If there was no death (of animals) before the Fall, then why would animals need to eat?

[Platte]

Follow that logic to its conclusion. God created biological features which kill unborn children, therefore ______ is responsible for those deaths.

He created a biological feature where everyone dies. Thanks to Adam
You taking another persons life for your personal benefit is not justified by the biological feature of life that we all will die.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

He created a biological feature where everyone dies. Thanks to Adam
You taking another persons life for your personal benefit is not justified by the biological feature of life that we all will die.

Now you have accepted that God kills unborn children, what's your objection to killing unborn children?

 

[Platte]

Now you have accepted that God kills unborn children, what's your objection to killing unborn children?

My objection to killing unborn children is the same as my objection to killing born children

 

[Bungle_Bear]

My objection to killing unborn children is the same as my objection to killing born children

The usual double standard of somebody largely unaffected by the issue, then. God does it, so it must be right, but if a woman does it it must be wrong. No grey areas, no context or outcome dependencies, just a simple, blinkered, right/wrong standard.

 

[Astrid]

The usual double standard of somebody largely unaffected by the issue, then. God does it, so it must be right, but if a woman does it it must be wrong. No grey areas, no context or outcome dependencies, just a simple, blinkered, right/wrong standard.

If there's a cause worth a fight to the death, it's to stop takeover by a fundamentalist theocracy

 

[LightLoveHope]

See title.

Animals eat for the purpose of providing nutrients for the replenishment of energy stores, cellular rejuvenation, and so on. If an animal stops eating, metabolic processes no longer have the 'fuel' required to function and the animal eventually dies.

According to creationists there was no death before the Fall. If animals were no longer in danger of starving to death then why would there be a need to eat?

I agree the definitions are very poor. Cell death is part of life, with replacement of dead cells with new working ones. Eternal life seems to be focused on the replenishment of failed systems with working ones, stopping the failure and degridation.

The fall was the break of trust between man and God, with man taking on responsibility to make up their own minds about how to live, ie knowing good and evil.

The use of energy, increasing chaos etc. is hard wired into creation, but most none scientists understand what this actually means.

God bless you

 

[Platte]

The usual double standard of somebody largely unaffected by the issue, then. God does it, so it must be right, but if a woman does it it must be wrong. No grey areas, no context or outcome dependencies, just a simple, blinkered, right/wrong standard.

Youre the one with the double standard not me. I just specifically and deliberately proclaimed a single standard for the born and the unborn. At least admit you have a double standard

 

[Platte]

If there's a cause worth a fight to the death, it's to stop takeover by a fundamentalist theocracy

You sound like a Southerner now

 

[Astrid]

Youre the one with the double standard not me. I just specifically and deliberately proclaimed a single standard for the born and the unborn. At least admit you have a double standard

A single standard is a double standard.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Youre the one with the double standard not me. I just specifically and deliberately proclaimed a single standard for the born and the unborn. At least admit you have a double standard

No, you proclaimed, probably unintentionally, that you have a double standard. I then detailed what that double standard is - one rule for God, a different rule for man. If that's not the case, let's hear you condemn God for all those children he kills.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Follow that logic to its conclusion. God created biological features which kill unborn children, therefore ______ is responsible for those deaths.

This is an interesting perspective. My main concern is for the mother and the doctor who out of convenience decide to remove a human life, at a stage they both passed through. Emotionally this passing of judgement on oneself and removal of care and protection is actually a profound devaluing of ones own origins and the flow of society to which we belong.

Sex is founded on security, love and care, given by the couple towards the growing family. Everything within us, our love for our parents, our families, are hard wired into us and drive everything forward.
It is therefore important for the society to recognise respect for the beginning of life and the unborn is part of respect for themselves and the tapestry of life itself.

God declares hurting this process and structure is sinful and leads to death. But not in a judgement sense, but in a self destruction sense. No loving caring mother sees their child die without deep trauma and grief.

This is the cost of walking the path of not recognising the harm throwing away unborn lives without due regard has on everyone and especially those personally involved.

 

[AV1611VET]

If there's a cause worth a fight to the death, it's to stop takeover by a fundamentalist theocracy.

You're not alone thinking that.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:

 

[Bungle_Bear]

This is an interesting perspective. My main concern is for the mother and the doctor who out of convenience decide to remove a human life, at a stage they both passed through. Emotionally this passing of judgement on oneself and removal of care and protection is actually a profound devaluing of ones own origins and the flow of society to which we belong.

Sex is founded on security, love and care, given by the couple towards the growing family. Everything within us, our love for our parents, our families, are hard wired into us and drive everything forward.
It is therefore important for the society to recognise respect for the beginning of life and the unborn is part of respect for themselves and the tapestry of life itself.

God declares hurting this process and structure is sinful and leads to death. But not in a judgement sense, but in a self destruction sense. No loving caring mother sees their child die without deep trauma and grief.

This is the cost of walking the path of not recognising the harm throwing away unborn lives without due regard has on everyone and especially those personally involved.

You, like Platte, are over-simplifying reality. Sure, there may be cases where abortion is a lazy and, perhaps, unjustified action. But there are many, many instances where that is not the case but you choose to wash over them with this simplistic view of life. If this shallow view is representative of the majority view in US then it explains a lot.

