If you cannot believe the genesis account....

[lucaspa]

What does this have to do with anything I've said? What?!?!?! I don't understand what you are trying to say...

You claimed: "Actually the 'serpent' was meant to be symbolic or a symbol for Satan... Satan has a couple of different names such as Dragon,Serpent,Devil."..

So, did you or did you not equate the serpent in Genesis 3 with Satan?

lucaspa: Sorry, but Revelation simply calls Satan a serpent; it doesn't mean that the serpent in Genesis 3 was Satan.

Ok then who was it? An actuall snake... Bahaha

If you didn't claim that the serpent was Satan above, you just did so here.

So, the rest of my post was offering consequences of the serpent being Satan. Remember, the serpent is stripped of its legs and there will be enmity between its descendents and Eve's forever. Well, if the serpent is Satan, stripping the legs makes it a snake, and if the serpent is Satan and the serpent has descendents, then it means Satan has descendents!

I'm not saying that it was an ACTUAL SNAKE. I'm saying that the 'serpent' is Satan. The serpent symbolizes Satan.. Just as the Dragon symbolizes Satan. Not that Satan is an actual snake or an actual dragon.

You said "the 'serpent' is Satan". Well, what happened to the serpent in Genesis 3:14-15? The "serpent" lost its legs (became legless and so a "snake" as we know them) and will have offspring! So, if the serpent = Satan, then those offspring are Satan's offspring! All the way to today! Present day snakes are therefore the great, great, great .... grandsons and grandaughters of Satan! Now, since DNA is inherited, it must mean that modern snakes have Satan's DNA. Just follow the logic.

OR ... if you don't like where the logic goes, then you can stop the whole thing by recognizing that the serpent in Eden is not Satan, but just "the serpent".

 

[JohnR7]

Well, what happened to the serpent in Genesis 3:14-15? The "serpent" lost its legs (became legless and so a "snake" as we know them) and will have offspring!

Satan was talking through the serpent. There are people on this board that satan talks through all the time. They are trying to create offspring also. They are seeking people to follow them in their rebellion against God. Does that mean they will have their legs ripped off? I know a pastor that says yes. During the tribulation period they will be given the choice to repent or lose their legs. The world will be under the law then, not under grace. Those who are to hard headed or head hearted (unloving) to repent will indeed lose their legs and maybe their arms to. There are muslim countrys that in part live under the law and the goverment there has no problem cutting body parts off of people. China of course does not cut off body parts, but we are told, they do cut out vital organs of convicted criminals and sell them to transplant patients. I think the cost is somewhere around $35,000.

 

[jobob]

Was Augustine bold-faced lying, dazed and confused, or too lazy to study the Hebrew?

could be......

wonder if I start digging how many names, historical and otherwise, that agree with 6 days?

There are a LOT of THEOLOGIANS who believe in old earth for sure.
Who cares, what does the text SAY.

MOST of the scholars of Hebrews of I looked at agree the wording says DAYS.
Just looking at Genesis 1:4-5, I think even thats enough for me to take it as a DAY.

Jesus isnt a ''door'' because He was using metaphor.

Genesis 1 means what it says because it went to great lengths to DEFINE and day and then show that these defined days were being used...

''a morning and and evening, the first day.''

If a ''DAY'' had not been so well laid out in the text, and the Hebrew wasnt laid out so plainly as defining a single earth rotation day, then maybe I would beleive different...

Was Augustine a Scholar of the ancient Hebrew language or a theologian?
there were a lot of ''theologians'' in Jesus' day who were wrong about the texts and what it REALLY said...
He called them Pharisee or Saducee....amoung a few others Im sure.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

could be......

wonder if I start digging how many names, historical and otherwise, that agree with 6 days?

There are a LOT of THEOLOGIANS who believe in old earth for sure.
Who cares, what does the text SAY.

MOST of the scholars of Hebrews of I looked at agree the wording says DAYS.
Just looking at Genesis 1:4-5, I think even thats enough for me to take it as a DAY.

Jesus isnt a ''door'' because He was using metaphor.

Genesis 1 means what it says because it went to great lengths to DEFINE and day and then show that these defined days were being used...

''a morning and and evening, the first day.''

How was there morning and evening before the sun was created?

If a ''DAY'' had not been so well laid out in the text, and the Hebrew wasnt laid out so plainly as defining a single earth rotation day, then maybe I would beleive different...

Where does the Bible ever refer to the rotation of the earth? As I said before Psalms refers to the circuit of the sun and the Bible says in several places that the earth is fixed and immobile so if they were refering to a 24 hour period it would seem that it was the period in which they thought the universe rotated around the earth.

the frumious Bandersnatch

 

[jobob]

Hi. I am 2)Dazed and confused, and 3)too lazy to study the Hebrew language. But quite happy to read the work of lots of other people who have studied and learnt Hebrew. There are so many good resources out there now. Even some good ones that look not only at the Hebrew language employed in Genisis 1, but also look at the cultural understanding of what Narrative, story, faith and theology had to do with each other. Personally, I tend towards the 1 day thing, but there are some very very good cases to be made out there for the idea that a scientific understanding of creation was not the intention of the writers. Yeah, thats what I believe. No I don't, I think that common near middle eastern myth of formlessness and void as part of the great cosmic battle suggest a gap between v1 and v2. NO Wait, it because of the words used Bara and the other one, yeah, 1 day, thats what I believe.
I think I just stood on the cat. But only ONE animal was slightly maimed during this post. John Drane who is not 1, 2 or 3 had some good stuff to say about that, but I can't remember where I put that book.

