If there is no Trinity, then

[True Believer]

 sorry I messed up something went wrong this computer stuff is always messing with me :^)  SORRY

please delete this

 

[straightforward]

 

[straightforward]

Hope I can help. The way I explain it to my kids is a little bit simplistic but it works. We have a brain, heart, and soul yet we only have one body. ie: I take it literally when I speak of the Spirit of God...yet that is a part. I also see all sides present at the baptism of Jesus.
He is just sooo much bigger than we give Him credit for sometimes. There are so many different ways we could try to explain the trinity...yet they all seem to fall apart at some point because they are all too human. How can we hope to capture this concept in human terms? Catch the wind...

 

[lared]

Straightforward,

The way I explain Jehovah and Jesus and their relationship is not with water, eggs, triangles, the three stooges, the three faces of eve, tricycles, or tripods.....

.......but rather........

father and son

One was around longer then the other.
One knows more then the other.
One is in subjection to the other.
They are both in similiar form.
One is a chip off the old block.
One always does the will of the other.
They often talk with each other.
The son tells others about his Father.
They each have a personal name.
They both have same titles such as 'human'.
They are in two different places and never meld together.
They work together and are in unity, thus it can be said of them that they are one.
Etc. etc. Hey this is fun.
Sincerely, Lared

 

[Osiris]

21st January 2003 at 04:07 PM Job_38 said this in Post #3

Franklin, no where in the doctine of the Trinity does it contradict the Bible. Christ came as the sacrafice for our sins, and only a perfect one would do, God is the only perfect being. Christ did fulfill the law, because He was God in the flesh. Immanuel[/i}

What about Adam and Eve, weren't they perfect? If they didn't sin, wouldn't they have still been perfect? God would probably be above perfection. Why would God sacrifice infinity(God's perfection) to a tiny spec(human perfection)?
Question #1:
**If Eve was the only 1 that sinned(she's not perfect anymore), would God still sacrifice himself, or would he tell Adam to do it?**
to elaborate further
** Adam and Eve did sin ->
Rest of humanity are not perfect because of that. Are God and humanity the only ones in existance? No, God had created other beings as well. So was God the only perfect being? No. Now try to connect this with Question #1.**

Another thing:
God in the flesh is an Oxymoron. Or what I'm trying to say that–that sentence would contradict itself.
In the scriptures it says that God could not be contained in this universe.
Yet people argue that God is contained within a human body.

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 04:39 AM Osiris said this in Post #45

Rest of humanity are not perfect because of that. Are God and humanity the only ones in existance? No, God had created other beings as well. So was God the only perfect being? No. Now try to connect this with Question #1.**

Other created beings? Irrelevant!

Another thing:
God in the flesh is an Oxymoron. Or what I'm trying to say that–that sentence would contradict itself.
In the scriptures it says that God could not be contained in this universe.
Yet people argue that God is contained within a human body.

What you just said is that it is impossible for God to do something, i.e. become human. Are you sure that is what you want to say? let's take a look at what my Bible says, maybe your Bible does not have these verses.You have expressed what you THINK about God, God said His thoughts and His ways are higher than man's.

• 
  Lu 1:37 For with God NOTHING shall be impossible.
  
  Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
  9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Nothing is impossible to God! So maybe you want to give that thought another think.

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 03:45 AM lared said this in Post #44

Straightforward,

The way I explain Jehovah and Jesus and their relationship is not with water, eggs, triangles, the three stooges, the three faces of eve, tricycles, or tripods.....
.......but rather........
father and son

One was around longer then the other.
One knows more then the other.
One is in subjection to the other.
They are both in similiar form.
One is a chip off the old block.
One always does the will of the other.
They often talk with each other.
The son tells others about his Father.
They each have a personal name.
They both have same titles such as 'human'.
They are in two different places and never meld together.
They work together and are in unity, thus it can be said of them that they are one.
Etc. etc. Hey this is fun.
Sincerely, Lared

• 
  "One was around longer then the other. " False!
  
  "One knows more then the other." False!
  
  "One is in subjection to the other." False!
  
  "They are both in similiar form." Huh?
  
  "One is a chip off the old block." False!
  
