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They are your words not mine...
The key is that unbelievers who choose eternity without love among others who are loveless are not in for an easy time.
What on earth does that mean and how does it relate to my post which was a simple question about three verses, which you haven't answered btw?
Read post #88
Each one answered.
They are your words not mine...
The key is that unbelievers who choose eternity without love among others who are loveless are not in for an easy time.
Your argument centers around who is interpreting scripture correctly. This is based on the model which is dependent on your free will and your belief in ECT. The early church had various interpretations as well, there has never been a consensus. Each side bases its interpretations on presuppositions.Am I in dialogue with you or Thomas Johnson (whoever he is)
More deflection you said "Christianity is unique in that 'God would never torture or burn those He loves.'" I posted scriptures which showed that God killed millions by drowning, 1000s by fire,100s or 1000s by the sword. The rest is just another unsupported opinion.
“Every knee will bow, in love and adoration to the Lamb of God”.-Phil 2:10
“Every creature will praise and honor God forever!"-Revelation 5:13
'10...that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.' —Doesn't imply that they do so willingly or gladly, but that they will be unable to do otherwise
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!” ' —Notice where the quote marks are, around the thing the creatures say. It does not say they will praise him forever, but that they acknowledge and attribute to him, that those are his forever.
Good thing you found a version (paraphrase) that supported your soteriology!
'10...that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.' —Doesn't imply that they do so willingly or gladly, but that they will be unable to do otherwise.
'13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!” ' —Notice where the quote marks are, around the thing the creatures say. It does not say they will praise him forever, but that they acknowledge and attribute to him, that those are his forever.
That's not what I asked as you well know. I asked what on earth does this mean:
and how does it relate to my question to you?
The way it relates is that I don't attribute evil to a loving God.
That is an unacceptable thing to do...
At the time they see him, post resurrection, mostly likely at the GWT, all bets are off. The operative principles of our temporal passage are no longer in play. The Spirit of God moving within a person is not needed for one to see he was wrong to reject God when God himself is right there in front of them, he whom no man can see and live. The burning power of his purity is enough to make them sag to their knees. But regret and terror is not repentance. I see no mention of their joy and satisfaction and happy worship at being condemned to perdition.And where does it say that?
No-one can proclaim Christ is Lord except through the Holy Spirit so what do you mean that they "are unable to do otherwise"?
And did I? You make no sense to me at all.
If hell is a place of eternal suffering then it can only be regarded as an evil, which means that God did not succeed in his plan to overcome evil. This would be true even if only one person was there.
Your assumption that Hell is evil attributes evil to God.
Still posting the patently false narrative about "aionios kolasis" meaning "temporary correction/pruning?" This false narrative is propagated by folks who know nothing about koine Greek. The root word "kolazo" does mean "prune" but the derived word "kolasis" does not.Hold on, I don't assume that Hell is evil, that is your assumption!
Jesus said "aionios kolasis" ( temporary correction/pruning) so that's the hell I believe in. It's you who believe in a hell of eternal torment. Whether you see that as an evil place or not is up to you but saying I attribute evil to God is yet another nonsensical statement from you. I'm done with this silly conversation.
I didn't claim you did.
Lets get back to a statement you made...
Your assumption that Hell is evil attributes evil to God.
Suffering can come from sin and not be initiated by God.
He clearly spelled out the way of righteousness and it we do not follow it suffering can result - that doesn't make Him evil.
Folks sinfully reject Jesus their whole lives and the consequences of this are clearly spelled out.
He honours the desire of men and this can mean eternal separation from love in the company of the loveless. God does not create this - mans desires are permitted and honoured - this is for them Hell.
I was right there with you, until I thought, why would he distance God from evil in the way he does? Does God need this defense? I don't hear God say, from your last paragraph there, that he "honours" the desire of men. I've heard from many others, such statements, that "God honors our free will so much that....", etc, But I don't hear any of that in the Bible. Where does that come from? God does not claim to relinquish control to anyone. God does claim that he works all things for good, or does all not mean all there? The Bible even says that God intended the evil that Joseph's brothers intended (and committed), for good.He honours the desire of men and this can mean eternal separation from love in the company of the loveless. God does not create this - mans desires are permitted and honoured - this is for them Hell.
God never accepts forced or coerced love. What scripture your shared is testifying to is the defeat of the devil and his diabolical plan to estrange creation from their creator. This celebration that is being displayed is worthy of praise to the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
That is just a bit presumptuous, I think. How is anything God does, including predestining some for 'more common use', not "outwitting the devil"? Imagine the anger and frustration the Devil feels, knowing that the worst he can do only fits perfectly into God's plan.Skepticism is nothing new, the nation of Isreal did not believe that Jesus was Himself God who came to redeem, not only Israel but the Gentile nations as well. I believe Christianity does the same, with the refusal to believe God fully capable of outwitting the devil.
I was right there with you, until I thought, why would he distance God from evil in the way he does? Does God need this defense? I don't hear God say, from your last paragraph there, that he "honours" the desire of men. I've heard from many others, such statements, that "God honors our free will so much that....", etc, But I don't hear any of that in the Bible. Where does that come from? God does not claim to relinquish control to anyone. God does claim that he works all things for good, or does all not mean all there? The Bible even says that God intended the evil that Joseph's brothers intended (and committed), for good.
Still posting the patently false narrative about "aionios kolasis" meaning "temporary correction/pruning?" This false narrative is propagated by folks who know nothing about koine Greek. The root word "kolazo" does mean "prune" but the derived word "kolasis" does not.
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church from its inception, 2000 +/- years ago. Who better than the team of; native Greek speaking scholars, who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Note in Matt 25"46 below the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB, translated "aionios" as "eternal" NOT "age."
EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1. Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.
EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.The Greek word translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 is “kolasis.” Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction,” see above. But according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.” In 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one who has “kolasis” is not made perfect.
Not that I don't, like you, find the notion repulsive that one would force or coerce love, specially if it is said of God. But how in the world do you get that out of anything I've been saying? Would you say that God forced or coerced you to be born the first time? Why, if you had no knowledge of it until it is done, and God made you willing, changing your rebellious nature, would you consider it forced or coerced love?
That is just a bit presumptuous, I think. How is anything God does, including predestining some for 'more common use', not "outwitting the devil"? Imagine the anger and frustration the Devil feels, knowing that the worst he can do only fits perfectly into God's plan.
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