If the New Covenant was made with Judah and Israel, how does it apply to Gentile Christians?

[jamespyles]

Possibly, but if the Council's decision was directed at Gentiles outside the Land, would the resident alien element even matter? The only way I could see around this would be if the Jewish community in Diaspora considered their community an extension of the Land of Israel.

Come to think of it, didn't the sages consider parts of other foreign nations part of the Land?

Terumot - Chapter 1

In its broadest sense, "resident aliens" might any Gentile within Jewish community, even in the galut.

 

[jgr]

Come to think of it, didn't the sages consider parts of other foreign nations part of the Land?

Terumot - Chapter 1

Is this part of the Talmudic "Traditions of the Elders" which Christ declared "made the Word of God of none effect..."? (Mark 7:13)

 

[Steve Petersen]

Is this part of the Talmudic "Traditions of the Elders" which Christ declared "made the Word of God of none effect..."?

Matthew 23:Then Jesus tsaid to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you,

Deuteronomy 17:8 “If any case arises requiring decision between one kind of homicide and another, one kind of legal right and another, or one kind of assault and another, any case within your towns that is too difficult for you, then you shall arise and go up to the place that the Lord your God will choose. 9 And you shall come to the Levitical priests and to the judge who is in office in those days, and you shall consult them, and they shall declare to you the decision. 10 acts presumptuously by not obeying the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall purge the evil from Israel. 13 shall hear and fear and not act presumptuously again.

 

[jgr]

Matthew 23:13-33

 

[Ken Rank]

There is something I read stating that it's thought that there was a verbal commentary that went along with the letter, but of course, that's lost to history. All I can say is that given the Biblical narrative as a whole, my understanding makes the most sense to me, but of course, you and others disagree. In the end, I'm responsible before God for how I understand things and how I conduct my life.

I couldn't agree with you more!! You and are are joined by our belief and faith in the Lord and all he has done. We likely agree on most doctrinal points (which isn't necessary to be brothers) and we probably are not in line in less than 5% of our beliefs (also irrelevant in relation to us being brothers in messiah). The idea that being "of one mine and one accord" means we have to agree on all things is a modern and western belief. The ancient Hebraic understanding would have been "one in function." So being of one mind and one accord wasn't one in "form" but rather one in "function." We have a job to do in relation to the Kingdom, our callings are likely different YET work together to the good of the whole. And... we do indeed answer for what we understand and how we walk, we answer for ourselves. So by all means brothers, if you don't agree... stay your course.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[bibledoctrine]

Paul calls it a mystery:

Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

Ephesians 3:9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;

Romans 16:25 is a wrong application of the Mystery of Christ that was revealed to the Apostle Paul directly by the glorified Lord Christ Jesus. Romans 16:25 is entirely new truths spoke by the Lord to Paul, which the Lord never spoke to anyone before in time.

The mystery is a unique and distinctive message for the Body of Christ members today.

Abba Father - The Hope of Glory

It is a message that is absolutely different from anything that was preached before it and from anything that will be preached after it. The revelation of the mystery is in a class by itself, and certainly is not to be mixed with any other gospel or thought to be part of any other gospel.

Today, God desires each and every believer-saint to heed and understand the teaching of God to specifically “make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery” which Christ revealed to the apostle Paul in the epistles. A proper understanding of what it is that God is specifically doing today with His saints proceeds a effectual sanctification walk of faith. It must be recognized that today God is functioning predominately inside the spirit of man / woman in order to mature each believer in love and sanctification walk. In order to know God's will today each believer must know what the program of instruction is from God today. The book of Romans provides that introduction regarding the core sound Bible doctrines that pertain to the members of the Body of Christ today. A key revelation of the body of truths that were revealed in this book pertain to the revelation of the mystery.

The revelation of the mystery was given to Apostle Paul by the Risen and Glorified Lord Jesus Christ and is the most important message in the world today. Today's organized church and its many denominations would be much stronger if its members would take a stand for the truths revealed by Christ the Lord that are presented contained in Paul's writings. Christ revealed that today, after His resurrection, that believers are not to mix grace with law. I would ask each reader to prayerfully heed and seriously consider the message which Christ the LORD revealed to His apostle Paul.

