If The Book of Mormon is false then why does the Bible make reference to it?

[pyro457]

If the Book of Mormon is false, as so many claim it to be, then why does the Bible make reference to another book of scripture which can be resonably judged to be The Book of Mormon?
The Scriptures I am talking about are Ezekiel 37:15-17, Isaiah 29:10-14, 18-19, 24, Isaiah 2:2-5, and John 10:16.

In Ezekiel 37:15-17, Ezekiel prophesied about the joining of two "sticks" from different parts of the House Israel, one from the tribe of Judah and one from the tribe of Ephraim (from Joseph). These "sticks" refer to two volumes of scripture. The Hebrew word used in Ezekiel 37 is not the usual word for stick, but is "etz", which means a wooden tablet. Wooden tablets, based on modern archaeological data, were used as a writing tablet on which a layer of wax was coated for writing with a stylus. These tablets appear to have been a major medium of writing in the ancient world, though few survived because wood rots. The tablets were like pages of a book that could be bound together to make a book. Based on the Hebrew and based on what we now know about the use of "etz" as a writing medium, Ezek. 37:15-17 makes sense as a prophecy of two volumes of scripture that would be united in the last days. These volumes are the Bible (from the tribe of Judah) and the Book of Mormon (from the tribe of Joseph, for the founders of the Nephite people who came out of Jerusalem were descendants of Joseph). Now I know there are probally other translations of this verse (there always are) but this one makes a lot of sense and includes historical data to back it up.

Isaiah 29:10-14, 18-19, 24, contains several references to The Book of Mormon.This chapter talks of a time of apostasy when prophecy would cease (v. 10, also v. 13), followed by a revelation containing a "vision of all" that would be in "a book that is sealed." Several details in verses 11 and 12 correlate well with the history of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon (with Prof. Charles Anthon as the learned man and Joseph Smith as the unlearned man). I see the book being involved in the process of restoration, the "marvelous work and a wonder" (vs. 13 and 14), for "the words of the book" would bring truth to the ears and eyes of those who had been deaf and blind (spiritually) (v.18, see also v.24). This book from a lost and destroyed civilization would "whisper out of the dust" (v. 4) to future generations. To me this says that The Book of Mormon and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was known by Isaiah.

In Isaiah 2:2-5 it says that "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it." (v.2)(KJV). These verses say that after a time of apostasy the Church would be restored "in the top fo the mountains", I recently found out that Utah, taken from the Ute indian tribe, means high "place/mountain tops" this fits quite well in with verse 2. almost ironicly well. And Utahs name was not given by LDS members, it was given by non LDS members.

Also in John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." Chist is reffering to "other sheep" that would hear His voice and join Him. And He is not reffering to the gentiles, for they (the gentiles) would not hear from Christ directly but from His servents. For Christ was "sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matt. 15:24

(all of these scriptures were taken from the KJV of the Bible)

 

[happyinhisgrace]

If the Book of Mormon is false, as so many claim it to be, then why does the Bible make reference to another book of scripture which can be resonably judged to be The Book of Mormon?
The Scriptures I am talking about are Ezekiel 37:15-17, Isaiah 29:10-14, 18-19, 24, Isaiah 2:2-5, and John 10:16.

In Ezekiel 37:15-17, Ezekiel prophesied about the joining of two "sticks" from different parts of the House Israel, one from the tribe of Judah and one from the tribe of Ephraim (from Joseph). These "sticks" refer to two volumes of scripture. The Hebrew word used in Ezekiel 37 is not the usual word for stick, but is "etz", which means a wooden tablet. Wooden tablets, based on modern archaeological data, were used as a writing tablet on which a layer of wax was coated for writing with a stylus. These tablets appear to have been a major medium of writing in the ancient world, though few survived because wood rots. The tablets were like pages of a book that could be bound together to make a book. Based on the Hebrew and based on what we now know about the use of "etz" as a writing medium, Ezek. 37:15-17 makes sense as a prophecy of two volumes of scripture that would be united in the last days. These volumes are the Bible (from the tribe of Judah) and the Book of Mormon (from the tribe of Joseph, for the founders of the Nephite people who came out of Jerusalem were descendants of Joseph). Now I know there are probally other translations of this verse (there always are) but this one makes a lot of sense and includes historical data to back it up.

