If theistic evolution, how can God save a raven?

[thomas_t]

Hi everyone,
I don't believe theistic evolution is true and I'd like to challenge believers from the evolutionist side again:
The ToE is about survival of the fittest. If animals can't find food, they simply die. The ones best adapted to their environment survive. According to that theory, if I understand it right.

Now Job 38:41 says:
Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God for help, and wander about for lack of food?

To my knowledge, the ToE does not leave any room for interventions like this. God helping animals wandering for lack of food out of love?

Regards,
Thomas

 

[Carl Emerson]

Jonah 4:11
God's love for animals...

“Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?”

Luke 12:6

“Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God. “Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.

 

[dqhall]

Hi everyone,
I don't believe theistic evolution is true and I'd like to challenge believers from the evolutionist side again:
The ToE is about survival of the fittest. If animals can't find food, they simply die. The ones best adapted to their environment survive. According to that theory, if I understand it right.

Now Job 38:41 says:
Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God for help, and wander about for lack of food?

To my knowledge, the ToE does not leave any room for interventions like this. God helping animals wandering for lack of food out of love?

Regards,
Thomas

If God created life over millions of years, there would be fossil evidence of it in sedimentary strata over a mile thick in some places.

Biblical archaeology has shown the Bible is part truth and part fiction.

 

[Job 33:6]

Hi everyone,
I don't believe theistic evolution is true and I'd like to challenge believers from the evolutionist side again:
The ToE is about survival of the fittest. If animals can't find food, they simply die. The ones best adapted to their environment survive. According to that theory, if I understand it right.

Now Job 38:41 says:
Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God for help, and wander about for lack of food?

To my knowledge, the ToE does not leave any room for interventions like this. God helping animals wandering for lack of food out of love?

Regards,
Thomas

I think this verse is simply suggesting that God provides for those in need. I don't see any reason to believe it should be literally interpreted to mean that God makes worms fall from the sky whenever a bird is hungry.

 

[thomas_t]

... after a little break...

I don't see any reason to believe it should be literally interpreted to mean that God makes worms fall from the sky whenever a bird is hungry.

I don't either, because that's not the text, but I'm in favor of literal translation when possible, if it's not prophecy.

I think this verse is simply suggesting that God provides for those in need.

Absolutely.
In contrast, the Theory of Evolution proposes that if an animal survives, it means it was well adapted to their environment. It gives the credit to the animals themselves. I conclude, the proposition of a caring God is in direct contradiction to what the ToE teaches here.

 

[Job 33:6]

... after a little break...

I don't either, because that's not the text, but I'm in favor of literal translation when possible, if it's not prophecy.


Absolutely.
In contrast, the Theory of Evolution proposes that if an animal survives, it means it was well adapted to their environment. It gives the credit to the animals themselves. I conclude, the proposition of a caring God is in direct contradiction to what the ToE teaches here.

I survive because I am well adapted for my environment. If I were in Iraq right now, I might be killed. If I were in Antarctica I would freeze to death.

Is this in contradiction with God's teachings too?

 

[thomas_t]

I survive because I am well adapted for my environment. If I were in Iraq right now, I might be killed. If I were in Antarctica I would freeze to death.
Is this in contradiction with God's teachings too?

good question, Komatiite.
Let's see what Bible has to say in this regard.

But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? Matthew 6:30.
So if you get your clothing because you're so well adapted... why this verse so then?

Give us this day our daily bread Matthew 6:11.
If you get the daily bread because you are so well adapted... why would there be any need for this prayer to God?

The bows of the mighty are broken, but the feeble bind on strength. 1 Samuel 2:4
If someone is strong can you also say well adapted for his environment? And those who are not... aren't they feeble in the sense of this verse and this verse applies to them?

Thomas

 

[Job 33:6]

good question, Komatiite.
Let's see what Bible has to say in this regard.

But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? Matthew 6:30.
So if you get your clothing because you're so well adapted... why this verse so then?

Give us this day our daily bread Matthew 6:11.
If you get the daily bread because you are so well adapted... why would there be any need for this prayer to God?

The bows of the mighty are broken, but the feeble bind on strength. 1 Samuel 2:4
If someone is strong can you also say well adapted for his environment? And those who are not... aren't they feeble in the sense of this verse and this verse applies to them?

Thomas

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

"So if you get your clothing because you're so well adapted... why this verse so then?"

All I'm saying is that if I were in Antarctica, I would die from the cold. The same goes for any animal. So the question is, why would this reality contradict scripture?

