If there is no Trinity, then

[Job_38]

The Bible contradicts itself. Heres why:

1) Have no other Gods before me

2) There are no other Gods

3) Baptize in the name of the father, son, and the holy spirit

 

 If the Trinity does not exist, then the Bible is contradicting itself.

 

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by Job_38
The Bible contradicts itself. Heres why:
1) Have no other Gods before me
2) There are no other Gods
3) Baptize in the name of the father, son, and the holy spirit 
 If the Trinity does not exist, then the Bible is contradicting itself. 

job38, Since the bible says no such thing about God being a trinity, then scripture does not contradict itself!

If the trinity is true, then the NT contradicts the OT !

The New Testament was not written to contradict the Old Testament. Jesus says that he did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, (which is the Old Testament) but to fulfill them. So we can safely say that the same God of the Old Testament is the same God in the New Testament. 

 

[Job_38]

Franklin, no where in the doctine of the Trinity does it contradict the Bible. Christ came as the sacrafice for our sins, and only a perfect one would do, God is the only perfect being. Christ did fulfill the law, because He was God in the flesh. Immanuel[/i}

 

[franklin]

  Originally posted by Job_38
Franklin, no where in the doctine of the Trinity does it contradict the Bible.

Job, nowhere in the Bible is there any such thing as the trinity in either the word "trinity" nor the concept. 

Christ came as the sacrafice for our sins, and only a perfect one would do, God is the only perfect being. Christ did fulfill the law, because He was God in the flesh. Immanuel[/i}

Christ was begotten by the power spirit of God in the womb of Mary to be the sacrifice for our sins because He was a man of flesh and blood, He was made perfect through suffering in temptation against sin, God cannot be tempted, therefore your trinity is a false doctrine.  He was not God in the flesh as the trinity teaches, therefore the trinity contradicts scripture.  It is another invention of men. If He was God in the flesh then there is a contradiction in the following passage:

2 John 1:7, "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

Pay close attention Job, notice it doesn't say that God came in the flesh?  It says, Jesus Christ is come in the flesh!   Oh but here comes mans teaching saying, yeah but He was God in human form!  Sorry, that is not scriptural!  It is man's inventions!

 

[jlmizejr76]

My thoughts,

When I read through the scriptures I can see no such thing as the trinity. Yahshua the messiah did come in the flesh and he did ascend from the father. In the beginning the Son was with the Father. Read John 1:1-16. Even during the time of creation, the word or title GOD it is a plural, actually in hebrew would be Elohim.
with love
Johnnie

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by jlmizejr76
My thoughts,

When I read through the scriptures I can see no such thing as the trinity. Yahshua the messiah did come in the flesh and he did ascend from the father. In the beginning the Son was with the Father. Read John 1:1-16. Even during the time of creation, the word or title GOD it is a plural, actually in hebrew would be Elohim.
with love
Johnnie

I've seen your other thread on the pre-existence of Christ and I think that is what you are getting at here, however, the passages you are referring to in John 1 do not prove He pre-existed.  I posted comments on that here:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=584966#post584966

The Hebrew word you are referring to Elohyim is sometimes used to refer to "angels".  "Angels" are called "God" many times in scripture as well. The word "angels" in Psalm 8:5 is translated from Elohiym. That does not mean it is speaking of Christ as pre-existing.

Acts 23:9, "...but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God." To fight against an angel is like fighting against God, because he is God's minister.

Just because men and angels are called "God" in scripture, it does not mean they are God the Father. It means they are appointed and commissioned by the Father to act as His agents.

 

[Job_38]

The Trinity is a basic doctrine of orthodox Christianity. Yet the word "Trinity" is not found anywhere in the Bible. Is the doctrine of the Trinity really biblical?

The doctrine of the Trinity says that there is one God who exists eternally as three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I can assure you that the elements of this doctrine are all taken directly from the Bible.

The first plank of the Trinitarian platform is that there is only one God. The Bible could not be more explicit on this point, which it states explicitly about two dozen times. In Isaiah 44:8 God says that even He does not know of any other gods!

Jesus often spoke of God as His Father, and the apostles frequently spoke of "God the Father." But the New Testament also insists that Jesus is God. For example, Thomas acknowledged Jesus as, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28), and both Peter and Paul spoke of Jesus as "our God and Savior" (2 Pet. 1:1; ***. 2:13). Yet the New Testament also makes the distinction between the Father and the Son as two very different persons. In fact they tell us that they love one another, speak to each other, and seek to glorify each other (e.g., John 17: 1-26).

The Old Testament refers often to the Holy Spirit as God at work in the world, without distinction from the Father. But Jesus in John 14 to 16 explained that this Holy Spirit would be sent by the Father at Christ's request. The Holy Spirit would teach and guide the disciples, not speaking on His own initiative, but speaking on Christ's behalf and glorifying Christ. Thus, the Holy Spirit is revealed by Christ to be a third person distinct from the Father and distinct from the Son.

In short, the doctrine of the Trinity is completely and totally biblical, and it is essential that all Christians give assent to this doctrine.


This was taken from www.equip.org

I pray you read this. If not, I don't know.

 

[jlmizejr76]

Franklin,

Is Ps 8:4-5 a prophecy that was fulfilled in Messiah?

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by jlmizejr76
Is Ps 8:4-5 a prophecy that was fulfilled in Messiah?

"For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour".  Psalm 8:5

 

 

[franklin]

  Originally posted by Job_38
The Trinity is a basic doctrine of orthodox Christianity.