Isaiah 29:10-14, 18-19, 24, contains several references to The Book of Mormon.This chapter talks of a time of apostasy when prophecy would cease (v. 10, also v. 13), followed by a revelation containing a "vision of all" that would be in "a book that is sealed." Several details in verses 11 and 12 correlate well with the history of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon (with Prof. Charles Anthon as the learned man and Joseph Smith as the unlearned man). I see the book being involved in the process of restoration, the "marvelous work and a wonder" (vs. 13 and 14), for "the words of the book" would bring truth to the ears and eyes of those who had been deaf and blind (spiritually) (v.18, see also v.24). This book from a lost and destroyed civilization would "whisper out of the dust" (v. 4) to future generations. To me this says that The Book of Mormon and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was known by Isaiah.

In Isaiah 2:2-5 it says that "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it." (v.2)(KJV). These verses say that after a time of apostasy the Church would be restored "in the top fo the mountains", I recently found out that Utah, taken from the Ute indian tribe, means high "place/mountain tops" this fits quite well in with verse 2. almost ironicly well. And Utahs name was not given by LDS members, it was given by non LDS members.

Also in John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." Chist is reffering to "other sheep" that would hear His voice and join Him. And He is not reffering to the gentiles, for they (the gentiles) would not hear from Christ directly but from His servents. For Christ was "sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matt. 15:24

(all of these scriptures were taken from the KJV of the Bible)

I see you have been paying attention in seminary but the Bible still makes no reference to the BofM.

 

[pyro457]

I see you have been paying attention in seminary but the Bible still makes no reference to the BofM.

And what is youre evidence that the Bible makes no refference to the Book of Mormon?

 

[happyinhisgrace]

And what is youre evidence that the Bible makes no refference to the Book of Mormon?

The Bible it's self and the fact that it makes no reference to the book of Mormon. If you want me to, I will pull out the ol' cut and paste details.

 

[pyro457]

The Bible it's self and the fact that it makes no reference to the book of Mormon. If you want me to, I will pull out the ol' cut and paste details.

If that is what you belive then I will respect it. All I ask is that you respect my views in return as well.

 

[unbound]

Why ,oh why cant churches just TEACH whats in the bible? The answer is right there. No mention of JS , no mention of the BoM.

Now forget what you have been falsely taught, and read these verses. Dont be scared to challenge the teacher in you sunday school. If you dont know more than him, your going to get mislead.



Acts 11:1
And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

Acts 28:28
Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

The above scriptures sure sounds like it is referring to this:

Also in John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Do you REALLY want to know who these "lost sheep " are? Read this and find out:

Acts 15: 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known un
to God are all his works from the beginning of the world.


Luke 2:32
A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

This is the "other stick" you are talking about. Its even in the Old Testament:

Isaiah 42:6
I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Isaiah 54:3
For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

Jeremiah 16:19
O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

The OT and NT is CHOCK FULL of the evidence of the "other sheep" being the Gentiles.Its fulfilled prophecy. Why would you want to introduce external data?

 

[happyinhisgrace]

If that is what you belive then I will respect it. All I ask is that you respect my views in return as well.

I can't respect views that go contrary to the Word of God but I can respect your right to have those views.

Here is a really good article on the "sticks" issue. It is a bit long but a good read. I hope you will have time to read it.

http://www.irr.org/mit/Ezekiel37.html

Does Ezekiel 37 Predict the
Book of Mormon?
Copyright © 2000 Institute for Religious Research
​

According to the Mormon Church, Ezekiel 37:16-17 predicts the coming of the Book of Mormon. These verses read as follows:

Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

The Mormon Church claims that the “sticks” mentioned in this passage refer to scrolls, which in ancient times were wrapped around sticks. They then say that the “stick of Judah” refers to the Bible, and the “stick of Joseph” refers to the Book of Mormon. The two sticks becoming one symbolizes the Bible and Book of Mormon coming together as complimentary scriptures.

A careful examination of this passage reveals serious problems with this interpretation. First of all, in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) the Hebrew word translated “stick” always refers to wood and is never used, even figuratively, to mean a scroll or book. Therefore, nothing in these verses even suggests a book or scroll.

Secondly, the Mormon Church’s interpretation ignores the historical background of Ezekiel’s message. At the time of the prophet Ezekiel (6th century B.C.), the nation of Israel was in turmoil. Since shortly after the time of Solomon, it had been divided into two kingdoms. The ten northern tribes, henceforth called Israel, had earlier been taken captive by the nation of Assyria in 723/722 B.C. Then the two southern tribes (the Kingdom of Judah), were taken into captivity by the Babylonians (606 – 583 B.C.). The dissolution of God’s covenant people was extremely distressing for the remnant of faithful Hebrew believers. It appeared that God’s promises had failed. This is the setting for chapter 37.

