If we are sinning willfully after we receive, there remains no more sacrifice for sins

Clare73

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That's if you don't care about the truth. Logically apostates don't disagree with what's true, they simply base everything on a false doctrine denying the truth. I don't think a Christian in the Context of Election could become an apostates. it undermines being written in the book of Life.
I totally agree. . .they were never true Christians in the first place, their faith was counterfeit, their profession of faith was false, they had no root of new birth. They are like the seed that fell on rocky soil
in Luke 8:13.
 
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Jesusfann777888

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I totally agree. . .they were never true Christians in the first place, their faith was counterfeit, their profession of faith was false, they had no root of new birth. They are like the seed that fell on rocky soil
in Luke 8:13.
I don't think faith can be counterfeit. I have difficulty with rationalizing that. Intentionally teaching a false doctrine when you know what's true I think Charecterize's an apostates.
 
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Der Alte

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I totally agree. . .they were never true Christians in the first place, their faith was counterfeit, their profession of faith was false, they had no root of new birth. They are like the seed that fell on rocky soil
in Luke 8:13.
I don't think that is what the OP scripture is talking about.
Hebrews 10:26-30
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
"their faith was counterfeit, their profession of faith was false"
Heb 10: 29 says "the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified" "counterfeit faith and false profession of faith" are not sanctified by "the blood of the covenant."
 
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Clare73

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I don't think that is what the OP scripture is talking about.
Hebrews 10:26-30
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
"their faith was counterfeit, their profession of faith was false"
Heb 10: 29 says "the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified" "counterfeit faith and false profession of faith" are not sanctified by "the blood of the covenant."
Well actually, I'm not addressing Hebrews, I'm responding to Jesusfann's statement regarding the elect apostasizing.

Thanks anyway.
 
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Clare73

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I don't think faith can be counterfeit. I have difficulty with rationalizing that. Intentionally teaching a false doctrine when you know what's true I think Charecterize's an apostates.
An apostate is one who falls away, abandons a profession of belief.
Counterfeit faith is not true faith, so it's not really faith, so yes, true faith cannot be counterfeit.
But there can be a counterfeit faith, which by definition is not true faith, and excellently illustrated in Luke 8:13.
 
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HIM

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I don't think that is what the OP scripture is talking about.
Hebrews 10:26-30
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
"their faith was counterfeit, their profession of faith was false"
Heb 10: 29 says "the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified" "counterfeit faith and false profession of faith" are not sanctified by "the blood of the covenant."
It is admonition to those who are of the Faith however. We know this because the writer includes himself in the admonition by his use of the word we.
 
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Blade

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We are new creation in Christ. His word, His Law being in our hearts. But those who are without or who ignore the gift shall die in their sins. For the wages of sin is death, and if we are sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sin, but certain fearful looking forward to judgment and fiery indignation which shall destroy the adversary. He who despised Moses' Law died under two or three witnesses. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But the just live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition (destruction); but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Maria is right. See Paul was talking to Jews that were saved. So when they sinned they would try to go back up and offer a sacrifice for that sin. There is no more sacrifice for that sin. Can Christ die again? By them doing that put Christ to open shame. If we think there is never a time in our life that we do not willingly sin we deceive ourselves. So yes context. One can dismiss this not agree with it but matters not for that is exactly whom Paul was talking to. What sin made it past the blood of Jesus Christ our lord?

He took away the sin of the world. He was not some lamb that only took away that one person's past sins. For God so loved the world. And if we keep reading putting it all together we find we are BORN AGAIN a new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. That comes only by believing in Jesus Christ. SIn was taken care of. What He looks for is your name written in the lambs book. Praise GOD glory to Jesus.. You believe in Jesus Christ thats what matters

only came back for this one post. Some places have changed over the years.
 
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HIM

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Maria is right. See Paul was talking to Jews that were saved. So when they sinned they would try to go back up and offer a sacrifice for that sin. There is no more sacrifice for that sin. Can Christ die again? By them doing that put Christ to open shame. If we think there is never a time in our life that we do not willingly sin we deceive ourselves. So yes context. One can dismiss this not agree with it but matters not for that is exactly whom Paul was talking to. What sin made it past the blood of Jesus Christ our lord?

