If You Believe in White Privilege

[Ana the Ist]

And you believe that white privilege is a significant factor in the disparity of wealth between whites and non-whites, and you are a white person living in the US....then please answer this question...

How much of your personal wealth can be directly attributed to "white privilege"? I'll be happy either with a flat number ( like 100,000$ for example) or a percentage (like 5% or 25%)....but don't just give me a number. I also want an explanation of how that number is tied to "white privilege". For example....

If you have some ancestor who was a slave owner, and he passed along 50,000$ to his son....who used it to build a restaurant and passed 250,000$ on to his child....and so on all the way to your father paying 150, 000$ to pay for your college education....then you've got a legitimate example. Just keep in mind if your grandfather went bankrupt when your daddy was just a child, that example no longer works.

Similarly, if you work a good job that pays well...and you know that the person who hired you is racist against non-whites and has turned down more qualified people than you because they aren't white (in other words, you really only got the job because you're white) then you also have a legitimate example.

The thing I've noticed is that so many people who believe that white privilege is a major factor in the disparity of wealth between the races....never really seem to think it accounts for their wealth. They always seem to think they worked hard for what they have, but there's this huge group of "other whites" who must've gotten their wealth from white privilege.

Looking forward to reading your examples!

 

[Ana the Ist]

Also, if you intend to respond with aome argument about how things like Jim Crow allowed whites to create wealth while holding blacks back from creating wealth (a sort of non-specific white privilege argument)....then you should probably read this first....

Black-white earnings gap remains at 1950s levels for median worker

The disparity of income is basically the same now as it was back under discriminatory laws. The disparity is smaller for top earners....but for the bottom end of earners, its actually larger than it was under racially discriminatory laws. So it's going to be hard to argue that the laws back then are the cause of differences in wealth that we see now. You can, of course still try to make that argument....I'm just trying to give you a heads up on how difficult it will be.

Then again, if you want to say "Gee...I guess white privilege can't really account for the differences in wealth between the races in modern times"....that's always an option. I hold those who can admit when they're wrong in higher esteem than those who can't.

 

[ripple the car]

What I *have* noticed after decades of working retail, is that bright, capable, hard-working, intelligent minorities with good leadership skills and a good head on their shoulders are less likely to be promoted by White superiors than mediocre-abled White people.

If one's place of employment was owned by African-Americans and a bright, hard-working White kid who'd make a just and equitable manager worked there, too, you might see the same behavior. But how many promotional opportunities are held out to people of color *by* Whites? This ties into what opportunities people have, and who gets to go up. You can live comfortably if you earn enough in retail, but you gotta go up. Often "going up" hinges both on your capacity to lead well *and* who is willing to give you a shot.

Just saying.

 

[Ana the Ist]

What I *have* noticed after decades of working retail, is that bright, capable, hard-working, intelligent minorities with good leadership skills and a good head on their shoulders are less likely to be promoted by White superiors than mediocre-abled White people.

This is absolutely true, and one of the aspects of white privilege that liberals never want to discuss. It has everything to do with the way racial bias affects perceptions....

Let's say an employer is subconsciously biased towards thinking that white workers are more competent than black workers. The obvious negative aspect of this bias is that they're leas likely to call a black person for an interview than they are a white person....even if they have the exact same resume. Liberals who are heavily invested in the whole white privilege narrative love making a big deal out of this. What they ignore though...is the way this perception affects them once they are hired.

Since expectations of the black employee are lower...they are looked at more favorably than the white worker for doing the exact same work. If a white employee and black employee are given the exact same task....and give exactly the same result for that task...the black employee is given more praise than the white employee. It's all because the expectations for the black employee were lower than the white employee....so even if they got the same result, the black employee is seen as having gone beyond the employers expectations while the white employee has merely met those expectations. The same effect can even be observed in other areas like schoolwork.

I don't know if liberals are aware of this and simply avoid discussing it because it doesn't fit the narrative they're puahing....or if they're just ignorant of it altogether. Regardless though, it's a good example of how any honest discussion of the benefits of white privilege are far more complicated and farcless substantial than progressives want to believe.

 

[Kentonio]

This is absolutely true, and one of the aspects of white privilege that liberals never want to discuss. It has everything to do with the way racial bias affects perceptions...

...