So what is Ezekiel’s message to the beleaguered Hebrew believers? In the midst of their despair and pain, Ezekiel gives a two-part message of comfort and hope from God. The first part (verses 1-14) contains the well-known vision of the valley of dry bones. Through that vision, Israel’s God pledges to breathe new life into the dry and scattered nation of Israel and bring the people back into the land. For those who have read this passage it is quite a picture with those dry bones being miraculously brought to life.

Then, in verses 15-22, God promises a future restoration for the whole nation, and announces that some day the northern kingdom, called “Joseph,” and the southern kingdom, called “Judah,” would once again be a united Israel.

It is here we that we find the meaning of the “sticks” that are joined together in Ezekiel 37:15-22. In verse 16 Ezekiel is told to write on one stick “For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions.” This first stick represented the southern kingdom, or Judah. On a second stick, or piece of wood, Ezekiel was to write, “For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions.” This represented the northern kingdom, called Israel.

God then tells Ezekiel, in verse 17, to join the two sticks into one stick and have them become one in Ezekiel's hand. In doing so, God is saying that He will bring back together His divided and decimated people. That this is the meaning of the two sticks and their being joined together is stated very explicitly in verses 21-22.

And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

The prophecy of Ezekiel 37:16-17 has a specific historical context. It is a prediction of the future unity of God’s divided covenant people. The attempt by the Mormon Church to make this passage a prediction regarding the Book of Mormon violates the clear historical, grammatical context of the passage, and is thus a fallacious interpretation of this Biblical passage.

 

[jewishprincess613]

I've read the verses from the Tanakh you gave and cannot see a reference to a Book of Mormon anywhere in there.

 

[A New Dawn]

I can't respect views that go contrary to the Word of God but I can respect your right to have those views.

Here is a really good article on the "sticks" issue. It is a bit long but a good read. I hope you will have time to read it.

http://www.irr.org/mit/Ezekiel37.html

Does Ezekiel 37 Predict the
Book of Mormon?
Copyright © 2000 Institute for Religious Research
​

According to the Mormon Church, Ezekiel 37:16-17 predicts the coming of the Book of Mormon. These verses read as follows:

Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

The Mormon Church claims that the “sticks” mentioned in this passage refer to scrolls, which in ancient times were wrapped around sticks. They then say that the “stick of Judah” refers to the Bible, and the “stick of Joseph” refers to the Book of Mormon. The two sticks becoming one symbolizes the Bible and Book of Mormon coming together as complimentary scriptures.

A careful examination of this passage reveals serious problems with this interpretation. First of all, in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) the Hebrew word translated “stick” always refers to wood and is never used, even figuratively, to mean a scroll or book. Therefore, nothing in these verses even suggests a book or scroll.

Secondly, the Mormon Church’s interpretation ignores the historical background of Ezekiel’s message. At the time of the prophet Ezekiel (6th century B.C.), the nation of Israel was in turmoil. Since shortly after the time of Solomon, it had been divided into two kingdoms. The ten northern tribes, henceforth called Israel, had earlier been taken captive by the nation of Assyria in 723/722 B.C. Then the two southern tribes (the Kingdom of Judah), were taken into captivity by the Babylonians (606 – 583 B.C.). The dissolution of God’s covenant people was extremely distressing for the remnant of faithful Hebrew believers. It appeared that God’s promises had failed. This is the setting for chapter 37.

So what is Ezekiel’s message to the beleaguered Hebrew believers? In the midst of their despair and pain, Ezekiel gives a two-part message of comfort and hope from God. The first part (verses 1-14) contains the well-known vision of the valley of dry bones. Through that vision, Israel’s God pledges to breathe new life into the dry and scattered nation of Israel and bring the people back into the land. For those who have read this passage it is quite a picture with those dry bones being miraculously brought to life.

Then, in verses 15-22, God promises a future restoration for the whole nation, and announces that some day the northern kingdom, called “Joseph,” and the southern kingdom, called “Judah,” would once again be a united Israel.

It is here we that we find the meaning of the “sticks” that are joined together in Ezekiel 37:15-22. In verse 16 Ezekiel is told to write on one stick “For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions.” This first stick represented the southern kingdom, or Judah. On a second stick, or piece of wood, Ezekiel was to write, “For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions.” This represented the northern kingdom, called Israel.

God then tells Ezekiel, in verse 17, to join the two sticks into one stick and have them become one in Ezekiel's hand. In doing so, God is saying that He will bring back together His divided and decimated people. That this is the meaning of the two sticks and their being joined together is stated very explicitly in verses 21-22.

And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

The prophecy of Ezekiel 37:16-17 has a specific historical context. It is a prediction of the future unity of God’s divided covenant people. The attempt by the Mormon Church to make this passage a prediction regarding the Book of Mormon violates the clear historical, grammatical context of the passage, and is thus a fallacious interpretation of this Biblical passage.

