"If you could lose your salvation, you would."

[Tree of Life]

Non OSAS teaching says that one cannot loss what they never had...aka genuine salvation.

So are you saying that once a person has genuine salvation that they cannot lose it?

 

[razzelflabben]

I completely agree. That's why I don't like the term. I believe all terms like that limit the understanding of Scripture. So does rhetorics and arguments in general.

funny thing, today I finished a study on the power of God to break stronghold arguments....short version, immersing ourselves in a rightly divided word of God and living out righteousness are the main keys to avoiding being deceived by well sounding arguments and divisive words that refuse truth.

 

[razzelflabben]

So are you saying that once a person has genuine salvation that they cannot lose it?

Heb. 6 seems to say that we can give it back...notice I did NOT say "loss" it because nothing is lost. Scripture uses the word "fall away" which I am not sure is a good translation either. We can give it back or reject Christ after genuine salvation as best I can tell from scripture.

 

[Tree of Life]

Heb. 6 seems to say that we can give it back...notice I did NOT say "loss" it because nothing is lost. Scripture uses the word "fall away" which I am not sure is a good translation either. We can give it back or reject Christ after genuine salvation as best I can tell from scripture.

For all intents and purposes, let's say that "lose", "give back", "fall away", "reject", "sin unto death", etc all mean the same thing. I really don't see a relevant difference in these terms for this discussion.

I think Hebrews 6 is not talking about those who are genuinely saved, but talking about apostates who were once part of the church and yet apostatized. He turns from describing apostates to describing those who are genuinely saved in Hebrews 6:9.

 

[razzelflabben]

For all intents and purposes, let's say that "lose", "give back", "fall away", "reject", "sin unto death", etc all mean the same thing. I really don't see a relevant difference in these terms for this discussion.

so let's go back to the analogy I gave, you seriously don't see any difference between the guy hanging off the cliff trying to hold on and willfully letting go and even struggling to get out of my grip? How is it you can't see a difference there?

I think Hebrews 6 is not talking about those who are genuinely saved, but talking about apostates who were once part of the church and yet apostatized. He turns from describing apostates to describing those who are genuinely saved in Hebrews 6:9.

I know that most OSAS people believe as you do about Heb. 6 but as I have pointed out many times that is not what the passage says in context. There are several things that clue us in to these being true...genuine believers but one that I would love for someone like you to answer for me is how we can return to something we never had in the first place?

and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Notice they are not able to return to repentance which is required for genuine salvation...but also notice that to do so would be to crucify Christ all over again...why was Christ crucified if not for genuine salvation?

 

[Emli]

I didn't lose my salvation, because even though I sinned more than what I thought God would forgive, I kept the faith, I kept trusting in Jesus Christ, and I'm still saved. I've been growing constantly since I became a Christian.
But a friend who was raised a Christian, and who I know was once saved, as in having the Holy Spirit and saving faith, lost her salvation, because she left, and she isn't coming back. I saw her fall further and further away from God, and then she married an atheist, and there's no light in her now. And I asked God in prayer, and eventually got the answer that she isn't coming back. Because it's about faith. She rejected Truth, because she didn't want to live according to His commandments.

I don't know a lot about theology, but I do know Scripture, and it says that only those who persevere until the end will be saved. And even many who believe that they are saved, aren't.
But for someone who is truly living for God, like I know I am, I know He would never let me go. He doesn't allow us to fall away, nothing can snatch us out of His hands or separate us from His love. Unless we start denying Him, and then keep denying Him, then He will deny us. 2 Timothy 2:12 Peter came back to Christ, but Judas didn't.

 

[Tree of Life]

so let's go back to the analogy I gave, you seriously don't see any difference between the guy hanging off the cliff trying to hold on and willfully letting go and even struggling to get out of my grip? How is it you can't see a difference there?

In your analogy, there is a difference between someone holding onto the cliff savior and someone letting go of the cliff savior. Now how do you think that this analogically relates to our relationship with Jesus?

I know that most OSAS people believe as you do about Heb. 6 but as I have pointed out many times that is not what the passage says in context. There are several things that clue us in to these being true...genuine believers but one that I would love for someone like you to answer for me is how we can return to something we never had in the first place?