Why is it called the Mystery?

1. Because it was kept secret. Romans 16:25 "---- the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began."

2. Because it was hid in God. Ephesians 3:9 "--- the mystery which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God ----"

3. Because it was hid from ages and from generations. Col.1:26 "even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations --"

Ephesians 3:5 "which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men --"

Here are three Biblical reasons why this revelation is called a mystery. It was kept secret, it was hid in God, and it was hid from ages and generations.

The word "mystery" means secret, and as it is used in the Bible, it means a "SACRED SECRET". But used with the article, it is called The Mystery or The Sacred Secret. This sets it apart from all other messages that God has revealed to mankind in the Bible.

Since it was kept secret, hid in God, This mystery cannot be found in the Old Testament. A phrase in Ephesians 3:8 "---- the unsearchable riches of Christ" also testifies to this fact. "Unseachable" means untraceable; that is, these riches of Christ that Paul talks about cannot be traced anywhere else in the Bible except in Paul's writings to the Body of Christ Church.

The mystery is mentioned at least six other verses which Christ revealed directly to Paul:

Ephesians 1:9 "Having made known unto us the Mystery of His will --"

Ephesians 3:3 "-- He made known unto me The Mystery --"

Ephesians 3:4 " -- ye may understand my knowledge in the Mystery of Christ"

Ephesians 6:19 " -- to make known The Mystery of the Gospel."

Colossians 4:3 " -- to speak the Mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds."

1 Timothy 3:9 " Holding The Mystery of the Faith in a pure conscience."

Why Did God Deal with A Secret?

In Romans chapter 9-11 God gives the realization and fact that the Nation of Israel would persist in rebellion. This was no surprise to God nor to His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. God know all along what Israel and the children of Israel would do, so He prepared another program of grace. Yes, God did in fact provide grace to the nation of Israel, but this grace was specifically intermixed with the Law of Moses. Now this new program of God's grace was setup with no intermixing with the Law of Moses. Christ Jesus established this new program with a new apostle for this grace. But God was gracious to Israel to ensure that this new apostle of this grace program would also first come out of the genealogy of Israel, not to insult Israel. But did it surprise Israel? Israel's prophets of old searched the scriptures for what God would do and when He would accomplish it. God's new program was planned before the foundation of the world, but no revelation by God was ever revealed to any of Israel's prophets, not even the greatest of them: Moses. This grace program was “kept secret”, Romans 16:25, and was “hid in God”, Ephesians 3:9, until the appointed time. Today this grace is God's program for all saints, Jew or Gentile.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

Throughout the Gospels of the Lord's earthly ministry, Peter was never revealed this mystery. God did reveal kingdom mystery truths inside many of His parables to teach Israel about kingdom living and kingdom values which He was bringing to this nation. Peter and the twelve Jewish disciples & apostles preached only to the nation of Israel; Jesus the Lord only preached to the nation of Israel. The program of grace and Moses Law that Jesus preached was fully know inside the Old Testament Scriptures: even “God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began”, Acts 3:21. But that which the apostle Paul speaks was “kept secret since the world began”, Romans 16:24. It is also true that the Lord spoke of things “which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world”, but the Lord said that these secrets were revealed “That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet”. Spoken by the prophets! The mystery program that God revealed to Paul was NEVER spoken by the prophets!!! That IS the difference in these two programs of grace.

Matthew 13:34,35 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world

Look at what God reveals to Paul to write in Ephesians:

Ephesians 3:2-5 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you- ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit

This mystery was made know not for the salvation of the Gentiles, Romans 15:12, but for the Body of Christ in which both Gentiles and Jews would have equal standing with God.

To whom was this mystery revealed?

This mystery was revealed to the apostle Paul. He was the ONLY apostle to be taught the mystery which was personally revealed to him by the Lord Jesus Christ. The Gospel of the Kingdom had twelve disciples and apostles, but the revelation of the mystery had only one apostle, whom Christ choose after His resurrection, in like manner as how Jesus choose His twelve Jewish disciples. The choice by the Lord Jesus Christ is clear in multiple scriptures, including Galatians 1, 2, Colossians 1, Ephesians 2, 3, Acts 20:

Galatians 2:7, ".. the gospel of the uncircumcision was COMMITTED UNTO ME .."

