If the world is reconciled to God

[ClementofA]

If the world is reconciled to God & He is not holding their sins against them, explain why the following verses do not support eventual universal salvation. Do not bring up alleged anti-universalist "proof texts" from other contexts of the Scriptures (e.g. Jn.3:16), but base your argument on the following texts, such as the meaning of "reconciliation":

Well, to you salvation is a process, to me it is a done deal. Thanks to Christ who did the deal. You seem to want to continue to view Christ's death as a possible salvation, I view it as a realized salvation. Good for you, good for me, whatever be the thought. Let's let the others view and believe for them selves.

Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom 5:11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

2Co 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[Hank77]

2Co 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The answer is in the scripture you posted.

"we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."

God reconciled Himself to the world, the world needs to be reconciled to God and that happens on an individual basis.

In the Romans scriptures Who is Paul speaking to?

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Clement, while separating certain verses and passages from the whole of Scripture does allow one to bend their intended meaning to fit a particular presupposition, do you think that's really what God wants us to do with His word? The Scriptures are replete with the idea that the Lord's salvation will only be applied to those who have faith/trust in Him and in what He did for us, and that He intends to save us in this way alone. IOW, salvation is for those want it, who "believe", have been justified, and are therefore "in Christ", not for those who refuse to believe and want nothing at all to do with God.

Reconciling the "world" to Himself, Biblically, means that all tribes/nations, etc. in the world will be included in the reconciliation spoken of in 2 Corinthians (IOW, this reconciliation is not for the Jews alone).

Finally, you wanted us to address the Scriptures you gave us above directly, so I will attempt to do so, at least in part. One thing comes to mind immediately, if all persons, w/o exception, will be reconciled to God, why did the Lord give us the ministry of reconciliation and call us to appeal/beg others to be reconciled to Him, if it's going to happen to everyone anyway (whether they want it to or not)?

 

[ClementofA]

God reconciled Himself to the world, the world needs to be reconciled to God and that happens on an individual basis.

But the opening post states "If the world is reconciled to God". This is based on an interpretation of 2 Cor.5:19:

2 Cor 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

The verse doesn't say what you say, that "God reconciled Himself to the world". But rather God was reconciling the world - to Himself.

 

[Hank77]

The verse doesn't say what you say, that "God reconciled Himself to the world". But rather God was reconciling the world - to Himself.

You are correct. God reconciled the world to Himself. That is what I intended to say, thanks for the correction.

2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Now what does this verse say? Who needs to reconcile themselves to God?

You could forgive your neighbor for offending you and hold nothing against him, but if he doesn't want your forgiveness it's a one sided reconciliation.

 

[ClementofA]

Hi Clement, while separating certain verses and passages from the whole of Scripture does allow one to bend their intended meaning to fit a particular presupposition, do you think that's really what God wants us to do with His word? The Scriptures are replete with the idea that the Lord's salvation will only be applied to those who have faith/trust in Him and in what He did for us, and that He intends to save us in this way alone. IOW, salvation is for those want it, who "believe", have been justified, and are therefore "in Christ", not for those who refuse to believe and want nothing at all to do with God.

The universalist doesn't deny the requirement of faith for salvation, but says that all will eventually do so. He might argue from 1 Tim.4:10 that God IS the Saviour of all, & claim that there is a sense in which the cross has effected salvation for all. All just do not yet realize it & experience it. But in due time Love Omnipotent, i.e. their Creator, God, will bring all to that knowledge & blessedness. Whether it is through irresistible grace or in cooperation with the liberty of their libertarian free will.

Reconciling the "world" to Himself, Biblically, means that all tribes/nations, etc. in the world will be included in the reconciliation spoken of in 2 Corinthians (IOW, this reconciliation is not for the Jews alone).

Ok, thanks for that take on it. A Reformed/Calvinist view, i presume. Can you elaborate on why that should be the interpretation of "world" in this particular context? Did Jesus become sin & die only for the sins of a few:

2Co 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Finally, you wanted us to address the Scriptures you gave us above directly, so I will attempt to do so, at least in part. One thing comes to mind immediately, if all persons, w/o exception, will be reconciled to God, why did the Lord give us the ministry of reconciliation and call us to appeal/beg others to be reconciled to Him, if it's going to happen to everyone anyway (whether they want it to or not)?

I suppose one answer to that, from a universalist perspective, would be that the "ministry" of reconciliation is to let people know what is stated in verse 19, that all humanity is now reconciled to God since Jesus' sacrifice c. 30 A.D. & that He is therefore no longer holding their sins against them. By believing that one experiences the reality of it. Otherwise one suffers the consequences of sin in this life & or the after life. Such does not necessarily exclude the possibility of God's corrective wrath & or chastening on His created beings (e.g. 1 Cor.5:4-5; Mt.25:46) for the purpose of them experiencing the salvation He obtained for them at Calvary. Comments?