  "One always does the will of the other." False!
  
  "They often talk with each other." False!
  
  "The son tells others about his Father." True!
  
  "They each have a personal name." They share a name!
  
  "They both have same titles such as 'human'." Huh?
  
  "They are in two different places and never meld together." False!
  
  "They work together and are in unity, thus it can be said of them that they are one." False! Twists scripture.

that was fun wasn't it?

 

[drmmjr]

Today at 08:28 PM OldShepherd said this in Post #47

Just a few verses and thoughts:

One was around longer then the other. " False!

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

When someone is born, they have a beginning.

One knows more then the other." False!

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Jesus speaking of when he would return to earth to establish his kingdom. Jesus doesn't know when it will be, only God knows that. So one does know more than the other.

One always does the will of the other." False!

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Clearly, Jesus doing the will of the Father.

They often talk with each other." False!

Luke 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

Clearly, Jesus spoke with God each and every time that he prayed.

that was fun wasn't it?

If you say so.

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 12:36 PM drmmjr said this in Post #48

Just a few verses and thoughts:

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

When someone is born, they have a beginning.

Close but no cigar! You should really read the Bible.

• 
  Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Jesus speaking of when he would return to earth to establish his kingdom. Jesus doesn't know when it will be, only God knows that. So one does know more than the other.

See previous answer and;

• 
  Philip 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
  7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
  8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. {fashion: or habit}
  9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Clearly, Jesus doing the will of the Father.

See previous answer and;

• 
  Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
  
  Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
  
  Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Luke 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

Clearly, Jesus spoke with God each and every time that he prayed.

See all previous answers.

If you say so.

Ooooh, don't like it when the shoe is on the other foot.

 

[Osiris]

Nothing is impossible to God! So maybe you want to give that thought another think.

Some of the things that God cannot do:

Lie, cheat, fornicate, steal, harm his body with impurities(drugs)... there are plenty do you want me to keep going?

Lu 1:37 For with God NOTHING shall be impossible.


The meaning is that anything that God wants to do won't be impossible.

If you drown and become unconcious, can you at the same time take yourself out and try to resusitate yourself? Well, no... that's something no one can't do.

Jesus died, meaning he stopped existing forever. The only reason he was resurected was because someone resusitated him. Gave the life back into him. Which was God

Now if Jesus was God, and died. Who is going to bring him back? Himself? If that's the case, then he wasn't dead. So, are you calling God a liar saying that he really didn't die?

And to add to my "God can't do" list is that God CAN'T DIE. So he couldn't have died for us.

 

[TruthorApostasy?]

Once again, Franklin makes sense! It was long accepted that the world was flat too, but it was wrong. 1 Corinthians 15:24 sure dont make Jesus sound like God to me! And this scripture was after Jesus was resurrected to heaven to be "at the right hand of God" not to BE GOD. Franklin, I would like to know where you learned to think so rationally and to see the truth about Hellfire and the Trinity theory? I have been examining all the commonly "accepted" so called "christian" doctrines since 1978 and you seem to look at things similarly to what I have found to be "sound doctrine" not like most professed christians who fulfill 2 Timothy 4:3 they like to hear what they grew up hearing, not what is true.

 

[God of Love]

Where is a good Johanna Comma when you need it?

How about this:

1 John 5:7 -- For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

 

[drmmjr]

Yesterday at 11:19 PM OldShepherd said this in Post #49


Close but no cigar! You should really read the Bible.

• 
  Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

See previous answer and;

• 
  Philip 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
  7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
  8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. {fashion: or habit}
  9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

See previous answer and;

• 
  Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
  
  Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
  
  Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

See all previous answers.

Ooooh, don't like it when the shoe is on the other foot.

Oh, but I do read the Bible.

If Jesus was not a man made of a woman, made under the law, (Gal 4:4 - But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 - To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.), then please explain how in the 5th chapter of Romans, when it speaks of sin and death entering into the world by one man (verse 12), and how by the gift of grace and obedience of one man - Jesus Christ, all shall be made righteous. (verses 15 and 19)

But the 18th verse sums it up nicely.