 

[thomas_t]

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

"So if you get your clothing because you're so well adapted... why this verse so then?"

You've asked me a question if your thinking in this regard contradicts scripture. In my opinion, the answer is obvious when you answer the following question:
So let me rephrase the question I asked you:
If it would be you getting the credit for surviving... then why would God have written the verse Give us this day our daily bread Matthew 6:11. ..? Is it you who ensures your survival because of being well adapted ... or is it God?
At the same time it is true you would certainly die in Antartica...

 

[Job 33:6]

You've asked me a question if your thinking in this regard contradicts scripture. In my opinion, the answer is obvious when you answer the following question:
So let me rephrase the question I asked you:
If it would be you getting the credit for surviving... then why would God have written the verse Give us this day our daily bread Matthew 6:11. ..? Is it you who ensures your survival because of being well adapted ... or is it God?
At the same time it is true you would certainly die in Antartica...

Just as with a frog, it is God who ensures my survival by allowing me to adapt to my environment so that I do not freeze and die in the cold.

That would be my answer. This doesn't contradict scripture nor the theory of evolution however.

It is truth that I and other forms of life survive because we are well adapted.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Psalm 104 it pretty strong regarding His ongoing interaction with creation and that He provides sustenance on an on going basis.

24O LORD, how many are Your works!
In wisdom You have made them all;
The earth is full of Your possessions.

25There is the sea, great and broad,
In which are swarms without number,
Animals both small and great.

26There the ships move along,
And Leviathan, which You have formed to sport in it.

27They all wait for You
To give them their food in due season.

28You give to them, they gather it up;
You open Your hand, they are satisfied with good.

29You hide Your face, they are dismayed;
You take away their spirit, they expire
And return to their dust.

30You send forth Your Spirit, they are created;
And You renew the face of the ground.

31Let the glory of the LORD endure forever;
Let the LORD be glad in His works;

 

[thomas_t]

It is truth that I and other forms of life survive because we are well adapted.

That was my point of contention. If this is the reason you can survive... why would God have had the above verse written Give us this day our daily bread Matthew 6:11? Is this verse about adaptation/ natural selection? Or is it rather about God's interaction with man?
Did Ishmael survive in the desert because he was so well adapted or because God helped him through?
Genesis 21:17 And God heard the voice of the boy, [...]
Carl has cleared this up already, I think:

Psalm 104 it pretty strong regarding His ongoing interaction with creation and that He provides sustenance on an on going basis.

Amen Carl.

 

[Job 33:6]

That was my point of contention. If this is the reason you can survive... why would God have had the above verse written Give us this day our daily bread Matthew 6:11? Is this verse about adaptation/ natural selection? Or is it rather about God's interaction with man?
Did Ishmael survive in the desert because he was so well adapted or because God helped him through?
Genesis 21:17 And God heard the voice of the boy, [...]
Carl has cleared this up already, I think:


Amen Carl.

"That was my point of contention. If this is the reason you can survive... why would God have had the above verse written Give us this day our daily bread Matthew 6:11? "

This question doesn't change the reality that I am alive because I am adapted for my environment. If I got in a plane and flew to Antarctica, I would immediately die as I wouldn't be adapted to the environment.

You can ask whatever rhetorical question you want, reality is what it is.

 

[thomas_t]

This question doesn't change the reality that I am alive because I am adapted for my environment.

if this is the case, why would God have included the cited passage into his Bible so then? If the reality is as you describe it, this prayer would have been useless. But God doesn't post useless stuff in his Bible. If being well adapted would suffice to survive, then nothing the Almighty could do would be needed.

If I got in a plane and flew to Antarctica, I would immediately die as I wouldn't be adapted to the environment.

you would die in the desert, too. You wouldn't be adapted to survive there.
Ishmael would have died, because he was not adapted, either. And yet he survived, cause God helped him. Genesis 21:20.
There is just no verse about Antartica in the Bible because it is hot in Israel. That's why I chose the desert as my example here.
Your reality is not Biblical reality, in my opinion. However, Bible is truth, whereas reasoning of man can err.
Thomas

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I think your mistake is assuming the believers in TE do not believe God has a hand in both the development and survival of life. Of course He does!

 

[Sheila Davis]

Hi everyone,
I don't believe theistic evolution is true and I'd like to challenge believers from the evolutionist side again:
The ToE is about survival of the fittest. If animals can't find food, they simply die. The ones best adapted to their environment survive. According to that theory, if I understand it right.