Ephesians 3:2, ".. which is given me to you-ward"

Colossians 1:25, ".. which is given to me for you..",

Galatians 1:11,"..the gospel which was preached of me.."

Acts 20:24 "--so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the Gospel of the Grace of God."

Eph.3:7 "Whereof I was made a minister --"

Col.1:23,25 "-- the hope of the gospel which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister --- Whereof I am made a minister --"

The Lord Jesus Christ made a important and unique revelation to Paul regarding His mystery. A very important rule should be seen, which is when Paul writes about RECEIVING this message from Christ he writes in the SINGULAR, and when he writes in the PLURAL, for others labored with him.

Paul's APOSTLESHIP did not come from men nor from the twelve Jewish disciples, on the contrary, God sent His Son the Lord Jesus Christ to reveal it to His chosen apostle of the Gentiles:

Galatians 1:15, 16, " But when it pleased God, who SEPARATED me from my mother's womb, and called me by His grace, to reveal His Son in me, that I might PREACH Him among the heathen".

Galatians 2:8, "For He that wrought effectually in Peter to the Apostleship of the Circumcision, THE SAME was MIGHTY IN ME toward the Gentiles."

Acts 9:15, "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he (Saul-Paul) is a CHOSEN vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel."

Paul was called to be THE Apostle to the Gentiles. He says he was a teacher, an Apostle, a preacher, and a minister to the Gentiles.

Did any of the twelve claim that they had a ministry to the Gentiles?

1 Tim.2:7, "Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an Apostle (I speak the truth in Christ and lie not), a TEACHER of the GENTILES in faith and verity."

2 Tim.1:11, "Whereunto I am appointed a PREACHER, and an Apostle, and a TEACHER of the GENTILES."

Acts 26:16,17 "... to make thee a MINISTER and a witness ... delivering thee from the people and from the GENTILES, unto WHOM now I send thee."

Romans 11:13, "For I speak to you GENTILES, inasmuch as I am The Apostle of the GENTILES, I MAGNIFY mine office."

Romans 15:16, "That I should be the MINISTER of Jesus Christ to the GENTILES..."

These scriptures reveal some amazing truths. The twelve Jewish disciples were to go to the Gentiles AFTER the Nation of Israel had repented (Acts 1:8 with Isaiah 48:20). BUT ISRAEL DID NOT REPENT !! Therefore, the Gentiles are now being saved through their FALL (Israel) (see Romans 11:11,12), and this, by the Gospel of the Grace of God revealed to the Apostle Paul.

Abba Father - The Hope of Glory

 

[BABerean2]

Romans 16:25 is a wrong application of the Mystery of Christ that was revealed to the Apostle Paul directly by the glorified Lord Christ Jesus. Romans 16:25 is entirely new truths spoke by the Lord to Paul, which the Lord never spoke to anyone before in time.

The mystery is a unique and distinctive message for the Body of Christ members today.

Abba Father - The Hope of Glory

It is a message that is absolutely different from anything that was preached before it and from anything that will be preached after it. The revelation of the mystery is in a class by itself, and certainly is not to be mixed with any other gospel or thought to be part of any other gospel.

Today, God desires each and every believer-saint to heed and understand the teaching of God to specifically “make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery” which Christ revealed to the apostle Paul in the epistles. A proper understanding of what it is that God is specifically doing today with His saints proceeds a effectual sanctification walk of faith. It must be recognized that today God is functioning predominately inside the spirit of man / woman in order to mature each believer in love and sanctification walk. In order to know God's will today each believer must know what the program of instruction is from God today. The book of Romans provides that introduction regarding the core sound Bible doctrines that pertain to the members of the Body of Christ today. A key revelation of the body of truths that were revealed in this book pertain to the revelation of the mystery.

The revelation of the mystery was given to Apostle Paul by the Risen and Glorified Lord Jesus Christ and is the most important message in the world today. Today's organized church and its many denominations would be much stronger if its members would take a stand for the truths revealed by Christ the Lord that are presented contained in Paul's writings. Christ revealed that today, after His resurrection, that believers are not to mix grace with law. I would ask each reader to prayerfully heed and seriously consider the message which Christ the LORD revealed to His apostle Paul.