 

[ClementofA]

Now what does this verse say? Who needs to reconcile themselves to God?

2 Cor. 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

You could forgive your neighbor for offending you and hold nothing against him, but if he doesn't want your forgiveness it's a one sided reconciliation.

Good points. Verse 20 appears to indicate a need for reconciliation. OTOH, if verse 19 says that reconciliation is already a done deal, is it a contradiction? How do you harmonize the two statements?

2 Cor. 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Is Romans 5 saying that the cross reconciled everyone, but in addition to that people need to "receive" it (by believing it) :

Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom 5:11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

But, then, if the cross has reconciled everyone & God is no longer holding their sins against them, does this not guarantee that all will eventually be saved?

Rom.11:15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

 

[bugkiller]

If the world is reconciled to God & He is not holding their sins against them, explain why the following verses do not support eventual universal salvation. Do not bring up alleged anti-universalist "proof texts" from other contexts of the Scriptures (e.g. Jn.3:16), but base your argument on the following texts, such as the meaning of "reconciliation":



Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom 5:11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

2Co 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

In reading your quotes I find it is only those who accept reconciliation (Christians) that are reconciled. Thus is is not the world.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Hi Clement, while separating certain verses and passages from the whole of Scripture does allow one to bend their intended meaning to fit a particular presupposition, do you think that's really what God wants us to do with His word? The Scriptures are replete with the idea that the Lord's salvation will only be applied to those who have faith/trust in Him and in what He did for us, and that He intends to save us in this way alone. IOW, salvation is for those want it, who "believe", have been justified, and are therefore "in Christ", not for those who refuse to believe and want nothing at all to do with God.

Reconciling the "world" to Himself, Biblically, means that all tribes/nations, etc. in the world will be included in the reconciliation spoken of in 2 Corinthians (IOW, this reconciliation is not for the Jews alone).

Finally, you wanted us to address the Scriptures you gave us above directly, so I will attempt to do so, at least in part. One thing comes to mind immediately, if all persons, w/o exception, will be reconciled to God, why did the Lord give us the ministry of reconciliation and call us to appeal/beg others to be reconciled to Him, if it's going to happen to everyone anyway (whether they want it to or not)?

Excellent question.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

But the opening post states "If the world is reconciled to God". This is based on an interpretation of 2 Cor.5:19:

2 Cor 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

The verse doesn't say what you say, that "God reconciled Himself to the world". But rather God was reconciling the world - to Himself.

Is Jn 3:16 true?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

You are correct. God reconciled the world to Himself. That is what I intended to say, thanks for the correction.


Now what does this verse say? Who needs to reconcile themselves to God?

You could forgive your neighbor for offending you and hold nothing against him, but if he doesn't want your forgiveness it's a one sided reconciliation.

IOW nothing is reconciled.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The universalist doesn't deny the requirement of faith for salvation, but says that all will eventually do so. He might argue from 1 Tim.4:10 that God IS the Saviour of all, & claim that there is a sense in which the cross has effected salvation for all. All just do not yet realize it & experience it. But in due time Love Omnipotent, i.e. their Creator, God, will bring all to that knowledge & blessedness. Whether it is through irresistible grace or in cooperation with the liberty of their libertarian free will.



Ok, thanks for that take on it. A Reformed/Calvinist view, i presume. Can you elaborate on why that should be the interpretation of "world" in this particular context? Did Jesus become sin & die only for the sins of a few:

2Co 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.




I suppose one answer to that, from a universalist perspective, would be that the "ministry" of reconciliation is to let people know what is stated in verse 19, that all humanity is now reconciled to God since Jesus' sacrifice c. 30 A.D. & that He is therefore no longer holding their sins against them. By believing that one experiences the reality of it. Otherwise one suffers the consequences of sin in this life & or the after life. Such does not necessarily exclude the possibility of God's corrective wrath & or chastening on His created beings (e.g. 1 Cor.5:4-5; Mt.25:46) for the purpose of them experiencing the salvation He obtained for them at Calvary. Comments?

What you present makes Jesus death vain having no real purpose because everyone is going to be reconciled (made right with God) with or without Jesus.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Good points. Verse 20 appears to indicate a need for reconciliation. OTOH, if verse 19 says that reconciliation is already a done deal, is it a contradiction? How do you harmonize the two statements?

2 Cor. 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Is Romans 5 saying that the cross reconciled everyone, but in addition to that people need to "receive" it (by believing it) :

Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom 5:11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

But, then, if the cross has reconciled everyone & God is no longer holding their sins against them, does this not guarantee that all will eventually be saved?