Ponderingly

(ok some small insects as well, but that was an accident.)

Well, just to give you a easy start if youre interested, do a search for ''Yom Genesis'' .

Yom is the Hebrew word rendered as ''day'' in Genesis 1.
There are other words that could have been used to show long periods of time, but for some reason the writer chosen yom...I think after some study, youll start to see why....

Rather that tearing at your gap theory and setting you on the defence, Ill let that alone for now and prayfully you will at least start your study of the details..

william

 

[Smidlee]

Not according to a literal reading of Job. God sits up in heaven and Satan is the one wandering about on earth. If Satan had wanted the sores to kill Job, there's nothing in the text of Job to suggest Satan could not have done that. As I said, Satan is God's betting buddy there, not the betrayer of the serpent in Genesis 3.
Job 1:12 "All right," the Lord said to Satan, "everything he has is in your power, but you must not hurt Job himself."

2:6 "So the Lord said to Satan, "All right, he is in your power, but you are not to kill him."

Of course, Satan then wins the bet, because Job begins cursing God, just as Satan predicted!

you are wrong since the scripture plainly teaches that God protected Job in Job 1:10 " hast not thou made an hedge about him..." (notice Job prayed for his children which also put them in his hedge)
why did God have a hedge around Job ? Simply because the freedom and power Satan has on this earth. Job1:7 " the Lord said unto Satan "Whence comest thou?" Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and for in the earth, and from walking up and down in it." In another words Satan can do as his pleased in this world EXCEPT when it come to the prayers of God's saints. Satan was angry with God because God interfered with his rule on this earth. Notice that Satan offer Jesus the kingdom of this world and Jesus didn't deny this claim. this is one reason why prayer is very important to a believer since it's by prayer God will overrule Satan on this earth.

 

[jobob]

How was there morning and evening before the sun was created?
Where does the Bible ever refer to the rotation of the earth? As I said before Psalms refers to the circuit of the sun and the Bible says in several places that the earth is fixed and immobile so if they were refering to a 24 hour period it would seem that it was the period in which they thought the universe rotated around the earth.

the frumious Bandersnatch

yee-ouch.........your total lack of study is showing FB........

I have an appt here in a few, but i can tell you to at least read Genesis 1 all the way thru like 50 times if you have to.....

drop the bias tho, and just read it or there wont be much point.

 

[Tomk80]

Satan was talking through the serpent.

Nope, according to the text it was the serpent speaking, not Satan through the serpent.

1 The serpent was craftier than any other wild creature that YHWH Elohim had made. It said to the woman, "Did Elohim say, 'You shall not eat of any tree of the garden'?" 2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden, 3 but Elohim did say, 'You cannot eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, nor can you touch it, or you will die.'" 4 But the serpent said to the woman, "You would not die. 5 Elohim said this because he knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like Elohim (gods/God), knowing good and evil."

There are people on this board that satan talks through all the time. They are trying to create offspring also. They are seeking people to follow them in their rebellion against God.

Go easy on the judging John, you just might be wrong.

Does that mean they will have their legs ripped off? I know a pastor that says yes. During the tribulation period they will be given the choice to repent or lose their legs. The world will be under the law then, not under grace. Those who are to hard headed or head hearted (unloving) to repent will indeed lose their legs and maybe their arms to. There are muslim countrys that in part live under the law and the goverment there has no problem cutting body parts off of people. China of course does not cut off body parts, but we are told, they do cut out vital organs of convicted criminals and sell them to transplant patients. I think the cost is somewhere around $35,000.

And this has absolutely ziltch to do with the rest of the topic.

 

[JohnR7]

If a ''DAY'' had not been so well laid out in the text, and the Hebrew wasnt laid out so plainly as defining a single earth rotation day, then maybe I would beleive different...

Genesis 2:4
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

Did God create it all in one day or in 6 days?

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Did Adam and Eve die the same day they ate the fruit. Or does day mean day, but die does not mean die?

Genesis 3:14c and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Why all of a sudden does "day" mean "days"? Is it because the word "all" is in front of the word "day"?

Genesis 5:4
And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

Why do we not see the word "all" used in front of the word "day" in this passage? The Bible does not say all the days of Adam, it refers to all of Adams life as a day.

Genesis 6:4a There were giants in the earth in those days;

In the Hebrew day again means more then one 24 hour day.

Genesis 14:1
And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of nations;

Are we talking about just one day in the life of the king of Shinar. Or does day here refer to his whole life or the time he was king?

 

[Tomk80]

yee-ouch.........your total lack of study is showing FB........

I have an appt here in a few, but i can tell you to at least read Genesis 1 all the way thru like 50 times if you have to.....

drop the bias tho, and just read it or there wont be much point.