Why is it called the Mystery?

1. Because it was kept secret. Romans 16:25 "---- the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began."

2. Because it was hid in God. Ephesians 3:9 "--- the mystery which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God ----"

3. Because it was hid from ages and from generations. Col.1:26 "even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations --"

Ephesians 3:5 "which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men --"

Here are three Biblical reasons why this revelation is called a mystery. It was kept secret, it was hid in God, and it was hid from ages and generations.

The word "mystery" means secret, and as it is used in the Bible, it means a "SACRED SECRET". But used with the article, it is called The Mystery or The Sacred Secret. This sets it apart from all other messages that God has revealed to mankind in the Bible.

Since it was kept secret, hid in God, This mystery cannot be found in the Old Testament. A phrase in Ephesians 3:8 "---- the unsearchable riches of Christ" also testifies to this fact. "Unseachable" means untraceable; that is, these riches of Christ that Paul talks about cannot be traced anywhere else in the Bible except in Paul's writings to the Body of Christ Church.

The mystery is mentioned at least six other verses which Christ revealed directly to Paul:

Ephesians 1:9 "Having made known unto us the Mystery of His will --"

Ephesians 3:3 "-- He made known unto me The Mystery --"

Ephesians 3:4 " -- ye may understand my knowledge in the Mystery of Christ"

Ephesians 6:19 " -- to make known The Mystery of the Gospel."

Colossians 4:3 " -- to speak the Mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds."

1 Timothy 3:9 " Holding The Mystery of the Faith in a pure conscience."

Why Did God Deal with A Secret?

In Romans chapter 9-11 God gives the realization and fact that the Nation of Israel would persist in rebellion. This was no surprise to God nor to His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. God know all along what Israel and the children of Israel would do, so He prepared another program of grace. Yes, God did in fact provide grace to the nation of Israel, but this grace was specifically intermixed with the Law of Moses. Now this new program of God's grace was setup with no intermixing with the Law of Moses. Christ Jesus established this new program with a new apostle for this grace. But God was gracious to Israel to ensure that this new apostle of this grace program would also first come out of the genealogy of Israel, not to insult Israel. But did it surprise Israel? Israel's prophets of old searched the scriptures for what God would do and when He would accomplish it. God's new program was planned before the foundation of the world, but no revelation by God was ever revealed to any of Israel's prophets, not even the greatest of them: Moses. This grace program was “kept secret”, Romans 16:25, and was “hid in God”, Ephesians 3:9, until the appointed time. Today this grace is God's program for all saints, Jew or Gentile.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

Throughout the Gospels of the Lord's earthly ministry, Peter was never revealed this mystery. God did reveal kingdom mystery truths inside many of His parables to teach Israel about kingdom living and kingdom values which He was bringing to this nation. Peter and the twelve Jewish disciples & apostles preached only to the nation of Israel; Jesus the Lord only preached to the nation of Israel. The program of grace and Moses Law that Jesus preached was fully know inside the Old Testament Scriptures: even “God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began”, Acts 3:21. But that which the apostle Paul speaks was “kept secret since the world began”, Romans 16:24. It is also true that the Lord spoke of things “which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world”, but the Lord said that these secrets were revealed “That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet”. Spoken by the prophets! The mystery program that God revealed to Paul was NEVER spoken by the prophets!!! That IS the difference in these two programs of grace.

Matthew 13:34,35 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world

Look at what God reveals to Paul to write in Ephesians:

Ephesians 3:2-5 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you- ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit

This mystery was made know not for the salvation of the Gentiles, Romans 15:12, but for the Body of Christ in which both Gentiles and Jews would have equal standing with God.

To whom was this mystery revealed?

This mystery was revealed to the apostle Paul. He was the ONLY apostle to be taught the mystery which was personally revealed to him by the Lord Jesus Christ. The Gospel of the Kingdom had twelve disciples and apostles, but the revelation of the mystery had only one apostle, whom Christ choose after His resurrection, in like manner as how Jesus choose His twelve Jewish disciples. The choice by the Lord Jesus Christ is clear in multiple scriptures, including Galatians 1, 2, Colossians 1, Ephesians 2, 3, Acts 20:

Galatians 2:7, ".. the gospel of the uncircumcision was COMMITTED UNTO ME .."