 

[LightLoveHope]

You, like Platte, are over-simplifying reality. Sure, there may be cases where abortion is a lazy and, perhaps, unjustified action. But there are many, many instances where that is not the case but you choose to wash over them with this simplistic view of life. If this shallow view is representative of the majority view in US then it explains a lot.

I have to say I have personal experience of a friend of my daughter who went to a party at which things went to far with alcohol, and the morning after pill was sought to resolve any unfortunate consequences.

My wife got depressed over being pregnant, and the doctors first reaction was, you can get an abortion. There is a presumption that life if causing a problem can be resolved quickly without reference. It was supposed to be because the pregnancy was a danger to life, not an awkward consequence of events.

When a society becomes reduced to a 5 minute conversation and the option to stop a pregnancy is fine, there is something wrong. It is this awkwardness and lack of openness to harm and life long consequences which are not just resolved like a hang over which society needs to face.

God bless you

 

[Astrid]

I have to say I have personal experience of a friend of my daughter who went to a party at which things went to far with alcohol, and the morning after pill was sought to resolve any unfortunate consequences.

My wife got depressed over being pregnant, and the doctors first reaction was, you can get an abortion. There is a presumption that life if causing a problem can be resolved quickly without reference. It was supposed to be because the pregnancy was a danger to life, not an awkward consequence of events.

When a society becomes reduced to a 5 minute conversation and the option to stop a pregnancy is fine, there is something wrong. It is this awkwardness and lack of openness to harm and life long consequences which are not just resolved like a hang over which society needs to face.

God bless you

" Society reduced to a five minute conversation" is such a ridiculous straw man, so utterly unhinged from possibility, it spoils any sense there may be
in anything else you say.

 

[SelfSim]

God declares hurting this process and structure is sinful and leads to death. But not in a judgement sense, but in a self destruction sense. No loving caring mother sees their child die without deep trauma and grief.

This is the cost of walking the path of not recognising the harm throwing away unborn lives without due regard has on everyone and especially those personally involved.

So ova are destroyed on a regular basis during the menstrual cycle. Do women (or men) experience 'deep trauma and grief' about that?
I mean, after all, ova are also unborn potential lives.
Who's responsible for all that destruction?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

I have to say I have personal experience of a friend of my daughter who went to a party at which things went to far with alcohol, and the morning after pill was sought to resolve any unfortunate consequences.

Was that the right decision? It sounds almost as if you recognise things aren't always as black and white as you said they are.

When a society becomes reduced to a 5 minute conversation and the option to stop a pregnancy is fine, there is something wrong.

Why is this wrong? It wouldn't have anything to do with your religious beliefs, would it?

It is this awkwardness and lack of openness to harm and life long consequences which are not just resolved like a hang over which society needs to face.

It seems to me that the religious right are the ones not open to facing harm and life long consequences. One size does not fit all, but that’s exactly what this "abortion is always wrong" attitude tries to impose.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Was that the right decision? It sounds almost as if you recognise things aren't always as black and white as you said they are.

Why is this wrong? It wouldn't have anything to do with your religious beliefs, would it?

It seems to me that the religious right are the ones not open to facing harm and life long consequences. One size does not fit all, but that’s exactly what this "abortion is always wrong" attitude tries to impose.

I think things are emotionally black and white as far as starting a new life through sex.
If you emphasis the rights of the mother too much, you deny our origins and value.
If you emphasis the rights of the unborn too much, you deny there impact and need for a caring environment in which to be raised.

One unmarried mother had a child and an elderly childless couple became the family support.
The child is now 10, a very bright girl who is a gift and very talented. My daughters child minded her occasionally and really like this girl and her true potential.

The mother was pressured by the father to have an abortion, but she chose not to, even though she does not know how to be a loving mother and finds it all very confusing.

So I stand in the middle of the tragedy and say we need to recognise the tragedy each child and mother at a time. God bless you

 

[LightLoveHope]

" Society reduced to a five minute conversation" is such a ridiculous straw man, so utterly unhinged from possibility, it spoils any sense there may be
in anything else you say.

I wish the "straw man" was unhinged, it was a real experience.
In the UK when the abortion law was passed it was meant to be abortion in a life threatening situation with two doctors agreeing this is the case. As many activists will declare its their right to abort no matter what, and the system is rigged that no medical practitioner will stand in the way.

The debate is so extreme some suggested infanticide is acceptable.
The more emotionally numb people are and uncaring, the further violence against others is condoned.

 

[LightLoveHope]

So ova are destroyed on a regular basis during the menstrual cycle. Do women (or men) experience 'deep trauma and grief' about that?
I mean, after all, ova are also unborn potential lives.
Who's responsible for all that destruction?

I think the answer to this question is the feelings mothers and fathers have towards their children.
There are some who are too sensitive and some have no sensitivity at all, but the majority care a lot.

It is similar to sexual assault. I had no idea that a 5 second incident can change someones life with ptsd, panic attacks, and paranoia. Sex is something so profound and basic to our being, it moulds our behaviour, our thoughts, our aspirations, our goals, and our life choices. Because people are often very mucked up, sex can become a substitute for value and love, in the hope their partner will appreciate them and it not just be physical.

A lot of people think this is just a religious construct, which is a faith belief in itself. They then wonder why they have guilt and trauma associated with relationships. Put simply we are biologically programmed to choose the right partner to have the best kids possible and will fight to make this happen.

God bless you