I don't know if liberals are aware of this and simply avoid discussing it because it doesn't fit the narrative they're puahing....or if they're just ignorant of it altogether. Regardless though, it's a good example of how any honest discussion of the benefits of white privilege are far more complicated and farcless substantial than progressives want to believe.

What are you even talking about? This is one of the fundamental parts of white privilege. It’s talked about constantly by liberals and progressives who discuss institutional racism and white privilege.

Have you actually tried talking to liberals instead of just making up your own version of what they might say?

 

[Ana the Ist]

What are you even talking about? This is one of the fundamental parts of white privilege. It’s talked about constantly by liberals and progressives who discuss institutional racism and white privilege.

Have you actually tried talking to liberals instead of just making up your own version of what they might say?

I've never seen the positive effects of white privilege for non-whites brought up by any liberal who talks about white privilege.

If you have, then good for you. If it's constantly talked about by liberals...then just give me a link to an article where they're talking about one of the ways white privilege benefits black people. I'll gladly read it. Fair warning though...the NYT and I'm pretty sure the Washington Times (maybe the post?) have limited me to 3 articles a month and I hit those limits a week or more ago.

 

[Allandavid]

Good grief....someone has very heavy barrow to push....

 

[Kentonio]

I've never seen the positive effects of white privilege for non-whites brought up by any liberal who talks about white privilege.

If you have, then good for you. If it's constantly talked about by liberals...then just give me a link to an article where they're talking about one of the ways white privilege benefits black people. I'll gladly read it. Fair warning though...the NYT and I'm pretty sure the Washington Times (maybe the post?) have limited me to 3 articles a month and I hit those limits a week or more ago.

Actually we had crossed wires there a moment. The post you replied to was about talented minorities being overlooked in favor of mediocre whites. You replied saying that was true, but then added a different point. I think we were talking at cross purposes.

 

[iluvatar5150]

And you believe that white privilege is a significant factor in the disparity of wealth between whites and non-whites, and you are a white person living in the US....then please answer this question...

How much of your personal wealth can be directly attributed to "white privilege"? I'll be happy either with a flat number ( like 100,000$ for example) or a percentage (like 5% or 25%)....but don't just give me a number. I also want an explanation of how that number is tied to "white privilege". For example....

If you have some ancestor who was a slave owner, and he passed along 50,000$ to his son....who used it to build a restaurant and passed 250,000$ on to his child....and so on all the way to your father paying 150, 000$ to pay for your college education....then you've got a legitimate example. Just keep in mind if your grandfather went bankrupt when your daddy was just a child, that example no longer works.

Similarly, if you work a good job that pays well...and you know that the person who hired you is racist against non-whites and has turned down more qualified people than you because they aren't white (in other words, you really only got the job because you're white) then you also have a legitimate example.

The thing I've noticed is that so many people who believe that white privilege is a major factor in the disparity of wealth between the races....never really seem to think it accounts for their wealth. They always seem to think they worked hard for what they have, but there's this huge group of "other whites" who must've gotten their wealth from white privilege.

Looking forward to reading your examples!

I think it probably accounts for a good chunk of my wealth.

None of my ancestors were rich or even affluent, but most did okay for themselves. My paternal grandparents both worked f/t - one as a civil servant - and did well enough to own a house in Brooklyn and a small vacation property upstate and send their 4 kids to Catholic school. My maternal side includes a ship captain, auction-house owner and a self-employed carpenter. One set of great-grandparents owned a large-ish tract of land that was then divided up among their children, and then again among some of their children, so we've got a whole redneck family compound near Albany. One cousin was a cop, so there was never any trouble acquiring or enjoying super-illegal-in-NY fireworks on July 4.

My parents always worked, owned a house, and paid for my education, so I entered the working world with zero debt.

None of my family was abused or restricted from jobs, housing, education, or wealth creation. The value of education and hard word was enforced, encouraged, and transferred across generations.

I have not been abused or restricted in any of these ways, either.

So, I would say that my personal wealth was allowed to grow due to my choices, unencumbered by the sort of abuse and discrimination that we're describing, and it was built on a solid foundation that was also unencumbered by that sort of abuse.

Also, if you intend to respond with aome argument about how things like Jim Crow allowed whites to create wealth while holding blacks back from creating wealth (a sort of non-specific white privilege argument)....then you should probably read this first....

