If you are interested in my latest request for a HOLINESS forum ......

[cygnusx1]

Hi there friends , if you are interested in this request for a HOLINESS forum on CF then please support this proposal , I know it is an important subject and I believe many may benefit from research and interaction.

http://www.christianforums.com/t4619366-holiness-forum.html

thankyou for your support.

 

[jer3119]

Thank you brother for making this suggestion. I will certainly support you in it in any way I can.

Much Chritian love to you,
jer3119

 

[cygnusx1]

Thank you brother for making this suggestion. I will certainly support you in it in any way I can.

Much Chritian love to you,
jer3119

thanks brother!

it will make a change from Soteriology if we get enough interest.

 

[Iosias]

What would be discussed that could not be catered for already?

 

[cygnusx1]

What would be discussed that could not be catered for already?

I don't see anywhere on these forums where Holiness is debated , it is not a subject that is without difficulty , and certainly brevity on this issue is extremely unlikely ..... there are at least 5 theologies concerning Holiness/Sanctification , and that is not even considering the issue of Law and Grace.

so no , this subject is not catered for already , far from it. I don't recall anyone debating Romans 6 , 7 or 8 ... let alone Galatians and 1 John.

thanks for your question.

 

[jer3119]

I don't see anywhere on these forums where Holiness is debated , it is not a subject that is without difficulty , and certainly brevity on this issue is extremely unlikely ..... there are at least 5 theologies concerning Holiness/Sanctification , and that is not even considering the issue of Law and Grace.

so no , this subject is not catered for already , far from it. I don't recall anyone debating Romans 6 , 7 or 8 ... let alone Galatians and 1 John.

thanks for your question.

Well my brother, I don't see any great stampede from our reformed brothers and sisters to support a holiness forum.

And of the four replies in this forum, one is negative, AV1611, one is positive, jer 3119, and one is your own.

On the other thread where you suggest it there is a similar lack of support: 7 replies, 5 mine or yours, and a negative from Upon This Rock and AV1611.

There are those who bemoan their dryness (and those who don't even do this much), and thereby deceive themselves that they have addressed the source of it, while they debate endlessly (they think, for a day is coming when it will indeed end) the minutia of other, more important doctrines.

And why not, after all, since God is Sovereign, if He wanted me to be any more Holy, He would just make me so, wouldn't He.

Much Christian love, with sadness, to you, my brother,
for you remind me in some ways of that character in Bunyan's Pilgrims Progress, Valiant for Truth,
jer3119

It would seem, perhaps

 

[JimfromOhio]

Depends how you define "Holiness".

 

[jer3119]

Duplicate post by accident.

 

[jer3119]

Depends how you define "Holiness".

Which is exactly why a forum was proposed to discuss how to define it, Jim.

The lack of interest speaks volumes to me if not to you or to others.

Most here, with a few exceptions, already believes, apparently, they understand it well enough.

I think the real reason is that people don't like to be reminded of their sinfulness and their need to repent of THEIR SIN; much more entertaining and comforting to discuss our superior knowledge of these grand (and they are) doctrines of grace, rather than to move on with application of all the other doctrines taught in scripture, about mortification of sin, denying self, good works, etc. Much easier to, imply, if not speak openly, of what is wrong with the rest of the world, than to "examine ourselves, to see if we be in the faith."

I call it a form of self deception.

Much Christian love to you,
jer3119

 

[bradfordl]

The lack of interest speaks volumes to me if not to you or to others.

Do two weekend days of limited reply really prove a lack of interest? It appears you have a pet peeve, and are ever seeking proof of it, even where none exists.

As for me, I'd love to see a holiness forum. I'd like to know what it would consist of and it's aims. But if its just going to be a forum for brethren to accuse one another of this failing or that, then I don't know if I'd want to participate. Maybe you could define your idea further, Cyg.

SDG,

Brad

 

[cygnusx1]

Do two weekend days of limited reply really prove a lack of interest? It appears you have a pet peeve, and are ever seeking proof of it, even where none exists.

As for me, I'd love to see a holiness forum. I'd like to know what it would consist of and it's aims. But if its just going to be a forum for brethren to accuse one another of this failing or that, then I don't know if I'd want to participate. Maybe you could define your idea further, Cyg.