I think that the "restore them again to repentance" refers to trying to find repentance and forgiveness in some other way than in Christ - namely in the Jewish sacrifices. The audience of Hebrews is a group of Jewish Christians who are contemplating returning to Judaism. The author says something similar in Hebrews 10:26-27:

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

He says here that a sacrifice "no longer remains" for sins outside of Christ. Repentance and forgiveness cannot be found outside of him. Some of the Hebrew Christians were tempted to look outside of Christ for this.

 

[razzelflabben]

I didn't lose my salvation, because even though I sinned more than what I thought God would forgive, I kept the faith, I kept trusting in Jesus Christ, and I'm still saved. I've been growing constantly since I became a Christian.
But a friend who was raised a Christian, and who I know was once saved, as in having the Holy Spirit and saving faith, lost her salvation, because she left, and she isn't coming back. I saw her fall further and further away from God, and then she married an atheist, and there's no light in her now. And I asked God in prayer, and eventually got the answer that she isn't coming back. Because it's about faith. She rejected Truth, because she didn't want to live according to His commandments.

I don't know a lot about theology, but I do know Scripture, and it says that only those who persevere until the end will be saved. And even many who believe that they are saved, aren't.
But for someone who is truly living for God, like I know I am, I know He would never let me go. He doesn't allow us to fall away, nothing can snatch us out of His hands or separate us from His love. Unless we start denying Him, and then keep denying Him, then He will deny us. 2 Timothy 2:12 Peter came back to Christ, but Judas didn't.

exactly...Amen and AMEN

 

[Tree of Life]

I didn't lose my salvation, because even though I sinned more than what I thought God would forgive, I kept the faith, I kept trusting in Jesus Christ, and I'm still saved. I've been growing constantly since I became a Christian.

Would you attribute this keeping of the faith to your own virtues? Did you keep the faith because you are particularly faithful?

 

[FenderTL5]

I suppose one could say that once you cross the finish line, you never have to run the race anymore.

 

[icxn]

The humble person who is saved does not assume he is (saved):

Quote from the Desert Fathers:

Some visitors came to the Thebaid one day to visit an old man, bringing one possessed with a devil that he might heal him. When they persistently asked him, the old man said to the devil, "Come out of God's creature." And the devil said to the old man, "I am going to come out, but I am going to ask you a question. Tell me, who are the goats and who are the sheep?" The old man said, "I am one of the goats, but as for the sheep, God alone knows who they are." When he heard this, the devil began to cry out with a loud voice, "Because of your humility, I am driven away!" and he departed at the same hour.​

 

[razzelflabben]

In your analogy, there is a difference between someone holding onto the cliff savior and someone letting go of the cliff savior. Now how do you think that this analogically relates to our relationship with Jesus?

someone...if memory serves it was you that spoke about not being able to hold onto our salvation...but we aren't talking about whether we have the strength to hold onto our salvation, that is God's job...we are talking about those that willfully refuse and thus let go, just like in the analogy.

I think that the "restore them again to repentance" refers to trying to find repentance and forgiveness in some other way than in Christ - namely in the Jewish sacrifices. The audience of Hebrews is a group of Jewish Christians who are contemplating returning to Judaism. The author says something similar in Hebrews 10:26-27:

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

He says here that a sacrifice "no longer remains" for sins outside of Christ. Repentance and forgiveness cannot be found outside of him. Some of the Hebrew Christians were tempted to look outside of Christ for this.

You aren't answering the question but deferring it to another topic....there is nothing about trying to repent or finding another way...it simply says they cannot return to repentance...that is they once had repentance and now cannot return because to do so would be to crucify Christ again...

So if we are to take this as your answer to the question then we would have to conclude that you do not believe that Jesus death on the cross was for our salvation and the forgiveness of sin that is part of that salvation. Nor do you believe that we are forgiven when we believe unto salvation....which I really can't believe you really believe....so how about trying the question again.

IOW's where some of what you say is sound it does not answer the questions of 1. how can we return to something we never had in the first place and 2. what did Jesus die for if not our salvation which includes the forgiveness of sins?

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

“ Love God and live as you please “ St. Augustine

 

[Emli]

Would you attribute this keeping of the faith to your own virtues? Did you keep the faith because you are particularly faithful?

Not in the slightest! I have no virtues on my own, trust me!

Nor am I particularly faithful. I stray and sin all the time. But I trust in God, I don't wander from the Truth that He has taught me. I believe in His promises to us. Is that my own doing? No, everything is His doing!