Ephesians 3:2, ".. which is given me to you-ward"

Colossians 1:25, ".. which is given to me for you..",

Galatians 1:11,"..the gospel which was preached of me.."

Acts 20:24 "--so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the Gospel of the Grace of God."

Eph.3:7 "Whereof I was made a minister --"

Col.1:23,25 "-- the hope of the gospel which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister --- Whereof I am made a minister --"

The Lord Jesus Christ made a important and unique revelation to Paul regarding His mystery. A very important rule should be seen, which is when Paul writes about RECEIVING this message from Christ he writes in the SINGULAR, and when he writes in the PLURAL, for others labored with him.

Paul's APOSTLESHIP did not come from men nor from the twelve Jewish disciples, on the contrary, God sent His Son the Lord Jesus Christ to reveal it to His chosen apostle of the Gentiles:

Galatians 1:15, 16, " But when it pleased God, who SEPARATED me from my mother's womb, and called me by His grace, to reveal His Son in me, that I might PREACH Him among the heathen".

Galatians 2:8, "For He that wrought effectually in Peter to the Apostleship of the Circumcision, THE SAME was MIGHTY IN ME toward the Gentiles."

Acts 9:15, "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he (Saul-Paul) is a CHOSEN vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel."

Paul was called to be THE Apostle to the Gentiles. He says he was a teacher, an Apostle, a preacher, and a minister to the Gentiles.

Did any of the twelve claim that they had a ministry to the Gentiles?

1 Tim.2:7, "Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an Apostle (I speak the truth in Christ and lie not), a TEACHER of the GENTILES in faith and verity."

2 Tim.1:11, "Whereunto I am appointed a PREACHER, and an Apostle, and a TEACHER of the GENTILES."

Acts 26:16,17 "... to make thee a MINISTER and a witness ... delivering thee from the people and from the GENTILES, unto WHOM now I send thee."

Romans 11:13, "For I speak to you GENTILES, inasmuch as I am The Apostle of the GENTILES, I MAGNIFY mine office."

Romans 15:16, "That I should be the MINISTER of Jesus Christ to the GENTILES..."

These scriptures reveal some amazing truths. The twelve Jewish disciples were to go to the Gentiles AFTER the Nation of Israel had repented (Acts 1:8 with Isaiah 48:20). BUT ISRAEL DID NOT REPENT !! Therefore, the Gentiles are now being saved through their FALL (Israel) (see Romans 11:11,12), and this, by the Gospel of the Grace of God revealed to the Apostle Paul.

Abba Father - The Hope of Glory

These claims of Dispensational Theology sound reasonable until you examine the text of scripture.

All false doctrines are exposed not by the scripture its proponents quote, but by the scripture they must ignore to make the doctrine work.

Here are a few claims that I heard when I was a member of a Dispensational church body.

"The Gentile Church is a "mystery" not revealed in the Old Testament."

To begin with the Church as a whole has never been a Gentile Church. It began on the day of Pentecost. Peter addressed the crowd that day as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel" and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". On that day about 3,000 became a part of the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34. Therefore the effort to replace the Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree with a Church made up only of Gentiles goes out the window. I have had Jewish Christians in my home for Bible study.

Based on what Paul said in Romans 9 it was not a mystery to Hosea that the Church would include Gentiles.

Rom 9:24　 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?　
Rom 9:25　 As He says also in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE, WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, AND HER BELOVED, WHO WAS NOT BELOVED."　
Rom 9:26　 "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."　
Rom 9:27　 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.


I never heard a sermon or Sunday-School lesson on the New Covenant the whole time my wife and I attended that church. Why not?

The New Covenant ties all of scripture together into a book about Christ.

He is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15. He is the seed promised to Abraham in Genesis 12:3, and this is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.

The New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34. It was to replace the Old Covenant the Israelites had broken. We find in Matthew 26:28 at the Last Supper Christ revealed to His Apostles that He would confirm this New Covenant in His Blood. It is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13. We find in verse 13 that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete". In Hebrews 12:18-24 we find this New Covenant applied to the Church.
.........................................
If you look in the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America,　you will find that the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 is the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.
......................................................