  Just because you think it's a doctrine of "orthodox" Christianity, doesn't mean it's Biblical. This so-called doctrine is so fundamental to Christendom, that it is just taken for granted by the majority of those who consider themselves born again. Most of those who continue to defend it don't even consider it necessary to even explain it. Anyone who comes along to challenge this strange doctrine is immediately considered as a heritic and a cultist! 

  Yet the word "Trinity" is not found anywhere in the Bible.

Niether is the concept, now shouldn't that tell you something?

 Is the doctrine of the Trinity really biblical?

Not only is it not considered a "doctrine" but it isn't even supported by scripture itself!  If anything it doesn't even rate as a theory.  A doctrine or theory that contradicts the OT by creating another God consisting of 3 persons and one substance is not even demonstrated by logic, commonsence or scriptural proof!

 
The doctrine of the Trinity says that there is one God who exists eternally as three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. 

The Bible says that God is always one and not three!  Therefore the trinity is not biblical and it is false!   

 I can assure you that the elements of this doctrine are all taken directly from the Bible.

The scripture (not I) can assure you that the elements of this theory have been invented by the speculations of men along with their theological biases!  

This is all I have time for right now, so have a good evening....

 

[Wonder]

If we say that the Trinity isn't in the OT. then we are saying it is only God working the in the OT. Yet we see God, Jesus, and the Spirit all working together in the OT. People always say stuff like Abraham represents God, Issac, Jesus, and take where they say that the servant that went to get Rebbeca represents the Spirit etc. People just needs to listen to themselves.
I believe all three is in the OT.

 

[greymooncrest]

i've been reading alot in this forum about the Trinity Doctrine and subsequent debates. Is it possible to use the Proper Term of Godhead instead of the manmade term Trinity? From here on I intend to.

Colossians 2:8-10

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men,  after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Romans 1:20

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power  and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The Anti-Nicene Fathers, Volume 2 - Fathers of the Second Century, The Pastor of Hermas, The Pastor Book 2 - Commandment 10, Chapter 1 - OF GRIEF, AND NOT GRIEVING THE SPIRIT OF GOD WHICH IS IN US

"Those who have never searched for the truth, nor investigated the nature of the Divinity, but have simply believed, when they devote themselves to and become mixed up with business, and wealth, and heathen friendships, and many other actions of this world, do not perceive the parables of Divinity; for their minds are darkened by these actions, and they are corrupted and become dried up. Even as beautiful vines, when they are neglected, are withered up by thorns and divers plants, so men who have believed, and have afterwards fallen away into many of those actions above mentioned, go astray in their minds, and lose all understanding in regard to righteousness; for if they hear of righteousness, their minds are occupied with their business, and they give no heed at all. Those, on the other hand, who have the fear of God, and search after Godhead and truth, and have their hearts turned to the Lord, quickly perceive and understand what is said to them, because they have the fear of the Lord in them. For where the Lord dwells, there is much understanding. Cleave, then, to the Lord, and you will understand and perceive all things."

 

[Zyon]

I just have to say this. I saw a comment early on that Christ was perfect.
But he wasn't. No human being can be perfect. And since he was born of a human, therefore he was not perfect. He just chose to live his life as if he was.

 

[Job_38]

Um...huh? That was because He was 100% Man and 100% God. Go and try to understand and explain it anymore and you will go insane.

 

[jlmizejr76]

Originally posted by Zyon
I just have to say this. I saw a comment early on that Christ was perfect.
But he wasn't. No human being can be perfect. And since he was born of a human, therefore he was not perfect. He just chose to live his life as if he was.

The Messiah was without spot or blemish, your statement is false

respectfully

Johnnie

 

[Zyon]

How can you be 100% of something and 100% of something else?

I do like the way you talk Johnnie.

 

[jlmizejr76]

Dont look at it in this light, try a different angle.  He wasnt 200% of spirit, and flesh. He did have full measure. Remember we have to worship YHWH in spirit and truth.  We have our own spirit that is deciectful, and that is why we want to have YHWH's Holy Spirit. These two spirits will struggle if you let them, but when you accept the Holy Spirit in your life, you start a new work which is working to perfect your spirit as well.  The Messiah was born of the Holy Spirit, and He didnt have this issue.  He didnt allow Satan to overcome him, and I feel that if he would have then Yahshua wouldnt have been our Savoir.  But he was, and he Fulfilled the Prophecies and this is how I know he is the Son.

 

Johnnie

 

[Terak]

I can't wait to get involved in this one but it's too late right now so I'll just hold off.

God Bless and Goodnight Everyone.

 

 

[Ben johnson]

I just have to say this. I saw a comment early on that Christ was perfect.
But he wasn't. No human being can be perfect. And since he was born of a human, therefore he was not perfect. He just chose to live his life as if he was.

All spiders have eight legs.
This creature that I found has eight legs.
Therefore it is a spider.

(Actually, it was a crab...)

The assumption (that "no Human can be perfect") is based on your experience. In your encounters, you have not met a perfect Human. And there is a reason for that---we all have the same ancestory. "By one man's sin, all sinned". Rom5

Jesus cheated---having no Earthly Father, He did not inherit Adam's sin-nature. Jesus knew no sin (1Cor5:21).

How can you be 100% of something and 100% of something else?

I am 100% Human. A man. I also have a spirit----my spirit is 100% Human.

Jesus was born of Mary, and was 100% Human. Jesus had a Spirit---His Spirit was 100% DIVINE.

Jesus existed before He was born---He was always divine. While He was fesh, He remained divine.

I did not exist before I was born. I was not, I now am; I am now Human.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

If there is no Trinity there is the problem of who God loved prior to the Creation.... a thorny philosophical problem indeed.