Now Job 38:41 says:
Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God for help, and wander about for lack of food?

To my knowledge, the ToE does not leave any room for interventions like this. God helping animals wandering for lack of food out of love?

Regards,
Thomas

1) I understand what you're saying evolution says survival of the fittest - is actually that true? Look at the dinosaurs and there is evidence, that they once roamed the Earth. It would seem that they would be able to adapt and survive more so than a raven or a chicken or any of the species in existence today. According to the theory of evolution dinosaurs, certain ones, had to be in order for evolution to continue, became extinct 65 plus million years ago. Meteorite, struck the Earth and wipe them out. Even the smallest dinosaurs were unique strong and fit. Climate change, instead of adapting, they evolved into something else, which took millions of years. God wipe them off the face of Eden ( I feel the Earth is Eden and the garden was specially made for man) making room for man and his judgement.
2) I can see a unique similarity between evolution and creation - they actually coincide -both say 1st the heaven and the Earth then the plants, then the marine life, then the animal life on land, then man. Plus the fact that scripture says God told the Earth to bring forth live - giving way to a simple analysis of his creation tactic.
3) In evolution, though they say life came from space, it was the Earth that evolved those living organisms, to the point that it is now.
4) And if you think on what scripture actually says: it tells mankind to be strong and resist not to be weak and give in. That is *a form of* survival of the fittest. God set forth a chain of food supplies for the animals - which continued until this day. At the fall of Adam, the Earth herself and all its inhabitants came under the curse of time and death - death which time brings.
5) God is not concerned with the Flesh of man or the Flesh of animals - God is concerned with the spirit within man, it is the spirit within man that will be damned or saved. There are no rules or sentences for animals, but there is for man. There are no new bodies for animals, but there is for man, in the new Heaven and the new Earth.

 

[Smokie]

Hi everyone,
I don't believe theistic evolution is true and I'd like to challenge believers from the evolutionist side again:
The ToE is about survival of the fittest. If animals can't find food, they simply die. The ones best adapted to their environment survive. According to that theory, if I understand it right.

Now Job 38:41 says:
Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God for help, and wander about for lack of food?

To my knowledge, the ToE does not leave any room for interventions like this. God helping animals wandering for lack of food out of love?

Regards,
Thomas

You are fully wrong because humans intervene all the time.

LOL

 

[Sheila Davis]

what were you saying you know

Hi everyone,
I don't believe theistic evolution is true and I'd like to challenge believers from the evolutionist side again:
The ToE is about survival of the fittest. If animals can't find food, they simply die. The ones best adapted to their environment survive. According to that theory, if I understand it right.

Now Job 38:41 says:
Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God for help, and wander about for lack of food?

To my knowledge, the ToE does not leave any room for interventions like this. God helping animals wandering for lack of food out of love?

Regards,
Thomas

Job's or the writer's view of the love of God for all his creation and providing for them.
Insects and all creeping things -which the birds eat is how God provides for them .... Millions species of both insect and bird - birds will never run out of food as long as there are insects .... God has provided for them.
God's love provides for mankind too, but we too, have to get up go out and get it, even though we may cry for help from him - as well as all other animals.
Those first amoebas / living bacteria / organisms, that came from space down to earth and started the process of all living life, what did they eat to survive? What did they eat to carry them through the process of evolution, evolving them into the first marine creature. Seems to me food shouldn't even be necessary, starting from the beginning of the evolutionary stage, there was no food - if so what? Each other? Why would they even need food if they could live in space?

 

[Smokie]

what were you saying you know

Job's or the writer's view of the love of God for all his creation and providing for them.
Insects and all creeping things -which the birds eat is how God provides for them .... Millions species of both insect and bird - birds will never run out of food as long as there are insects .... God has provided for them.
God's love provides for mankind too, but we too, have to get up go out and get it, even though we may cry for help from him - as well as all other animals.
Those first amoebas / living bacteria / organisms, that came from space down to earth and started the process of all living life, what did they eat to survive? What did they eat to carry them through the process of evolution, evolving them into the first marine creature. Seems to me food shouldn't even be necessary, starting from the beginning of the evolutionary stage, there was no food - if so what? Each other? Why would they even need food if they could live in space?

To answer your question as to what early life ate, the answer is clear as photosynthesis results in both sugar and Oxygen.

 

[Sheila Davis]

To answer your question as to what early life ate, the answer is clear as photosynthesis results in both sugar and Oxygen.

I thought that applied basically to plants and algae. Oh there is the autotrophs.