He took away the sin of the world. He was not some lamb that only took away that one person's past sins. For God so loved the world. And if we keep reading putting it all together we find we are BORN AGAIN a new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. That comes only by believing in Jesus Christ. SIn was taken care of. What He looks for is your name written in the lambs book. Praise GOD glory to Jesus.. You believe in Jesus Christ thats what matters

only came back for this one post. Some places have changed over the years.
No, context and grammar in chapter 10 and throughout says different. Stop inserting things that are not there. You cannot prove within the context of Hebrews that what you say.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Does that mean that confessing our sins to God alone in prayer is insufficient?

Nope, of course it is sufficient. All confession, even private confession to our pastor, is confession to God. Only God can forgive us our sins. But our Lord gave to His Church the Keys of the kingdom, and thus through the Church God works to forgive us, to cleanse us, to heal us--through His Word and Sacraments. Thus through the Church, in the exercising of the Keys to pronounce forgiveness of sins (i.e. Absolution), there is real forgiveness, real grace, real mercy--God's grace.

For Lutherans (and many others), in the Penitential Rite of the Liturgy we offer a corporate confession of sin to God, here is an example of my favorite Penitential Prayer,

Pastor and People:
"Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against You in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved You with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbor as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of Your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in Your will, and walk in Your ways, to the glory of Your Name. Amen."

Afterward the pastor speaks the Words of Absolution,

Something along the lines of the following:

"Almighty God in His mercy has given His Son to die for you and for His sake forgives you all your sins. As a called and ordained servant of the Word, I announce the grace of God to all of you, and in the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ, I forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father, and of the ✛Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."

Thus by the promise and command of Jesus Christ, our sins are forgiven us--not for our sake, not for our pastor's sake, but for Christ's sake. It is Christ Himself who speaks to us through the Words of Absolution, He is the "I" in "I forgive you" in the above. The pastor merely speaks and acts in Christ's stead, as His representative in the free giving of Word and Sacrament, by the word and command and authority of Jesus which He gave when He said, "Whoever's sins you forgive are forgiven" (John 20:23).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Daniel Marsh

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We are new creation in Christ. His word, His Law being in our hearts. But those who are without or who ignore the gift shall die in their sins. For the wages of sin is death, and if we are sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sin, but certain fearful looking forward to judgment and fiery indignation which shall destroy the adversary. He who despised Moses' Law died under two or three witnesses. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But the just live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition (destruction); but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

I John 1:8-10
 
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HIM

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I John 1:8-10
Posting links to verses does not disprove the facts shared within the post you responded to.
But in regards to 1 John 1:8-10. Is there a difference between how we understand nouns and verbs?
Yes, One is a person, place or thing and the other is an action.
In verse 8 sin is a noun. It is not an action yet. It could be or it could not be. As sin enters the heart and mind and we become aware we need to confess, assent with God the ill and He will cleanse us from all unrighteousness as verse 9 says. In Verse 10 Sinned is in the past tense not present as in sinning. In verse 2:1 we are told not to sin. With that being said if it were not possible in Christ John would not have placed this stumbling block before us. The other thing in 2:1 that needs noticed John says IF we sin not when.

(1John 1:8 [KJV])
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

(1John 1:9 [KJV])
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(1John 1:10 [KJV])
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

(1John 2:1 [KJV])
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
 
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Micaiah-Imla

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These scriptures are true. But unfortunately it is grossly twisted by many.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Hebrews 10:26-27)
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Verse 8
If we say (εαν ειπωμεν — ean eipōmen). See 1 John 1:6.

We have no sin (αμαρτιαν ουκ εχομεν — hamartian ouk echomen). For this phrase see John 9:41; John 15:22, John 15:24. That is, we have no personal guilt, no principle of sin. This some of the Gnostics held, since matter was evil and the soul was not contaminated by the sinful flesh, a thin delusion with which so-called Christian scientists delude themselves today.
We deceive ourselves (εαυτους πλανωμεν — heautous planōmen). Present active indicative of πλαναω — planaō to lead astray. We do not deceive others who know us. Negative statement again of the same idea, “the truth is not in us.”
Verse 9
If we confess (εαν ομολογωμεν — ean homologōmen). Third-class condition again with εαν — ean and present active subjunctive of ομολογεω — homologeō “if we keep on confessing.” Confession of sin to God and to one another (James 5:16) is urged throughout the N.T. from John the Baptist (Mark 1:5) on.