But it's my choice, and I choose to to persevere in faith no matter what. What that looks like, it's up to God. And I think our choice to turn from our sinfulness and choose to follow Him (by His Spirit and power, not our own) is the only thing that we can take credit for.

And still, whoever will be saved, was chosen by God before the foundation of the world.

 

[Tree of Life]

someone...if memory serves it was you that spoke about not being able to hold onto our salvation...but we aren't talking about whether we have the strength to hold onto our salvation, that is God's job...we are talking about those that willfully refuse and thus let go, just like in the analogy.

I'll try to be more clear. The Scriptures teach that when God saves a person he renews their minds and hearts such that they freely choose him. They cannot help but choose him. Once this regeneration occurs, a person can never go back. They cannot lose their salvation because they will not reject Jesus. Their hearts are bound to him and they will always freely choose him.

You aren't answering the question but deferring it to another topic....there is nothing about trying to repent or finding another way...it simply says they cannot return to repentance...that is they once had repentance and now cannot return because to do so would be to crucify Christ again...

I disagree.

So if we are to take this as your answer to the question then we would have to conclude that you do not believe that Jesus death on the cross was for our salvation and the forgiveness of sin that is part of that salvation. Nor do you believe that we are forgiven when we believe unto salvation....which I really can't believe you really believe....so how about trying the question again.

This is a mess of non-sequiturs.

IOW's where some of what you say is sound it does not answer the questions of 1. how can we return to something we never had in the first place and 2. what did Jesus die for if not our salvation which includes the forgiveness of sins?

1. These Hebrew Christians found repentance and forgiveness formerly through the sacrificial system and Levitical priesthood. But after the message of the gospel came to them, they could no longer return to this obsolete system. They cannot return to repentance outside of Christ.

2. Jesus died for our salvation.

 

[Tree of Life]

Not in the slightest! I have no virtues on my own, trust me!

Nor am I particularly faithful. I stray and sin all the time. But I trust in God, I don't wander from the Truth that He has taught me. I believe in His promises to us. Is that my own doing? No, everything is His doing!

But it's my choice, and I choose to to persevere in faith no matter what. What that looks like, it's up to God. And I think our choice to turn from our sinfulness and choose to follow Him (by His Spirit and power, not our own) is the only thing that we can take credit for.

And still, whoever will be saved, was chosen by God before the foundation of the world.

Sounds to me like you don't know what you believe on this issue.

 

[Emli]

The humble person who is saved does not assume he is (saved):

Quote from the Desert Fathers:

Some visitors came to the Thebaid one day to visit an old man, bringing one possessed with a devil that he might heal him. When they persistently asked him, the old man said to the devil, "Come out of God's creature." And the devil said to the old man, "I am going to come out, but I am going to ask you a question. Tell me, who are the goats and who are the sheep?" The old man said, "I am one of the goats, but as for the sheep, God alone knows who they are." When he heard this, the devil began to cry out with a loud voice, "Because of your humility, I am driven away!" and he departed at the same hour.​

I believe that's actually false humility.

I know that I am His sheep, because His sheep hear His voice, and I hear His voice.

If I were a goat, I wouldn't know Christ. And I wouldn't be saved. And since I know Christ, I know I am saved, how then would I ever be able to define myself as a goat?

I would be going against His Word, which, I guess, would make me a goat...

I confused myself...

 

[Emli]

Sounds to me like you don't know what you believe on this issue.

I know exactly what I believe. But I also know that the things of God are spiritually discerned, and thus we cannot understand them with our natural mind. That's why I go by Scripture. If we try to simplify it to suit the flesh, it no longer makes sense to the Spirit.

 

[Tree of Life]

I know exactly what I believe. But I also know that the things of God are spiritually discerned, and thus we cannot understand them with our natural mind. That's why I go by Scripture. If we try to simplify it to suit the flesh, it no longer makes sense to the Spirit.

Wut?

 

[razzelflabben]

Not in the slightest! I have no virtues on my own, trust me!

Nor am I particularly faithful. I stray and sin all the time. But I trust in God, I don't wander from the Truth that He has taught me. I believe in His promises to us. Is that my own doing? No, everything is His doing!

But it's my choice, and I choose to to persevere in faith no matter what. What that looks like, it's up to God. And I think our choice to turn from our sinfulness and choose to follow Him (by His Spirit and power, not our own) is the only thing that we can take credit for.

And still, whoever will be saved, was chosen by God before the foundation of the world.

amen...beautiful answer.