Dispensationalists have taken the New Covenant confirmed by Christ and have replaced it with a treaty broken by an antichrist not in Daniel 9, by adding a "gap" of time not mentioned by the angel Gabriel. They ignore any time that the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people during the first century, even though Christ said the Gospel was to be taken "first" to His people.

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

One of the greatest errors of Dispensational Theology is the idea that we are not under any law. This antinomianism has produced tremendous sin within the modern Church. We are not under the Old Covenant law, but we are under the law of Christ.

Joh 15:10　 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.　

1Jn 3:22　 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.　
1Jn 3:23　 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.　
1Jn 3:24　 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.　

We find in Hebrews 13:20 that the New Covenant is "everlasting". God is not going back to the now "obsolete" Sinai covenant during a future time period of 7 years. If God ripped the temple veil in half on the day of the Cross, who is going to repair it.


In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the Blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant, modern Dispensational Theology comes apart.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The churchage of grace itself was something that was not revealed in the OT
1 PETER 1:12
Unto them it was revealed that they ministered, not unto themselves, but unto us the things which are now reported unto you by those who have preached the Gospel unto you, with the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven — things which the angels desire to look into.

 

[BABerean2]

The churchage of grace itself was something that was not revealed in the OT
1 PETER 1:12
Unto them it was revealed that they ministered, not unto themselves, but unto us the things which are now reported unto you by those who have preached the Gospel unto you, with the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven — things which the angels desire to look into.

Gal_3:8　 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."

.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Gal_3:8　 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."

.

The means being revealed NT

 

[BABerean2]

The means being revealed NT

Paul preached Christ to the Jews by using the Old Testament.
The same thing can be done today.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

What does that have to do with your accusation that false doctrine of omittance as to the mystery being revealed in the NT are perpatrated by those that say the mystery is revealed NT

... Using the OT to reveal the NT isn`t possible until after the NT has occurred.
Foundational truths are clearly explained OT but without the further revelation of truth in the New Testament they can't be wholly understood. The meanings of the rituals were hidden from those who lived in Old Testament times.

[/QUOTE]

¸..
All false doctrines are exposed not by the scripture its proponents quote, but by the scripture they must ignore to make the doctrine work.

`....

"The Gentile Church is a "mystery" not revealed in the Old Testament."

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm sure there are some variations but that's basically correct. All of the New Covenant promises are allegory stating that the Church, not the House of Israel and the House of Judah, will be the beneficiaries.

The irony is that, according to that theology, a Jew has to give up his/her covenant relationship with God including all Jewish praxis in order to worship the Jewish Messiah King.

I don't see that at all. Jesus said that He has two sheep pens that He will bring together under one Shepherd. It also says in the New Testament specifically Jews and Gentiles.

What is needed for anyone in the New Covenant is faith the Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God. Now how does that take anything away from Israel?

 

[ToBeLoved]

People. Acts 10 is talking about people, non-Jewish people, not food. Once you read it in that context, it makes perfect sense. The Torah never instructed Jews that Gentiles were unclean, but tradition crept into the mix, especially given that at the time, Israel was occupied by Rome, Jews didn't have a lot of motivation for interacting with Gentiles. Peter's vision was to instruct him that Gentile people are not unclean.

The Ethiopian Eunuch (he might not literally have been castrated) is complex, but I heard one interpretation that he was Jewish (it's a long story).

My opinion is that covenants are additive, not substitutionary. The Sinai and New Covenants are not mutually exclusive but rather complementary. The New Covenant just builds on the Sinai, and in a unique way. In the New Covenant language, there is nothing said about changing or eliminating the 613 mitzvot (commandments). The only thing that changes is where they are written. Previously, they are external, written on tablets and scrolls. Under the emerging New Covenant, they are written on the hearts of the Jewish people.

The nations of the world, by the grace and mercy of God, are allowed to participate somewhat indirectly but as equal beneficiaries. Since Acts 15 makes it clear that non-Jews are not obligated to observe all of the conditions of the Sinai Covenant (and thus do not have to do so under the New Covenant), we're "off the hook," so to speak. However, since those conditions are unchanging, Jews, even believing Jews, remain obligated to the mitzvot, including keeping kosher, observing Shabbat, the whole shooting match.