Faithful (πιστος — pistos). Jesus made confession of sin necessary to forgiveness. It is God‘s promise and he is “righteous” (δικαιος — dikaios).
To forgive (ινα απηι — hina aphēi). Sub-final clause with ινα — hina and second aorist active subjunctive of απιημι — aphiēmi to cleanse (και αγιασηι — kai hagiasēi). So again with ινα — hina and the first aorist active subjunctive of καταριζω — katharizō (1 John 1:7).
Verse 10
If we say (εαν ειπωμεν — ean eipōmen). As in 1 John 1:6, 1 John 1:8.

We have not sinned (ουχ αμαρτηκαμεν — ouch hamartēkamen). Perfect active indicative of αμαρτανω — hamartanō This is a denial of any specific acts of sin, while in 1 John 1:8 we have the denial of the principle of sin. David Smith observes that the claim to personal perfectionism has two causes, one the stifling of conscience in making God a liar (πσευστην — pseustēn the word used of the devil by Jesus in John 8:44), and the other ignorance of God‘s word, which is not in us, else we should not make such a claim.
1 John 1 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

I John 2
Verse 1
My little children (τεκνια μου — teknia mou). Tender tone with this diminutive of τεκνον — teknon (child), again in 1 John 2:12; 1 John 3:18, but παιδια — paidia in 1 John 2:14. John is now an old man and regards his readers as his little children. That attitude is illustrated in the story of his visit to the robber to win him to Christ.

That ye may not sin (ινα μη αμαρτητε — hina mē hamartēte). Purpose (negative) clause with ινα μη — hina mē and the second aorist (ingressive, commit sin) active subjunctive of αμαρτανω — hamartanō to sin. John has no patience with professional perfectionists (1 John 1:8-10), but he has still less with loose-livers like some of the Gnostics who went to all sorts of excesses without shame.
If any man sin (εαν τις αμαρτηι — ean tis hamartēi). Third-class condition with εαν — ean and second aorist (ingressive) active subjunctive again, “if one commit sin.”
We have (εχομεν — echomen). Present active indicative of εχω — echō in the apodosis, a present reality like εχομεν — echomen in 2 Corinthians 5:1.
An advocate (παρακλητον — paraklēton). See note on John 14:16, and John 14:26; and note on John 15:26; and John 16:7 for this word, nowhere else in the N.T. The Holy Spirit is God‘s Advocate on earth with men, while Christ is man‘s Advocate with the Father (the idea, but not the word, in Romans 8:31-39; Hebrews 7:25). As δικαιος — dikaios (righteous) Jesus is qualified to plead our case and to enter the Father‘s presence (Hebrews 2:18).
1 John 2 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

1 John 1:8-10
Easy-to-Read Version
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are fooling ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 But if we confess our sins, God will forgive us. We can trust God to do this. He always does what is right. He will make us clean from all the wrong things we have done. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we are saying that God is a liar and that we don’t accept his true teaching.

1 John 2
Easy-to-Read Version
Jesus Is Our Helper
2 My dear children, I write this letter to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone sins, we have Jesus Christ to help us. He always did what was right, so he is able to defend us before God the Father. 2 Jesus is the way our sins are taken away. And he is the way all people can have their sins taken away too.

I John 2:22 So who is the liar? It is the one who says Jesus is not the Messiah. Whoever says that is the enemy of Christ—the one who does not believe in the Father or in his Son. 23 Whoever does not believe in the Son does not have the Father, but whoever accepts the Son has the Father too.

I John 3:9 Those who are God’s children do not continue to sin, because the new life God gave them[a] stays in them. They cannot keep sinning, because they have become children of God. 10 So we can see who God’s children are and who the devil’s children are. These are the ones who are not God’s children: those who don’t do what is right and those who do not love their brothers and sisters in God’s family.


1 John 4
Easy-to-Read Version
John Warns Against False Teachers
4 My dear friends, many false prophets are in the world now. So don’t believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are from God. 2 This is how you can recognize God’s Spirit. One spirit says, “I believe that Jesus is the Messiah who came to earth and became a man.” That Spirit is from God. 3 Another spirit refuses to say this about Jesus. That spirit is not from God. This is the spirit of the enemy of Christ. You have heard that the enemy of Christ is coming, and now he is already in the world.

4 My dear children, you belong to God, so you have already defeated these false prophets. That’s because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 And they belong to the world, so what they say is from the world too. And the world listens to what they say.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


One of the things John was writing against was false teachers who taught Gnosticism.