SDG,

Brad

Sure Brad , I would like to see all Christians welcome , yes that does mean inviting a cross section of understanding and experience . I would like to see Romans 6 , 7 and 8 looked into even from differing perspectives , personally I am inclined toward the Keswick view but I think all views are worth examining.
Also a study of santification looking at Galations and 1 John with the various emphasis found in each.

I have no wish for this proposed forum to be anything less than Holy , I would like it very much if brethren would first consider just what is being studied (like take your shoes off before you entering .... metaphorically anyway) before any real headway can be reached.

And finally , I would like this forum , should it receive the backing I hope , to challenge brethren with the outworking , the practical out working of being Holy ....... such is the calling on "the Priesthood of all believers" anyway.


thanks for your interest Brad.

 

[JimfromOhio]

In order for us to understand God's grace, we need to understand God's holiness. A person without having the Holy Spirit in the heart will not understand God's holiness therefore a person will define God's definition of sin in a human point of view. When a Christian who is saved by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, this Christian is living in a new Creature with holy conscience rather than sinful conscience.

Ephesians 4:24 "and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness."

I am sure we will see people's view on "Holiness" because I am seeing this what they may view the definition of Salvation and the work of the Holy Spirit in a Christian's life. I don't mind having a new forum since because this is one area that I have been studying for years.

Denominations may differ and this will be interesting how people view Holiness as they view "salvation".

 

[kimlva]

If it were only for calvinists, I'd be interested. But if it is going to include all, I am not interested. That is why I do not even read any other sections of this huge place but this one. The rest of them are just plain scary to me.

 

[jer3119]

Dear Cyg:

Orange tpye below in context of quote is my response:

Sure Brad , I would like to see all Christians welcome , yes that does mean inviting a cross section of understanding and experience .

I don't have a problem with looking at other perspectives, per se.

I would like to see Romans 6 , 7 and 8 looked into even from differing perspectives , personally I am inclined toward the Keswick view but I think all views are worth examining.

I have studied the Keeswick view, Penn-Lewis, and others, as well as their modern equivalents. I have friend who "counsels" under this paradime, and am familiar with the several Counseling Schools and minitries that use it, and conisdered for a while, Solomans is one of them. The Lord led me away from that to a Reformed Perspective. So I agree with Lloyd-Jones view of this approach and find it wanting. I don't mind looking at it of course, but if it is the view you favor, being the leader in this effort, I would have my doubts about participating.

Ryle's Holiness, Pink's Practical Christianity, Bunyan's Work on Holiness, Owen on Mortification of Sin, or any of the Standard approaches from a Reformed Perspective/Puritan (not the modern perversions of same) where what I had thought you would lean to, so, I was surprised to hear you favored the Keeswick approach.

Also a study of santification looking at Galations and 1 John with the various emphasis found in each.

Holiness is impossible without sanctification, so I would have thought that, Galations, 1John, as well as all the teaching in the Epistles dealing with "putting off the Old Man and putting on the new", and "mortifying the flesh and the lusts", as well as the Lord's teachings, or should I say ESPECIALLY THE LORD'S teaching in the Gospels about "denying self", "loosing self to find self", "picking up the cross and following Him" and so on would be central to the study of holiness.

Similarly, how could the plain teaching of James on the Double Minded Man, deceiving ourselves if we a "hearers only and not doers of the Word" be excluded?


I have no wish for this proposed forum to be anything less than Holy , I would like it very much if brethren would first consider just what is being studied (like take your shoes off before you entering .... metaphorically anyway) before any real headway can be reached.

Totally agree, and since I have been labeled and mischaracterized repeatedly as to what I believe and see as the need in the church and the world today, it being my "pet peeve", among many other false statemets and slanders, I doubt seriously that anything I say will be met with open ears, at least by some. In view of this consideration, and the above points on content, I would have to say I am not hopeful that I could benefit from the interaction, or that others could benefit from my participation.


And finally , I would like this forum , should it receive the backing I hope , to challenge brethren with the outworking , the practical out working of being Holy ....... such is the calling on "the Priesthood of all believers" anyway.

Absolutely and totally agree. As Bunyan said, and I have quoted before, "True Religion is the Practical Part".





thanks for your interest Brad.

