If you had God's powers, how would you communicate with people?

[Larniavc]

A human toddler and a burning building is not analogous to a human adult and Christian understanding of "to judge the living and the dead" CF Statement of Faith | Christian Forums.

I see!

What I was using the burning building to represent was Hell. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[BigV]

thank you.
the good German soldier that went out to war and then, all of a sudden, became bad?
War changed them as opposed to their hearts?
I doubt this though.
Let Jesus decide this again.

How people can be brought around to support war: incite fear of attack | MinnPost

Here’s Goering’s reply:

“Why, of course, the people don’t want war,” Goering shrugged. “Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood.

“But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.”

“There is one difference,” [Gilbert] pointed out. “In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.”

“Oh, that is all well and good, [replied Goering] but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.”

So, yes, an otherwise decent human can be made a killer. It happens more often that people are willing to admit.

 

[BigV]

You mean, you took that statement literally? Did you also take literally the part about tapping a memo to my forehead every day so I remember something needless?

How ironic that you missed my allegorical statement.

(I'm learning to play your game)

 

[2PhiloVoid]

How ironic that you missed my allegorical statement.

(I'm learning to play your game)

It's really not my game, and I've found atheists and skeptics to be much my superior in playing games.

 

[dlamberth]

Can anyone tell me how people ceasing to believe in a Creator helps this boy?

Personally, I don't see how it hurts him.

 

[cvanwey]

It's really not my game, and I've found atheists and skeptics to be much my superior in playing games.

Wow, nice stereotype Now, coming from a skeptic, mind you, I must ask...

We were engaged in a resurrection thread a month or two ago. You stated you were done with the apologetics forum. You then bowed out. And yet, here [you] are... You later stated you were only going to engage, under very specific circumstances... Namely w/ new members, or other extenuating circumstances....

But here you still are, continuing to apply daily posts with existing members, in the apologetics forum? Not that I mind. I rather enjoy your interaction. However...

I'm not going to 'stereotype' theists in general, but as @BigV has demonstrated, he, as well as I, are learning [your] games

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Wow, nice stereotype Now, coming from a skeptic, mind you, I must ask...

We were engaged in a resurrection thread a month or two ago. You stated you were done with the apologetics forum. You then bowed out. And yet, here [you] are... You later stated you were only going to engage, under very specific circumstances... Namely w/ new members, or other extenuating circumstances....

But here you still are, continuing to apply daily posts with existing members, in the apologetics forum? Not that I mind. I rather enjoy your interaction. However...

I'm not going to 'stereotype' theists in general, but as @BigV has demonstrated, he, as well as I, are learning [your] games

Oh my! I am still here aren't I?

 

[cvanwey]

Oh my! I am still here aren't I?

Yes, and like I told you then. It's hard to leave, isn't it? CF is your 'drug' of choice, just admit it

 

[thomas_t]

Surely a scene of that majesty has to be the work of Jupiter.

For me, it's a beautiful landscape. My explanation: it's a loving God that made it for us to feel well.
Jupiter - is that a God of love?
I doubt that.

I agree with @MrsFoundit concerning your points 1-4.

Why? Would it help the boy if we did all believe in God?

would you help the boy? I mean if you could? Make a donation perhaps to an organism that could save the boy? There are many good (often Christian) organizations around helping this poor boy.

Thomas

 

[thomas_t]

So, yes, an otherwise decent human can be made a killer. It happens more often that people are willing to admit.

otherwise decent human, you say? How come that 50+% of Germans voted for Hitler 1933 indeed?
When I learned this I would never say they were decent.

 

[BigV]

otherwise decent human, you say? How come that 50+% of Germans voted for Hitler 1933 indeed?
When I learned this I would never say they were decent.

Well, do you remember US Secretary of State, Madeleine Albright saying the price (of US Sanctions killing 500,000 Iraqi children) is worth it. She is an otherwise decent woman, but has no moral qualms about bearing some responsibility for the dead Iraqis.

Hitler too was not elected strictly on his anti-semitic views. Hitler was popular, in my opinion, because he was able to rebuild Germany after Germany was put into a very difficult economic position following WWI.

It's little different than what is happening today in the Ukraine. The (generally pro democracy) West supported a violent overthrow of Yanukovych government during the 2013-2014 revolution. In addition to the West, many people in the Ukraine supported the revolutionaries even while not necessarily agreeing with all their views (many of the revolutionaries were neo-Nazis, anti-semites, etc...).

 

[thomas_t]

Hitler too was not elected strictly on his anti-semitic views.

Antisemitism wasn't his only problem. He had many of them.

So you say they were all decent people. @InterestedAtheist says a loving God must not send people to hell... everyone is supposed to go to heaven instead if I get him right.
However, the ones voting for Hitler present a danger to the victims of National Socialism who are not limited to Jews only. The perpetrators could try to kill again.
Insinuating that they must share the same heaven, if I get you right, would mean heaven for the perpetrators and hell for the victims, I think. That's not fair and that's not a concludent theology, as I see it.

Moreover, when you say (only) bad situations make criminals... how come that there are many rich criminals, too? fraud, corruption and more

 

[BigV]

Antisemitism wasn't his only problem. He had many of them.

So you say they were all decent people. @InterestedAtheist says a loving God must not send people to hell... everyone is supposed to go to heaven instead if I get him right.
However, the ones voting for Hitler present a danger to the victims of National Socialism who are not limited to Jews only. The perpetrators could try to kill again.
Insinuating that they must share the same heaven, if I get you right, would mean heaven for the perpetrators and hell for the victims, I think. That's not fair and that's not a concludent theology, as I see it.

