If there was no death (of animals) before the Fall, then why would animals need to eat?

[Astrid]

I wish the "straw man" was unhinged, it was a real experience.
In the UK when the abortion law was passed it was meant to be abortion in a life threatening situation with two doctors agreeing this is the case. As many activists will declare its their right to abort no matter what, and the system is rigged that no medical practitioner will stand in the way.

The debate is so extreme some suggested infanticide is acceptable.
The more emotionally numb people are and uncaring, the further violence against others is condoned.

One (a) experience represents the whole society?
That's what you are claiming.

I'm not impressed with your anecdote or conclusions.

As a uni student in the USA I was attacked by a
man who beat, tortured and raped me.
I nearly died in the hospital; while unconscious
I was given a "morning after" along with massive
antibiotics. I doubt five minutes thought went into the
the " morning after" treatment. Why should it?

I don't even know if I was pregnant, don't want to
know. You figure I should have found out?

Or maybe that I should hate all men of that race ?
( I can't help being terrified of them)
Conclude that the USA is all the things you figure
that thought processes of one or a few represents the.
moral decline of a nation?

Do you see the problem with generalizing from specifics?

 

[Astrid]

I think the answer to this question is the feelings mothers and fathers have towards their children.
There are some who are too sensitive and some have no sensitivity at all, but the majority care a lot.

It is similar to sexual assault. I had no idea that a 5 second incident can change someones life with ptsd, panic attacks, and paranoia. Sex is something so profound and basic to our being, it moulds our behaviour, our thoughts, our aspirations, our goals, and our life choices. Because people are often very mucked up, sex can become a substitute for value and love, in the hope their partner will appreciate them and it not just be physical.

A lot of people think this is just a religious construct, which is a faith belief in itself. They then wonder why they have guilt and trauma associated with relationships. Put simply we are biologically programmed to choose the right partner to have the best kids possible and will fight to make this happen.

God bless you

Ain't much of a program seeing how poorly it works.

 

[AV1611VET]

As a uni student in the USA I was attacked by a
man who beat, tortured and raped me.
I nearly died in the hospital; while unconscious
I was given a "morning after" along with massive
antibiotics. I doubt five minutes thought went into the
the " morning after" treatment. Why should it?

Why stop at the "morning after"?

Let's just take it all the way out.

Let's go round up all the children currently living with mom, who were conceived in such a way, and "abort" (execute) them?

Of course, we'll ask the mothers first if they want them.

And if they say NO, then Zyklon'em.

What's the difference if they're in the womb, or in their room?

Harvest'em.

 

[LightLoveHope]

One (a) experience represents the whole society?
That's what you are claiming.

I'm not impressed with your anecdote or conclusions.

As a uni student in the USA I was attacked by a
man who beat, tortured and raped me.
I nearly died in the hospital; while unconscious
I was given a "morning after" along with massive
antibiotics. I doubt five minutes thought went into the
the " morning after" treatment. Why should it?

I don't even know if I was pregnant, don't want to
know. You figure I should have found out?

Or maybe that I should hate all men of that race ?
( I can't help being terrified of them)
Conclude that the USA is all the things you figure
that thought processes of one or a few represents the.
moral decline of a nation?

Do you see the problem with generalizing from specifics?

My feeling is there are too many different issues rolled into one, so I agree there are generalisations only in common groups of situations. And unfortunately when the law gets involved, it tends to simplify things into either legal or illegal.

So I would say specifics are important, and dealing with complexity with discussion and effort, not just a simple yes or no response. Both pro-life and pro-choice groups simplify things down to allow for everyone or ban for everyone.

The Greeks upon whom we look for our roots in democracy left it up to city states to decide what was ok and what was not. Spartans put babies out on the mountainside to see if they would survive.

To resolve the gap between world views, you need to begin to have open discussions from all sides, and work through the emotional landscape of compromise. My daughters find the idea of discussion hard, because they feel so strongly about the issues. Until people can talk about and not lose the plot, there will always be conflict over these issues.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Ain't much of a program seeing how poorly it works.

Biology is an average of bringing offspring to an age to be able to produce more offspring.
In the sense we have 7 billion people in the world, it works very well, but not necessarily on the individual scale.

What most people do not take on board, is biology works the same in every society, with different compromises, but the same programming. In the modern world what has changed is now we can analyse, measure and talk about the down side of everything, and tweak it.

 

[Astrid]

Biology is an average of bringing offspring to an age to be able to produce more offspring.
In the sense we have 7 billion people in the world, it works very well, but not necessarily on the individual scale.

What most people do not take on board, is biology works the same in every society, with different compromises, but the same programming. In the modern world what has changed is now we can analyse, measure and talk about the down side of everything, and tweak it.

You were talking quality, now it's quantity.

Your definition of biology is very eccentric. Maybe don't try to
give lessons till you know better.

 

[Astrid]

My feeling is there are too many different issues rolled into one, so I agree there are generalisations only in common groups of situations. And unfortunately when the law gets involved, it tends to simplify things into either legal or illegal.

So I would say specifics are important, and dealing with complexity with discussion and effort, not just a simple yes or no response. Both pro-life and pro-choice groups simplify things down to allow for everyone or ban for everyone.

The Greeks upon whom we look for our roots in democracy left it up to city states to decide what was ok and what was not. Spartans put babies out on the mountainside to see if they would survive.

To resolve the gap between world views, you need to begin to have open discussions from all sides, and work through the emotional landscape of compromise. My daughters find the idea of discussion hard, because they feel so strongly about the issues. Until people can talk about and not lose the plot, there will always be conflict over these issues.

You were generalizing from one anecdote to the decline of .
society. Talking about greeks won't improve it.