Like the cult known as Christian Science today they taught that:

1. Matter really did not exist.
2. Jesus was only a man who took on the "christ idea"
3. That sin does not exist.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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These scriptures are true. But unfortunately it is grossly twisted by many.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Hebrews 10
Easy-to-Read Version
Jesus Christ—the Only Sacrifice We Need
10 The law gave us only an unclear picture of the good things coming in the future. The law is not a perfect picture of the real things. The law tells people to offer the same sacrifices every year. Those who come to worship God continue to offer those sacrifices. But the law can never make them perfect. 2 If the law could make people perfect, those sacrifices would have already stopped. They would already be clean from their sins, and they would not still feel guilty. 3 But that’s not what happens. Their sacrifices make them remember their sins every year, 4 because it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 So when Christ came into the world he said,

“You don’t want sacrifices and offerings,
but you have prepared a body for me.
6 You are not pleased with the sacrifices of animals killed and burned
or with offerings to take away sins.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am, God.
It is written about me in the book of the law.
I have come to do what you want.’”

8 Christ first said, “You don’t want sacrifices and offerings. You are not pleased with animals killed and burned or with sacrifices to take away sin.” (These are all sacrifices that the law commands.) 9 Then he said, “Here I am, God. I have come to do what you want.” So God ends that first system of sacrifices and starts his new way. 10 Jesus Christ did the things God wanted him to do. And because of that, we are made holy through the sacrifice of Christ’s body. Christ made that sacrifice one time—enough for all time.

11 Every day the priests stand and do their religious service. Again and again they offer the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But Christ offered only one sacrifice for sins, and that sacrifice is good for all time. Then he sat down at the right side of God. 13 And now Christ waits there for his enemies to be put under his power.[a] 14 With one sacrifice Christ made his people perfect forever. They are the ones who are being made holy.

15 The Holy Spirit also tells us about this. First he says,

16 “This is the agreement I will make
with my people in the future, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts.
I will write my laws in their minds.”

17 Then he says,

“I will forget their sins
and never again remember the evil they have done.”

18 And after everything is forgiven, there is no more need for a sacrifice to pay for sins.

Come Near to God
19 And so, brothers and sisters, we are completely free to enter the Most Holy Place.[c] We can do this without fear because of the blood sacrifice of Jesus. 20 We enter through a new way that Jesus opened for us. It is a living way that leads through the curtain—Christ’s body. 21 And we have a great priest who rules the house of God. 22 Sprinkled with the blood of Christ, our hearts have been made free from a guilty conscience, and our bodies have been washed with pure water. So come near to God with a sincere heart, full of confidence because of our faith in Christ. 23 We must hold on to the hope we have, never hesitating to tell people about it. We can trust God to do what he promised.

Help Each Other Be Strong
24 We should think about each other to see how we can encourage each other to show love and do good works. 25 We must not quit meeting together, as some are doing. No, we need to keep on encouraging each other. This becomes more and more important as you see the Day getting closer.

Don’t Turn Away From God’s Son
26 If we decide to continue sinning after we have learned the truth, then there is no other sacrifice that will take away sins. 27 If we continue sinning, all that is left for us is a fearful time of waiting for the judgment and the angry fire that will destroy those who live against God. 28 Whoever refused to obey the Law of Moses was found guilty from the testimony given by two or three witnesses. Such people were not forgiven. They were killed. 29 So think how much more punishment people deserve who show their hate for the Son of God—people who show they have no respect for the blood sacrifice that began the new agreement and once made them holy or who insult the Spirit of God’s grace. 30 We know that God said, “I will punish people for the wrongs they do; I will repay them.”[d] And he also said, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a terrible thing to face punishment from the living God.

Keep the Courage and Patience You Had
32 Remember the days when you first learned the truth. You had a hard struggle with much suffering, but you continued strong. 33 Sometimes people said hateful things to you and mistreated you in public. And sometimes you helped others who were being treated that same way. 34 Yes, you helped them in prison and shared in their suffering. And you were still happy when everything you owned was taken away from you. You continued to be happy, because you knew that you had something much better—something that would continue forever.

35 So don’t lose the courage that you had in the past. Your courage will be rewarded richly. 36 You must be patient. After you have done what God wants, you will get what he promised you. 37 He says,

“Very soon now, the one who is coming
will come and will not be late.
38 The person who is right with me
will live by trusting in me.
But I will not be pleased with the one
who turns back in fear.”

39 But we are not those who turn back and are lost. No, we are the people who have faith and are saved.
 
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These scriptures are true. But unfortunately it is grossly twisted by many.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Hebrews 10:26-27)

welcome
 
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