"If you could lose your salvation, you would."

[Emli]

Wut?

It's a paraphrase on Paul's writings. It's all in Scripture. Look it up!

 

[Tree of Life]

It's a paraphrase on Paul's writings. It's all in Scripture. Look it up!

Apparently in your view Scripture is not understandable. Why look it up?

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I do know Scripture, and it says that only those who persevere until the end will be saved.

But a friend who was raised a Christian, and who I know was once saved....

Those two statements contradict each other. She didn't persevere to the end. Therefore she wasn't saved.

 

[Emli]

Apparently in your view Scripture is not understandable. Why look it up?

It's discerned by the Spirit of God. It's just not understandable with our humans minds.
1 Corinthians 2:14
Proverbs 3:5
John 16:13

So ask the Spirit to teach you.

 

[Emli]

Those two statements contradict each other. She didn't persevere to the end. Therefore she wasn't saved.

I think that depends on what your view on salvation is. I was just considering that. Is it something that happens when you are born-again, something that happens continually or when you die?

I haven't studied this in depth yet. So I can't answer your question. But I do know both statements are true. And that if I were to deny Christ, leave the faith, and start living like the world, I wouldn't go to Heaven either.

 

[razzelflabben]

I'll try to be more clear. The Scriptures teach that when God saves a person he renews their minds and hearts such that they freely choose him. They cannot help but choose him. Once this regeneration occurs, a person can never go back. They cannot lose their salvation because they will not reject Jesus. Their hearts are bound to him and they will always freely choose him.

so you believe that we have no choice in ourselves whether we follow God and accept Him or not. I know there are people who believe that but I find it contrary to so many passages I can't accept it as truth which means we will disagree on pretty much everything from that point on.

If I am misunderstanding you I apologize in advance. It's how I am understanding what you are writing here and nothing in my response is trying to reinvent your argument. You talk about when god saves a person He renews their mind and heart, amen but then you talk about they are freely choosing Him...but cannot help but choose Him...if they can't help but choose Him they have no choice in the first place. then you go on to talk about them losing their right to choose which you just said they didn't have in the first place and you offer no passages that show we loose our right to push God away after coming in faith believing...it's all very confusing which is why I am doing my best to not reinvent your argument and why I apologize in advance if I misunderstand what you are trying to say.

I disagree.



This is a mess of non-sequiturs.

you can disagree all you want and you can call it any 1000 dollar word you want but until you answer the question we have nothing more to talk about on the topic. It's a simple question and until or unless you answer it there is no place our conversation can go except flaming which I would love to avoid.

1. These Hebrew Christians found repentance and forgiveness formerly through the sacrificial system and Levitical priesthood. But after the message of the gospel came to them, they could no longer return to this obsolete system. They cannot return to repentance outside of Christ.

but that is not what Heb. 6 says...it says that to do so makes Christ's sacrifice meaningless....

2. Jesus died for our salvation.

yep...and these in Heb. 6 cannot return to the forgiveness they once had because to do so would mean that Jesus death had no meaning. IOW's Jesus died for nothing....not Jesus died so you could still be bound to the Law...cause you see, for those Jews, salvation was in the animal sacrifices. To return without salvation would mean they never had salvation/forgiveness of sin under the old law in the first place which scripture clearly says they did.

 

[Tree of Life]

It's discerned by the Spirit of God. It's just not understandable with our humans minds.
1 Corinthians 2:14
Proverbs 3:5
John 16:13

So ask the Spirit to teach you.

How can he teach me if I can't understand it?

 

[razzelflabben]

Wut?

Lean not on your own understanding but in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths...Prov.

II Cor. 10...3 For though we live in the body, we do not wage war in an unspiritual way, 4 since the weapons of our warfare but are powerful through God for the demolition of strongholds. We demolish arguments 5 and every high-minded thing that is raised up against the knowledge of God, taking every thought captive to obey Christ. 6 And we are ready to punish any disobedience, once your obedience has been confirmed.

 

[Emli]

How can he teach me if I can't understand it?

Because He understands it.

 

[I'm_Sorry]

John MacArthur is a Calvinist right?

TULIP.

Do Calvinists believe that salvation is entirely God's work and that "choice" is not possible.

E.g. Predetermined to be saved, elect

 

[razzelflabben]

I think that depends on what your view on salvation is. I was just considering that. Is it something that happens when you are born-again, something that happens continually or when you die?

I haven't studied this in depth yet. So I can't answer your question. But I do know both statements are true. And that if I were to deny Christ, leave the faith, and start living like the world, I wouldn't go to Heaven either.

Philippians 2:12
1 Thessalonians 5:8
Hebrews 1:14
Hebrews 5:9
I Peter 2:2
Revelation 12:10
these passages and others seem to suggest it is an ongoing work of the Living God.

 

[razzelflabben]

How can he teach me if I can't understand it?

One of the jobs of the Holy Spirit is to teach us what the fleshly mind with it's deceptive thoughts cannot understand. which means you need to seek Him and His wisdom which He promises to all who ask.

 

[David Kent]

And still, whoever will be saved, was chosen by God before the foundation of the world.