"So he went and did according unto the word of the Lord." Elijah not only preached God’s Word, but he practiced it. This is the crying need of our times. There is a great deal of talking, but little of walking according to the divine precepts. There is much activity in the religious realm, but only too often it is unauthorized by, and in numerous instances contrary to, the Divine statutes. "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves" (Jas. 1:22), is the unfailing requirement of Him with whom we have to do! To obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7). Alas, how many are deceived at this very point: they prate about righteousness, but fail to practice it. "Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21)."


That quote from Pink's "The Life of Elijah" is a good example of what I had in mind in a study of Holiness.


Much Christian love to you, my Brother,
jer3119

 

[cygnusx1]

Dear Cyg:

Orange tpye below in context of quote is my response:



"So he went and did according unto the word of the Lord." Elijah not only preached God’s Word, but he practiced it. This is the crying need of our times. There is a great deal of talking, but little of walking according to the divine precepts. There is much activity in the religious realm, but only too often it is unauthorized by, and in numerous instances contrary to, the Divine statutes. "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves" (Jas. 1:22), is the unfailing requirement of Him with whom we have to do! To obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7). Alas, how many are deceived at this very point: they prate about righteousness, but fail to practice it. "Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21)."


That quote from Pink's "The Life of Elijah" is a good example of what I had in mind in a study of Holiness.


Much Christian love to you, my Brother,
jer3119

Thanks bro , well just because I lean towards a certain view does not mean I agree with every single point of that view , and conversly doesn't mean I disagree with the Reformed view ver batum , that is one reason why i would like to see this subject debated , discussed and persued.

One things for sure the hope that the "sinless perfection " view could be true was soon discovered by me to be false .

 

[jer3119]

Hey Cyg:

Response in context below:

Thanks bro , well just because I lean towards a certain view does not mean I agree with every single point of that view ,

I know, and I have seen in you a willingness to consider different points of view, as in a future national Israel, which is anathama to most reformed "camp" folks.

I have also seen your willingness to admit that AV1611 had a point about BOT covering up how much of Pink's Sov. of God they had changed. To me such deception is just as bad as any supposed error in Pink's views. Just state the point and let people make up their own mind, don't lie about it is what I would say to BOT.

I have also seen you realize AV1611's and the PRC's use of this error to try and swing the pendulum to the other extreme. So I have seen you try and remain balanced and look at an issue through the lens of scrpture, and not let a fear of man, or any particular camp's views determine your own views, rather than a fear of God.

I appreciate that. It is very rare.

and conversly doesn't mean I disagree with the Reformed view ver batum ,

The modern reformed view is not the reformed view of the older reformed authors who taught an experiential christianity, which meant an understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit in empowering and facilitating sanctification. Hoekema is basically quoting/rehashing Murry. Who, while good in some things is terrible on conversion, and sanctification. No wonder there is such confusion today. That is why I go to the best of the older authors, they did not make these errors and knew God personally and walked with Him and taught others to do so.

that is one reason why i would like to see this subject debated , discussed and persued.

I would too, but mostly discussed and pursued, rather than debated. Some here seem to be more about winning arguements and displaying their knowledge of latin phrases and the latest logical fallacy book they read than in really coming to God's Word and to pick up the Cross and follow Him.

I find it hard to participate in discussions where my views are constantly mischaracterized and slandered, and then were that is pointed out, no repentance is offered. In my view, it is a perfect waste of time. And that is why I have stated several times that controversy for it's own sake is vain.

Perhaps my non participation will facilitate your pursuit of the subject without this unfortunate problem.

One things for sure the hope that the "sinless perfection " view could be true was soon discovered by me to be false .

Yes, me too, as I've said in posts here before, every day, I have to go to 1Jn9 and beg His forgiveness and also thank Him for His blood and for using even my sins to teach me to love Him more.

Thanks for your work for Him,

Much Christian love to you,
jer3119

 

[bradfordl]

I would too, but mostly discussed and pursued, rather than debated. Some here seem to be more about winning arguements and displaying their knowledge of latin phrases and the latest logical fallacy book they read than in really coming to God's Word and to pick up the Cross and follow Him.
I find it hard to participate in discussions where my views are constantly mischaracterized and slandered, and then were that is pointed out, no repentance is offered.

Forget it. Post deleted due to weariness.

Brad