Black-white earnings gap remains at 1950s levels for median worker

The disparity of income is basically the same now as it was back under discriminatory laws. The disparity is smaller for top earners....but for the bottom end of earners, its actually larger than it was under racially discriminatory laws. So it's going to be hard to argue that the laws back then are the cause of differences in wealth that we see now. You can, of course still try to make that argument....I'm just trying to give you a heads up on how difficult it will be.

Then again, if you want to say "Gee...I guess white privilege can't really account for the differences in wealth between the races in modern times"....that's always an option. I hold those who can admit when they're wrong in higher esteem than those who can't.

Or... the things set in motion decades ago take a long time to undo. I don't see how this article supports your contention. It's basically saying that the workforce has become more meritocratic with education being more important - but if blacks are still behind on educational attainment (and they are), they're still going to lag on earnings.

Why would today's black workers be behind on educational attainment? Maybe because we deprived their parents and grandparents of educations.

 

[tall73]

I think it probably accounts for a good chunk of my wealth.

None of my ancestors were rich or even affluent, but most did okay for themselves. My paternal grandparents both worked f/t - one as a civil servant - and did well enough to own a house in Brooklyn and a small vacation property upstate and send their 4 kids to Catholic school. My maternal side includes a ship captain, auction-house owner and a self-employed carpenter. One set of great-grandparents owned a large-ish tract of land that was then divided up among their children, and then again among some of their children, so we've got a whole redneck family compound near Albany. One cousin was a cop, so there was never any trouble acquiring or enjoying super-illegal-in-NY fireworks on July 4.

My parents always worked, owned a house, and paid for my education, so I entered the working world with zero debt.

None of my family was abused or restricted from jobs, housing, education, or wealth creation. The value of education and hard word was enforced, encouraged, and transferred across generations.

I have not been abused or restricted in any of these ways, either.

So, I would say that my personal wealth was allowed to grow due to my choices, unencumbered by the sort of abuse and discrimination that we're describing, and it was built on a solid foundation that was also unencumbered by that sort of abuse.



Or... the things set in motion decades ago take a long time to undo. I don't see how this article supports your contention. It's basically saying that the workforce has become more meritocratic with education being more important - but if blacks are still behind on educational attainment (and they are), they're still going to lag on earnings.

Why would today's black workers be behind on educational attainment? Maybe because we deprived their parents and grandparents of educations.

I assure you that having large tracts of land in the family, and graduating school with no debt, is not a default characteristic of whiteness.

Nor is it for any other race.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I assure you that having large tracts of land in the family, and graduating school with no debt, is not a default characteristic of whiteness.

Nor is it for any other race.

No, it isn’t. But they’re certainly more common in whites, and my ancestors were not blocked from them for the color of their skin the way many others were. Property ownership in the mid 20th century was the big driver of the growth in middle class wealth, and blacks were largely shut out of it.

 

[keith99]

I'll give it a try. Not that I believe the premise.

Still a 'privilege' freely extended to whites and very much kept from blacks played a significant part in my father choosing a financially rewarding life. Dad was talented but not all that dedicated a student. He ended up a machinist. A good but not great position. Then came WW II. He took advantage of the privilege of enlisting in the Navy in large part because of the threat of being drafted and ending up somewhere worse. He had 8 hours on, four hours off, 7 days a week for months at a time. When the only thing standing between you and the Japanese are the ships you are repairing keeping enough of those ships in fighting shape is sort of a priority.

Now some will say dad learned discipline in the service. Dad never told me anything like that. What he did learn is that officers got the good end of things and enlisted men got teh shaft, even if the officer had no useful skills and the enlisted man was a pretty good machinist. He made more small intelectual step. He realized the equivalent of the officer/enlisted gap was having a collage degree.

The end of the story is using the GI bill he went to college and ended up a dentist. Perhaps part white privilege, but a lot more of it was hard work.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I don't know. If it was easy to calculate, it probably wouldn't be such a contentious issue.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Let's say an employer is subconsciously biased ...

Since expectations of the black employee are lower...they are looked at more favorably than the white worker for doing the exact same work.

Do you have some evidence of this, or is this just a story you're telling yourself?

In the case of lowered expectations among teachers, it has been linked with lower performance.