 

[SelfSim]

What's the difference if they're in the womb, or in their room?

Its not your 'womb'.

And you clearly have no idea what contributions to, (and sacrifices for), someone who happens to have one, makes, in order to sustain your own life.

So much for your Christian respect for life.

 

[LightLoveHope]

You were talking quality, now it's quantity.

Your definition of biology is very eccentric. Maybe don't try to
give lessons till you know better.

The problem with care of children is it costs our lives.
Parents within a few months would give their lives up to protect the children from harm.

This switch is complicated, from strangers to devoted, but it does happen.
Conception and abortion sit in the world also. It is a difficult mix of feelings and reactions through the generations of siblings, parents and grand parents as well as wider family.

Just a picture of a young baby surviving at 24 weeks bring out the sympathy and protection of most people. So its a difficult mix to put into this world the taking away of life to a possible future child.

Your description of your experience of the morning after pill I fully understand.
The trauma and insanity of what you went through is terrible. I am not against using the morning after pill to try and resolve possible consequences though some would regard this as abortion, I would regard it as prevention of pregnancy.

But this is why we need modern social discussions about the beginning of life and its end.
Science is making both these things more difficult to define and deal with, because we can now do so much.

God bless you

 

[LightLoveHope]

You were generalizing from one anecdote to the decline of .
society. Talking about greeks won't improve it.

Let me expand the boundaries. Some children who probably should not live and are now being kept alive. In hospitals seriously brain damaged babies are kept alive who have no interaction that can be measured. It is possible to feed and help them exist, but in the past such babies would not survive and would be allowed to pass on.

Court cases are fought by parents to give their child a chance, when the doctors know there is none.
In the same hospital unborn children who could live are having their lives taken away. The difference is the parents attitude. It is not difficult to see the contradiction in this.

 

[Astrid]

Let me expand the boundaries. Some children who probably should not live and are now being kept alive. In hospitals seriously brain damaged babies are kept alive who have no interaction that can be measured. It is possible to feed and help them exist, but in the past such babies would not survive and would be allowed to pass on.

Court cases are fought by parents to give their child a chance, when the doctors know there is none.
In the same hospital unborn children who could live are having their lives taken away. The difference is the parents attitude. It is not difficult to see the contradiction in this.

As if we don't all know that or that it has the tiniest relevance toyiur absurd statement about the decline of society

 

[AV1611VET]

Its not your 'womb'.

I don't care whose womb it is!

Nor do I care whose room it is.

When a child is murdered there, I'm sure a crime has been committed.

(Wow)

 

[Astrid]

The problem with care of children is it costs our lives.
Parents within a few months would give their lives up to protect the children from harm.

This switch is complicated, from strangers to devoted, but it does happen.
Conception and abortion sit in the world also. It is a difficult mix of feelings and reactions through the generations of siblings, parents and grand parents as well as wider family.

Just a picture of a young baby surviving at 24 weeks bring out the sympathy and protection of most people. So its a difficult mix to put into this world the taking away of life to a possible future child.

Your description of your experience of the morning after pill I fully understand.
The trauma and insanity of what you went through is terrible. I am not against using the morning after pill to try and resolve possible consequences though some would regard this as abortion, I would regard it as prevention of pregnancy.

But this is why we need modern social discussions about the beginning of life and its end.
Science is making both these things more difficult to define and deal with, because we can now do so much.

God bless you

I don't agree science makes understanding harder.

What is hard is to accept that there is no solution to
the issues, and never will be in any realistically predictable
future.
No way to be right about it.

 

[SelfSim]

I don't care whose womb it is!

Nor do I care whose room it is.

Ok then .. why should I care about what you think about someone else's body? Its not my problem you are confused about how to distinguish who you are, and where your responsibilities end.

When a child is murdered there, I'm sure a crime has been committed.

Its not a child so its not a murder.

 

[AV1611VET]

Its not a child so its not a murder.

Ya ... it's just a "fetus," isn't it? clinical waste?

Thousands of unborn foetuses incinerated to heat UK hospitals

 

[SelfSim]

Ya ... it's just a "fetus," isn't it? clinical waste?

'Thou shalt not covet' (especially your neighbour's wife) .. So why do you?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Let's go round up all the children currently living with mom, who were conceived in such a way, and "abort" (execute) them?

Why? Is anyone (other than you) proposing that?

Of course, we'll ask the mothers first if they want them.

Why would you ask them? Surely that's the whole point - it doesn't matter what the woman wants, comfortable middle aged man knows better.

And if they say NO, then Zyklon'em.

Surely you hold them up as examples of "good Christian values" even if they're not Christian?

What's the difference if they're in the womb, or in their room?

That's a great question. Can you answer it?

 

[LightLoveHope]

I don't agree science makes understanding harder.

What is hard is to accept that there is no solution to
the issues, and never will be in any realistically predictable
future.
No way to be right about it.

When medicine was a battle wound could be dealt with in 30min by hacking off a limb or you died things were very binary.

I saw a documentary about end of life care, were the choice was 24hours a lucid interaction which passing away the next day or highly medicated and unaware existence for a few months.

This is where science can give real choices and options.
So I do not agree there is no solution. For me that is ignoring care and social responsibility that occurs now in all aspects of social interaction, whether we acknowledge it or not.

Letting young people make decisions alone is not helpful, but equally avoiding education and family support is often not there which makes the whole problem leading up to the situation very predictable.

 

[AV1611VET]

That's a great question. Can you answer it?

None.

 

[SelfSim]

None.

So there's no impact on the fetus if the pregnant woman kills herself, just as there's (supposedly) no impact if the same happens when a child is in a room?
Have you never been educated in biology?
Do you even know what pregnancy is?