That's why I make a distinction between Hebrew Christians, those who have converted to the normative Church and behave as Gentile Christians (worshiping on Sunday, eating ham), and Messianic Jews who recognize Jesus as "Rav Yeshua" and maintain a Jewish praxis.

I don't see the two covenants as being an offshoot of each other at all.

God's Word says that the Mosaic law was to teach about what sin is. The Mosaic Law proved no one could keep the law, even the Patriarch's in the Old Testament were imputed righteousness, they did not receive it through keeping the law, by faith.

Obedience and faith and belief are not that alike. Yes for believers they eventually meld together because of our love for God, but faith would not satisfy Mosaic law and Mosaic law would not satisfy faith.

The New Covenant ends the priesthood, ends Mosaic law which Christ fulfilled by keeping it perfectly, no longer has sustitutionary temporary atonement through animal sacrifice, ends many of the food laws and puts all people on equal footing as far as having Christ as their Savior, through faith. Plus as the Gentiles were added, we never were under the law in the first place, so how can it just be a continuation when many of the people were not part of the Old Covenant.

People do not like it being said, but the Old Covenant was always temporary. Before Christ or Messiah, God had told the Israelite's/Hebrews of the New Covenant. It was always to replace the Old Covenant. It is called obsolete and what is obsolete will surely pass away.

We are given the Holy Spirit, God Himself as the seal of the New Covenant and we are justified by the blood of Christ.

The Old Covenant is the schoolmaster leading up to Jesus Christ. Isarael is special to God and no one can take Israel's place, they are God's chosen people and will always be.

I am constantly hearing about the written Torah and the oral Torah. What in the heck is the oral Torah? There is more going on in the Jewish community than just the Old Covenant, a bunch of stuff is added upon it. It is not as cut and dry as many are making it.

 

[BABerean2]

What does that have to do with your accusation that false doctrine of omittance as to the mystery being revealed in the NT are perpatrated by those that say the mystery is revealed NT

... Using the OT to reveal the NT isn`t possible until after the NT has occurred.
Foundational truths are clearly explained OT but without the further revelation of truth in the New Testament they can't be wholly understood. The meanings of the rituals were hidden from those who lived in Old Testament times.

[/QUOTE]

Dealing with those promoting false doctrines is like dealing with some used car salesmen.
A crooked used car salesman often talks about the positive aspects of the car, but attempts to ignore the dents and problems with the car. If he at least acknowledges that a dent exists, he is being honest that there is a problem with the car.

Paul preached Christ to the Jews by using the Old Testament, because the New Testament had not been written during the early years of the Church.

The Messiah is clearly revealed by "the suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of Daniel chapter 9.

When the baby Jesus was brought to the temple, Simeon had been waiting on Him to arrive as the Messiah.

Luk 2:25　 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.　
Luk 2:26　 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.　
Luk 2:27　 So he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law,　
Luk 2:28　 he took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said:　
Luk 2:29　 "Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace, According to Your word;　
Luk 2:30　 For my eyes have seen Your salvation　
Luk 2:31　 Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples,　
Luk 2:32　 A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, And the glory of Your people Israel."　
Luk 2:33　 And Joseph and His mother marveled at those things which were spoken of Him.　

Simeon did not need a New Testament to understand that Jesus was the Messiah.

.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Dealing with those promoting false doctrines is like dealing with some used car salesmen.
A crooked used car salesman often talks about the positive aspects of the car, but attempts to ignore the dents and problems with the car. If he at least acknowledges that a dent exists, he is being honest that there is a problem with the car.

Paul preached Christ to the Jews by using the Old Testament, because the New Testament had not been written during the early years of the Church.

The Messiah is clearly revealed by "the suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of Daniel chapter 9.

When the baby Jesus was brought to the temple, Simeon had been waiting on Him to arrive as the Messiah.