Romans 5:18 - Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 06:24 AM Osiris said this in Post #50

Some of the things that God cannot do:

Lie, cheat, fornicate, steal, harm his body with impurities(drugs)... there are plenty do you want me to keep going?

Lu 1:37 For with God NOTHING shall be impossible.

The meaning is that anything that God wants to do won't be impossible.

If you drown and become unconcious, can you at the same time take yourself out and try to resusitate yourself? Well, no... that's something no one can't do.

Jesus died, meaning he stopped existing forever. The only reason he was resurected was because someone resusitated him. Gave the life back into him. Which was God

Now if Jesus was God, and died. Who is going to bring him back? Himself? If that's the case, then he wasn't dead. So, are you calling God a liar saying that he really didn't die?

And to add to my "God can't do" list is that God CAN'T DIE. So he couldn't have died for us.

• 
  Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Who did Jesus say would raise Him up?

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 11:10 AM drmmjr said this in Post #53

Oh, but I do read the Bible.

If Jesus was not a man made of a woman, made under the law, (Gal 4:4 - But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 - To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.), then please explain how in the 5th chapter of Romans, when it speaks of sin and death entering into the world by one man (verse 12), and how by the gift of grace and obedience of one man - Jesus Christ, all shall be made righteous. (verses 15 and 19)

But the 18th verse sums it up nicely.

Romans 5:18 - Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

What exactly is your point, how does this address my post? What exactly am I supposed to be looking for here?

Jesus was a man. Jesus is God. Jesus was equal with God. Jesus humbled Himself and took on the "morphe" of a man.

If Jesus was a mere man and did NOT pre-exist before His birth in Bethlehem, please explain Jesus' own words in Jn 17:5. Jesus said He had glory with the Father BEFORE the world was. He had glory and He knew it.

• 
  Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

[Osiris]

Yesterday at 09:21 PM OldShepherd said this in Post #54

• 
  Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Who did Jesus say would raise Him up?

Irrelevant, Jesus is not the temple in that case.

Now if Jesus was God, and died. Who is going to bring him back? Himself? If that's the case, then he wasn't dead. So, are you calling God a liar saying that he really didn't die?

You are missing the point, God can never die.

 

[TruthorApostasy?]

After all the figuring, making of opinions and decipherring of the way Jesus worded this or that- who did Jesus flat out clearly say he was,over and over again? Did he say straight out "I AM GOD ALMIGHTY"?? No, he said he was the son of God, not God the son EVER. The fact that Thomas said "MY God" does not prove that he was referring to Jesus- people use that as a saying today! The fact that Jesus did pre exist before coming to earth as a man, does not make him God either- wicked angels came to earth and took human form and they had pre existed WITH God too. The scripture that says there are 3 that bear witness in heaven, does not make them 1 trinitarian god. When Jesus was resurrected to heaven, the scripture dioes not say that he became part of God [ again ] it says he was sitting at GOD'S right hand.Seperate. No Holy Ghost in the picture. As to 1 john 5:7 it simply says there are 3 that bear witness- not 3 in 1 and the fact that they are 1 in agreement, does not make them a mystery being, called a trinity god. Just a few of my observations on what has been said.

 

[ksen]

20th January 2003 at 07:00 PM Job_38 said this in Post #1

The Bible contradicts itself. Heres why:

1) Have no other Gods before me

2) There are no other Gods

3) Baptize in the name of the father, son, and the holy spirit

 

 If the Trinity does not exist, then the Bible is contradicting itself.

 

Whew! I'm glad it exists then!

 

[ksen]

28th January 2003 at 11:56 AM Wonder said this in Post #11

If we say that the Trinity isn't in the OT. then we are saying it is only God working the in the OT. Yet we see God, Jesus, and the Spirit all working together in the OT. People always say stuff like Abraham represents God, Issac, Jesus, and take where they say that the servant that went to get Rebbeca represents the Spirit etc. People just needs to listen to themselves.
I believe all three is in the OT.

Trinity in the OT:

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Isaiah 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Three seperate persons mentioned:

1) The Lord GOD = Adonai Jehovah = God the Father
2) His Spirit = The Holy Spirit
3) The LORD = Jehovah = God the Son, Jesus