Moreover, when you say (only) bad situations make criminals... how come that there are many rich criminals, too? fraud, corruption and more

In my opinion, you have a very rigid black and white type thinking about morality. Very few people are all evil. Hitler was in power for only a few years. Yes, he was responsible for the Holocaust and for the millions of dead civilians. But before he was a Nazi party leader, he probably led a normal life, and I would be surprised if I learned that Hitler killed some Jews before he was officially elected into office. And I would be even more surprised if the people voting for Hitler had any killings before they became part of the military.

Which is sort of my point, that our circumstances make us who we are to a great extent If Hitler was never elected and never came to power, perhaps he would be just an average Adolf.

At the end of the day, all wars are about money. And if Hitler did not set out to deliberately kill all the Jews, I doubt he would be considered the villain he is today.

Btw, I would like to ask you about Hell. Do you believe it's eternal torture? If so, how could God be loving and create Hell, where as Hitler never tortured people eternally and is considered to be one of the worst villains of history?

 

[MrsFoundit]

In my opinion, you have a very rigid black and white type thinking about morality. Very few people are all evil. Hitler was in power for only a few years. Yes, he was responsible for the Holocaust and for the millions of dead civilians. But before he was a Nazi party leader, he probably led a normal life, and I would be surprised if I learned that Hitler killed some Jews before he was officially elected into office. And I would be even more surprised if the people voting for Hitler had any killings before they became part of the military.

Which is sort of my point, that our circumstances make us who we are to a great extent If Hitler was never elected and never came to power, perhaps he would be just an average Adolf.

At the end of the day, all wars are about money. And if Hitler did not set out to deliberately kill all the Jews, I doubt he would be considered the villain he is today.

Btw, I would like to ask you about Hell. Do you believe it's eternal torture? If so, how could God be loving and create Hell, where as Hitler never tortured people eternally and is considered to be one of the worst villains of history?

Reported.

 

[thomas_t]

you have a very rigid black and white type thinking about morality.

ad hominem, but fortunatly @MrsFoundit was by my side in #194 (unless she reported for the comparison Hitler-God).

Very few people are all evil.

I don't judge anyone. I don't say someone is all evil.
I said people who killed once might kill twice.
For their former victims, any heaven together with the then perpetrators will be the same as hell, I suppose.

Btw, I would like to ask you about Hell. Do you believe it's eternal torture? If so, how could God be loving and create Hell, where as Hitler never tortured people eternally and is considered to be one of the worst villains of history?

I'm against all comparison between Hitler and God. So I permit myself to leave your question open.
However, you seem to be insinuating that God must send evildoers to heaven to dwell there eternally, after they spent a short term in hell? This is everlasting hell for their former victims. Even if they had a comparitively short time of rest (when their enemies were in hell). God couldn't be this unfair.

I would be surprised if I learned that Hitler killed some Jews before he was officially elected into office.

In "Mein Kampf" he announced beforehand that it is necessary to fight the Jewish "parasites" - he meant all Jews. (source: German wikipedia article about Mein Kampf)
Also in that book, before he was elected into power, he announced that he would lead wars once in power.
This is enough to know.

Hitler was a criminal before. (see German wikipedia Article about Hitler (German article for me was simpler to read quickly):
"Am 14. September 1921 störten er und seine Anhänger gewaltsam eine Veranstaltung des separatistischen Bayernbunds im Münchner Löwenbräukeller. Dabei wurde dessen Gründer Otto Ballerstedt schwer verletzt und zeigte ihn an. Hitler wurde am 12. Januar 1922 wegen Landfriedensbruchs und Körperverletzung zu drei Monaten Haft verurteilt. Er verbüßte in Stadelheim[94] einen Monat davon; der Strafrest wurde bis 1926 zur Bewährung ausgesetzt. Beim späteren „Röhm-Putsch“ (1934) ließ Hitler Ballerstedt ermorden.[95][96]")

 

[thomas_t]

Yes, he was responsible for the Holocaust and for the millions of dead civilians. But before he was a Nazi party leader, he probably led a normal life, [...]

Which is sort of my point, that our circumstances make us who we are to a great extent

this is playing down the Holocaust, in my opinion.
Being responsible for it can never be the result of "circumstances" "to a great extent", please.
Circumstances never can excuse such a crime.

 

[dlamberth]

There is a God. He is just not popular.

I take issue with this statement.
As I look around the world, there are billions and billions of us who have found God.

 

[MrsFoundit]

ad hominem, but fortunatly @MrsFoundit was by my side in #194 (unless she reported for the comparison Hitler-God).

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[InterestedAtheist]

For me, it's a beautiful landscape. My explanation: it's a loving God that made it for us to feel well.
Jupiter - is that a God of love?
I doubt that.

I agree with @MrsFoundit concerning your points 1-4.

would you help the boy? I mean if you could? Make a donation perhaps to an organism that could save the boy? There are many good (often Christian) organizations around helping this poor boy.

Thomas

I'm afraid, Thomas, that your reply doesn't really stand up.
"For me, it's a beautiful landscape. My explanation: it's a loving God that made it for us to feel well."
I'm sorry, but what you feel to be true just doesn't count. You just dismiss my intuition that Jupiter made it? Good. That is the correct thing to do. And now you see why your own carries no more weight.

It seems that you have misunderstood what Attenborough was saying. Perhaps you could demonstrate that you did by explaining his meaning, in your own words?

I think that your question about whether I would help the boy is, at best, a distraction from our debate here, and I don't feel like following a red herring. I'd rather hold you to the question and see if you can defend your argument.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I take issue with this statement.
As I look around the world, there are billions and billions of us who have found God.

"Billions and billions" is stretching it a bit. Considering that there are about two billion Christians in the world (most of whom disagree with each other about just about everything) it would be more accurate to say "there are hundreds of millions of Christians." Or, if you like, there are a billion and a billion.
Besides, many people would say that most of these aren't true Christians.