Luk 2:25　 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.　
Luk 2:26　 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.　
Luk 2:27　 So he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law,　
Luk 2:28　 he took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said:　
Luk 2:29　 "Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace, According to Your word;　
Luk 2:30　 For my eyes have seen Your salvation　
Luk 2:31　 Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples,　
Luk 2:32　 A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, And the glory of Your people Israel."　
Luk 2:33　 And Joseph and His mother marveled at those things which were spoken of Him.　

Simeon did not need a New Testament to understand that Jesus was the Messiah.

.

There is a rule about calling someone a lying peddler of false doctrine and I really don't appreciate the accusation.
If you don't have any use for dispensational doctrine then that's your perrogative but to get personal at any poster is really quite underhanded.
Simeon had personal revelation from the Holy Spirit and Anna was a prophetess, so I don't think that's grounds for saying the scripture of the OT was sufficient.
Further conversation with you is fruitless.

 

[BABerean2]

There is a rule about calling someone a lying peddler of false doctrine and I really don't appreciate the accusation.
If you don't have any use for dispensational doctrine then that's your perrogative but to get personal at any poster is really quite underhanded.
Simeon had personal revelation from the Holy Spirit and Anna was a prophetess, so I don't think that's grounds for saying the scripture of the OT was sufficient.
Further conversation with you is fruitless.

No personal attack was intended and I do apologize if your feelings were hurt.

However, when it comes to the doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology I will make no apologies.
Over and over again when Dispensationalists are presented with the facts of how their doctrine does not match the text of scripture, they often act just like the used car salesman. We will see if you act that way when presented with the evidence later in this post.

If you want to believe that Paul did not use the Old Testament to preach the Messiah in the synagogues, go ahead.
However, on the road to Emmaus Christ said that the Old Testament was about Him.

Luk 24:27　 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.　


Christ preached about Himself from the Old Testament.

The following shows how modern Dispensational Theology does not match the text of scripture. Millions of Christians have never seen the fact that Daniel chapter 9 is about the New Covenant. Dispensationalists have taken the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27, which is the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28, and have changed it into a treaty broken by an antichrist not in the chapter, by adding a "gap" of time not mentioned by the angel Gabriel.

Dr. Kelly Varner

.............................................

This is confirmed below by the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

No personal attack was intended and I do apologize if your feelings were hurt.

However, when it comes to the doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology I will make no apologies.
Over and over again when Dispensationalists are presented with the facts of how their doctrine does not match the text of scripture, they often act just like the used car salesman. We will see if you act that way when presented with the evidence later in this post.

If you want to believe that Paul did not use the Old Testament to preach the Messiah in the synagogues, go ahead.
However, on the road to Emmaus Christ said that the Old Testament was about Him.

Luk 24:27　 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.　


Christ preached about Himself from the Old Testament.

The following shows how modern Dispensational Theology does not match the text of scripture. Millions of Christians have never seen the fact that Daniel chapter 9 is about the New Covenant. Dispensationalists have taken the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27, which is the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28, and have changed it into a treaty broken by an antichrist not in the chapter, by adding a "gap" of time not mentioned by the angel Gabriel.

Dr. Kelly Varner

.............................................

This is confirmed below by the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.

I believe your talking about SDA that take 2 different uses of interpretation that sets prophesy off balance in not holding to 1 interpretation in Daniel 7. I have pointed this out to SDAs in the past and they had no argument to stand up to it. Grouping any 'ists' into blanket statements is merely humanistic thoughts that allow one person to think they are oneup on another or group of people which is why I don't adhere to any group because doing so gives people like you what they see as reason to apply other interpretations onto them.
Again what your talking about is SDA interpretation methods. I'm out of this conversation!

 

[Steve Petersen]

There is a rule about calling someone a lying peddler of false doctrine and I really don't appreciate the accusation.
If you don't have any use for dispensational doctrine then that's your perrogative but to get personal at any poster is really quite underhanded.
Simeon had personal revelation from the Holy Spirit and Anna was a prophetess, so I don't think that's grounds for saying the scripture of the OT was sufficient.
Further conversation with you is fruitless.

For some reason, this is getting to be the norm at CF. Everyone is a 'heretic.'

 

[roamer_1]

Let me know what you think. Thanks.

What messed me up for all time was Is 54
Coming right after the death of Messiah in Is 53, the barren woman is instructed to leap for joy...

Who is that Barren Woman?