Why don't you just answer Fruminous Bandersnatch's question, in stead of accusing him of bias and not reading the bible.

 

[JohnR7]

And this has absolutely ziltch to do with the rest of the topic.

It has everything to do with the topic. It shows how to handle the symbolism that we find in the Bible. In math you use A + B = C to represent something. If we were to take your approach, we would never get past leaning our letters to go on to learn how they are used in a mathmatical expression.

 

[Smidlee]

Where does the Bible ever refer to the rotation of the earth? As I said before Psalms refers to the circuit of the sun and the Bible says in several places that the earth is fixed and immobile so if they were refering to a 24 hour period it would seem that it was the period in which they thought the universe rotated around the earth.

the frumious Bandersnatch

Ecclesiastes 1:5 " the sun also riseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose."
Does this teach the sun goes around the earth? of course not since we ourselves still uses word like " Sunset" and "sunrise". when someone says something goes up and come down it almost always in reference to the ground since there isn't no up and down in space. Have you ever heard the saying "They are so heavenly minded that they're not any earthly good." so please keep your feet down here on earth since this is where the most people live. This is how the scriptures are written.
When common sense make sense then don't look for another way to interpret something.

 

[JohnR7]

i can tell you to at least read Genesis 1 all the way thru like 50 times if you have to.....

People still need the Holy Spirit of God to help understand the message that the Bible has for us today.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Ecclesiastes 1:5 " the sun also riseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose."
Does this teach the sun goes around the earth? of course not since we ourselves still uses word like " Sunset" and "sunrise". when someone says something goes up and come down it almost always in reference to the ground since there isn't no up and down in space. Have you ever heard the saying "They are so heavenly minded that they're not any earthly good." so please keep your feet down here on earth since this is where the most people live. This is how the scriptures are written.
When common sense make sense then don't look for another way to interpret something.

So not everything in the Bible is literal then. Common sense tells us that plants were not created before the sun so I guess we shouldn't interpret Genesis 1 as literal after all.

There are a number of verses that say the the earth is fixed. Do we still refer to the earth as fixed and immobile in common usage? It was certainly common sense that the earth didn't move until science showed otherwise.
1 Chronicles 16:30: " Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

There are other verses in which the sun moves

Psalm 19:4-6 Their line [the heavens] is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof." (I added the bold)

Is it common sense that the sun makes a circuit around the earth daily? It used to be common sense but common sense has changed hasn't it? Is it common sense that the sun heats the entire universe? It used to be common sense but now this verses is interpreted as poetry, except by people like Malcolm Bowden, a geocentrists who writes for TrueOrigins.

Now how is it that there was morning and evening in the days before the sun was created?

the frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Tomk80]

It has everything to do with the topic. It shows how to handle the symbolism that we find in the Bible. In math you use A + B = C to represent something. If we were to take your approach, we would never get past leaning our letters to go on to learn how they are used in a mathmatical expression.

Well yes, that's the approach which is argued in the opening post. If that was not what you were arguing, than consider my point made to others. According to a literal reading the serpent was talking, not Satan through the serpent. Every other reading is symbolic.

The rest of your post went on about people cutting of limbs as punishment, and whether God will remove parts from sinners at the time of judgement. That, however interesting, had very little to do with a literal or symbolic reading of the Genesis account, and had little to do with whether the serpent was the devil or a serpent. Maybe I'm just stupid (always a possibility ), but for me that was completely irrelevant.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

yee-ouch.........your total lack of study is showing FB........

I have an appt here in a few, but i can tell you to at least read Genesis 1 all the way thru like 50 times if you have to.....

What makes you think I haven't?

drop the bias tho, and just read it or there wont be much point.

In other words you can't answer the question.

the frumious Bandersnatch

 

[revolutio]

Frankly I don't see it as being necessary to take many of the Biblical stories as fact. Most of them seem like allegorical tales to begin with so the actual veracity of them has little bearing on the moral they are conveying.

 

[JohnR7]

for me that was completely irrelevant.

Of course it is not relevant for you, because you will not be here during the tribulation period. But for those who will be here, it is relevant. They need to know what they have to look forward to. Or at least I need to tell them and then once I have done that, it us up to them what to do with the information.

The only thing we need to be concerned with is if we do not deliver the message that God sends us to deliever. Once we deliver the message, then our job is done.

 

[JohnR7]

Frankly I don't see it as being necessary to take many of the Biblical stories as fact. Most of them seem like allegorical tales to begin with so the actual veracity of them has little bearing on the moral they are conveying.

I would tend to agree that the literal meaning is not the important one, compared to the "allegorical" meaning. It is still interesting how God can work in the lives of others and still there is a lesson in it for us.

 

[JohnR7]

So not everything in the Bible is literal then. Common sense tells us that plants were not created before the sun so I guess we shouldn't interpret Genesis 1 as literal after all.

The referance is to the way the firnament deals with the sun. Evolutionists believe you needed the plants to create the atmosphere before you could have animals. The Bible clearly shows a change in the atmosphere at this time.

1 Chronicles 16:30: " Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

Let us hope it is stable and can not be moved. Or we will end up either cooked or as a ice cube.