• John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Everlasting cannot mean anything but everlasting. Once you have everlasting life it is everlasting/

 

[Houston Watson]

I recently came across this quote from John MacArthur. I don't love everything from him (see footnotes on dispensationalism), but I thought that this hit the nail on the head.

It's the simplest and best argument for OSAS (aside from its overwhelming Scriptural evidence) that I can think of.

How can anyone who is truly saved deny this? If you truly know the power of God and the depths of your own sin, how can you deny this?

You'd have to say something like:

"Well I wouldn't lose my salvation because I'm determined!" or
"I wouldn't lose my salvation because I'm smart!",
"I had a good upbringing!",
"I'm stronger than most!"​

Isn't it much better to say:

"If I am saved at all it is because the marvelous strength and grace of God which he continually supplies me"?​

To say that you can lose your salvation (as if some part of it depends on you), and then to hope that you won't lose your salvation (because, after all, you're pretty serious about God) is the height of arrogance!

The possibility of losing salvation is not implying an inevitability to lose it exists. If you are saved, baptized, and a member of the Church, but then convert to another religion 20 years later and kill Christians you are no longer saved. There are many people who are saved early in their life but later reject God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ. The renounce everything. They are no longer saved. If OSAS was the case, then it encourages a "one and done" attitude, that once you are saved you can never lose that salvation, and thus can do whatever, regardless of its sinfulness. Perhaps I misunderstand the thinking, but to me it seems like OSAS is not a good way of going about salvation. The Bible is clear that the path to salvation requires both parties, God and man, to consent. Those who believe Christ is the savior and attempt to lead a righteous life are saved as a result of God's grace. However, God would not grant his grace to a person who was once saved then turned away and no longer met any of the requirements for salvation on their part. Is there any Biblical evidence to suggest OSAS is the case?

 

[SkyWriting]

To say that you can lose your salvation (as if some part of it depends on you), and then to hope that you won't lose your salvation (because, after all, you're pretty serious about God) is the height of arrogance!

God's forgiveness and your salvation is over and done.
If you reject God and his gift, that is the one unforgivable sin.

 

[Emli]

Philippians 2:12
1 Thessalonians 5:8
Hebrews 1:14
Hebrews 5:9
I Peter 2:2
Revelation 12:10
these passages and others seem to suggest it is an ongoing work of the Living God.

Thank you for this! I've been thinking that, but I couldn't back it up.

 

[Emli]

• John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Everlasting cannot mean anything but everlasting. Once you have everlasting life it is everlasting/

The everlasting life begins after we have been raised from the dead and received our new bodies. We're not there yet.

 

[I'm_Sorry]

The everlasting life begins after we have been raised from the dead and received our new bodies. We're not there yet.

It doesn't begin at baptism?

John 3:36

What is eternal life?

 

[icxn]

I believe that's actually false humility.

I know that I am His sheep, because His sheep hear His voice, and I hear His voice.

If I were a goat, I wouldn't know Christ. And I wouldn't be saved. And since I know Christ, I know I am saved, how then would I ever be able to define myself as a goat?

I would be going against His Word, which, I guess, would make me a goat...

I confused myself...

It's a paradox. In my opinion our salvation is the subject of hope not certainty this side of the grave. Still, it's not unlikely for someone to receive assurance of his salvation on occasion, God's mercy is boundless. I also, don't think that placing yourself with the goats means you are not going to be saved, I have Luke 14:10 as a proof.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Dear ToL, please bear with me, I too am a Presbyterian, but want to respond from the position I once held, for many many years.

I recently came across this quote from John MacArthur. I don't love everything from him (see footnotes on dispensationalism), but I thought that this hit the nail on the head.

It's the simplest and best argument for OSAS (aside from its overwhelming Scriptural evidence) that I can think of.

How can anyone who is truly saved deny this? If you truly know the power of God and the depths of your own sin, how can you deny this?

You'd have to say something like:

"Well I wouldn't lose my salvation because I'm determined!" or
"I wouldn't lose my salvation because I'm smart!",
"I had a good upbringing!",
"I'm stronger than most!"​

There are Scriptures that would seem to suggest a person could loose their salvation, passages from the book of Hebrews comes to mind, and I only mention this because if this issue were so obviously black and white, far fewer would deny the doctrine of the perseverance of the Saints (P). In reality, I do not think many who deny P believe or think of themselves as smarter, stronger, or better, and it could be argued that because they believe salvation can be removed from them, or they could choose to jump ship, that it is arrogant to think otherwise, especially when those holding (P) speak of free will using the same language.​

Isn't it much better to say:

"If I am saved at all it is because the marvelous strength and grace of God which he continually supplies me"?​

It is Biblical to say.​

To say that you can lose your salvation (as if some part of it depends on you), and then to hope that you won't lose your salvation (because, after all, you're pretty serious about God) is the height of arrogance!

It is unbiblical, but I wouldn't call it arrogance, it's actually a point of humility and for those who believe it, does more to humble a person, with Godly fear. So far as arrogance goes, none of us are immune. OSAS does not stick without at least first establishing T, and U is very nearly as important to establish before P. Before I became a Calvinist, I always thought those who professed both free will and OSAS were the most arrogant of all Christians. I had to be shown the defects of my views on sin and grace before I came around to embrace P.