Rom.11:15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Your argument is self contradictory.

bugkiller

 

[royal priest]

Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom 5:11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

In verse 10, Paul refers to reconciliation as a past event. 'we were reconciled through the death of His Son'. Then in verse 11, Paul refers to reconciliation as something that 'we have now received'. This reconciliation of the 'now' results in a change of the relationship between the sinner and God. Sinners go from being God's 'enemies' to those who 'exult in God'. There is a real, conscious, life-changing effect on the one who has been reconciled to God

2Co 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

This present effect of reconciliation was manifested through the Apostles in that they were appointed to carry out a 'ministry of reconciliation'. Through them, God is 'making an appeal'. The substance of this appeal is begging with sinners to 'be reconciled to God'.

 

[ClementofA]

What you present makes Jesus death vain having no real purpose because everyone is going to be reconciled (made right with God) with or without Jesus.

bugkiller

To the contrary, the Christian universalist says all will be saved through Christ & Him crucified, as there is salvation in no other. Without Him no one would be saved. Furthermore, universalism does not deny a corrective "hell".

 

[Hank77]

Good points. Verse 20 appears to indicate a need for reconciliation. OTOH, if verse 19 says that reconciliation is already a done deal, is it a contradiction? How do you harmonize the two statements?

The two statements don't say the same thing.
Maybe you could explain how you think they are saying the same thing?

 

[ClementofA]

In verse 10, Paul refers to reconciliation as a past event. 'we were reconciled through the death of His Son'. Then in verse 11, Paul refers to reconciliation as something that 'we have now received'. This reconciliation of the 'now' results in a change of the relationship between the sinner and God. Sinners go from being God's 'enemies' to those who 'exult in God'. There is a real, conscious, life-changing effect on the one who has been reconciled to God.

If enemies (all mankind) were reconciled at the cross, then how is it they are still enemies? Can one who is reconciled to God, by God, be - considered by God as - His enemy, even if unbelievers consider themselves to be (or act as) enemies of God, especially when He is no longer holding their sins against them (2 Cor.5:19)?

Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom 5:11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
2 Cor. 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

This present effect of reconciliation was manifested through the Apostles in that they were appointed to carry out a 'ministry of reconciliation'. Through them, God is 'making an appeal'. The substance of this appeal is begging with sinners to 'be reconciled to God'.

Since the world is reconciled to God & He is no longer holding their sins against them, how is it that all will not eventually be saved?

Rom.11:15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

 

[ClementofA]

The two statements don't say the same thing.
Maybe you could explain how you think they are saying the same thing?

One statement is that God is already reconciled to the world, not holding their sins against them. (2 Cor.5:19; Rom.5:10-15; 11:15).

The second statement is the ministry that tells the world to be reconciled to God. (2 Cor.5:18-21).

If they are already reconciled, why tell them to be reconciled? Is it a contradiction? Or is the idea that they don't know the good news, namely that they are already reconciled to God & He's not holding their sins against them? Therefore go tell them. So that they may believe & be blessed by this happy message. And if all that's true, how is it that all won't eventually accept, believe & enjoy this truth?

 

[royal priest]

If enemies (all mankind) were reconciled at the cross, then how is it they are still enemies? Can one who is reconciled to God, by God, be - considered by God as - His enemy, even if unbelievers consider themselves to be (or act as) enemies of God, especially when He is no longer holding their sins against them (2 Cor.5:19)?

Reconciliation was accomplished at the death of Jesus. But it was effected when His enemies began exulting in God. As far as the scope of reconciliation, we know this much: world does mean, at the very least, every tribe, nation, tongue (worldwide) without exception. Anything beyond that is yet to be seen.

Since the world is reconciled to God & He is no longer holding their sins against them, how is it that all will not eventually be saved?

I don't know how or why. All we know for sure is that, so far, not all of the world is or has been exulting in God.

 

[Noxot]

we were reconciled in many ways depending on the available routes each soul is able to take. some were so darkened that God had to act like them and talk like them in some measure in order to steer them closer to himself and further away from potential dangers.

Jesus not only fulfilled the law according to the divine wisdom but also by the fallen spirit of humanity because he showed how they viewed God by how they treated him and what they made out of what happened to him. sadly enough it was a step upwards, which is why God did it. he also made something out of this fallen human nature, purified it in a way that only God taking it upon himself could do. he literally restructured the spiritual world that was formed by the condition of the fleshly humanity.

reconciliation with God is to not be his enemy. God had no problem with loving his enemies but his enemies had some big problems with loving him. God was working with the most crude and blind of souls. there is a long ways up to the vision of God.