In conclusion, our study offers causal evidence that teacher expectations matter. Negative teacher biases can function like self-fulfilling prophecies that affect college-going. Moreover, we find that teacher expectations differ by racial groups in a way that puts black students at a disadvantage, exacerbating racial achievement gaps. Our results also identify differences in how black and white teachers form expectations as one possible mechanism underlying the well-known finding that black students seem to perform better when they have black teachers.

 

[tall73]

No, it isn’t. But they’re certainly more common in whites, and my ancestors were not blocked from them for the color of their skin the way many others were. Property ownership in the mid 20th century was the big driver of the growth in middle class wealth, and blacks were largely shut out of it.

White privilege means very little to a white child growing up in poverty today. He doesn't get a boost from whites owning more property in the 1950's. His whiteness doesn't put food on the table. There was a lot more involved in your families situation than being white.

Also, we have to look at metrics for other populations such as Asian Americans. They also faced discrimination for some time in America, and in some cases still do. Yet they outpace whites on the whole. If discrimination were the only factor, that should not be the case. But even in that case, those are just trends. There is no individual benefit to a particular Asian child apart form his specific circumstances.

To say that members of groups have been discriminated against, and that there are lasting financial results is quite true. And fortunately such discrimination is now illegal, though it may still happen and need to be prosecuted. To say that all whites today are privileged is just divisive rhetoric.

Everyone is born into a particular situation and has to make the best of it from there. And very few people are born privileged in the American sense of things. On the worlds scale most Americans are privileged.

 

[iluvatar5150]

White privilege means very little to a white child growing up in poverty today. He doesn't get a boost from whites owning more property in the 1950's. His whiteness doesn't put food on the table.

No, but even controlling for other factors, blacks still face more obstacles just by virtue of being black.

There was a lot more involved in your families situation than being white.

Sure there was. But I listed things that helped me that were explicitly denied to blacks in the past because they were black. I could add family stability to that list, too.

Mind you, I didn’t grow up remotely close to “wealthy”. We were pretty solidly lower middle class, and at times probably worse off than that. But I wonder how much worse things could’ve been had my family been subject to the sorts of things black families were.

Also, we have to look at metrics for other populations such as Asian Americans. They also faced discrimination for some time in America, and in some cases still do. Yet they outpace whites on the whole. If discrimination were the only factor, that should not be the case. But even in that case, those are just trends. There is no individual benefit to a particular Asian child apart form his specific circumstances.

The treatment of Asians and blacks in the US isn’t remotely comparable.

 

[RDKirk]

I'll give it a try. Not that I believe the premise.

Still a 'privilege' freely extended to whites and very much kept from blacks played a significant part in my father choosing a financially rewarding life. Dad was talented but not all that dedicated a student. He ended up a machinist. A good but not great position. Then came WW II. He took advantage of the privilege of enlisting in the Navy in large part because of the threat of being drafted and ending up somewhere worse. He had 8 hours on, four hours off, 7 days a week for months at a time. When the only thing standing between you and the Japanese are the ships you are repairing keeping enough of those ships in fighting shape is sort of a priority.

You do realize, don't you, that during that time a black machinist would have been put in the galley or cleaning the wards...not assigned duty as a machinist?

 

[tall73]

The treatment of Asians and blacks in the US isn’t remotely comparable.

The comparison was to whites. Asians were discriminated against but still outperform whites.

 

[iluvatar5150]

The comparison was to whites. Asians were discriminated against but still outperform whites.

The demographics ofnthe populations are different. IIRC, 1st gen immigrants (not just East Asians, but Indians and Africans too) tend to outperform natives on a lot of metrics. After all, it takes a lot of moxy to move across the globe and rebuild your life. Additionally, there’s a selection bias built into the way we issue visas. If we only allow in educated, skilled immigrants, then yeah, they’ll outperform the average native.

 

[RDKirk]

The demographics ofnthe populations are different. IIRC, 1st gen immigrants (not just East Asians, but Indians and Africans too) tend to outperform natives on a lot of metrics. After all, it takes a lot of moxy to move across the globe and rebuild your life. Additionally, there’s a selection bias built into the way we issue visas. If we only allow in educated, skilled immigrants, then yeah, they’ll outperform the average native.

There is also a filter at work in the fact that certain people have the will to uproot and begin fresh in the first place. There is a natural selection at work in being willing to challenge the unknown.