The fact that whoever wrote this article sees a problem is a problem in that he does not understand the purpose of the BoM nor the restoration.

The purpose of the BoM and the restoration is the uniting of Judah/Israel (all of Israel).

From the introduction of the BoM (part of the BoM, written by Mormon (not Joseph Smith.))

An account written by the hand of Mormon upon plates
taken from the plates of Nephi.

1 Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record
of the people of Nephi,
And also of the Lamanites.

2 Written to the Lamanites which are a remnant
of the house of Israel,
And also to Jew and Gentile.

3 Written by way of commandment,
And also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation.

4 Written and sealed up and hid up unto the Lord,
that they might not be destroyed,
To come forth by the fgift and power of God,
unto the interpretation thereof;
Sealed by the hand of Moroni and hid up unto the Lord,
To come forth in due time by the way of Gentile,
the interpretation thereof by the gift of God-

5 An abridgment taken from the book of Ether also,
which is a record of the people of Jared,
Which were scattered at the time the Lord confounded
the language of the people when they were
building a tower to get to heaven-

6 Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel
how great things the Lord hath done for their fathers,
And that they may know the covenants of the Lord,
that they are not cast off forever.

7 And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile
that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God,
manifesting Himself unto all nations.

8 And now if there be fault, it be the mistake of men;
Wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may
be found spotless at the judgment seat of Christ.

Moroni

 

[Romans5:1]

If the Book of Mormon is false, as so many claim it to be, then why does the Bible make reference to another book of scripture which can be resonably judged to be The Book of Mormon?

I have a better question. If the Bible is 100% true, and sufficient for all matters pertaining to Christian faith and practice, then why would any Christian need to refer to anything Mormon, given that Mormonism contradicts Christian doctrine 100% of the time?

 

[A New Dawn]

I have a better question. If the Bible is 100% true, and sufficient for all matters pertaining to Christian faith and practice, then why would any Christian need to refer to anything Mormon, given that Mormonism contradicts Christian doctrine 100% of the time?

There is that problem again.

Just because Mormonism (LDSism) contradicts "Christianity" doesn't mean the Book of Mormon does. Y'all have to stop insinuating that. The BoM totally supports Christianity.

 

[Romans5:1]

There is that problem again.

Just because Mormonism (LDSism) contradicts "Christianity" doesn't mean the Book of Mormon does. Y'all have to stop insinuating that. The BoM totally supports Christianity.

Nice try, but you still didn't answer the question. So, here's another one: why didn't you answer it?

 

[A New Dawn]

Nice try, but you still didn't answer the question. So, here's another one: why didn't you answer it?

Because I am not Mormon?

Because the topic of the thread is BoM/Bible contact points?

 

[happyinhisgrace]

There is that problem again.

Just because Mormonism (LDSism) contradicts "Christianity" doesn't mean the Book of Mormon does. Y'all have to stop insinuating that. The BoM totally supports Christianity.

Off the top of my head, I can think of one BofM teaching that DOES contradict Christianity. It is the passage that says,
"Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy" (2 Nephi 2:22-25).

The Bible says were created for God's glory, not so that we might have joy. The Bible also says that it was a sin for Adam to disobey God and eat of the fruit but the BofM passage states it as if it was a good thing for Adam to "fall" and as if God set him up to fall and even commanded it.

 

[A New Dawn]

Off the top of my head, I can think of one BofM teaching that DOES contradict Christianity. It is the passage that says,
"Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy" (2 Nephi 2:22-25).

The Bible says were created for God's glory, not so that we might have joy. The Bible also says that it was a sin for Adam to disobey God and eat of the fruit but the BofM passage states it as if it was a good thing for Adam to "fall" and as if God set him up to fall and even commanded it.

Maybe if you understood that verse you would understand that our "joy" is to give glory to God. If man hadn't fallen, we would not be able to do that.

And how could God save us if we didn't fall????

 

[Rescued One]

I honestly don't believe God would use a false prophet to present additional scripture. Joseph Smith was a false prophet.

 

[Serapha]

The Hebrew word used in Ezekiel 37 is not the usual word for stick, but is "etz", which means a wooden tablet. Wooden tablets, based on modern archaeological data, were used as a writing tablet on which a layer of wax was coated for writing with a stylus. These tablets appear to have been a major medium of writing in the ancient world, though few survived because wood rots. The tablets were like pages of a book that could be bound together to make a book.

Hi there!




Source please on the use of wooden tablets with a wax coating which were bound together to make a book.


~serapha~

 

[Der Alte]

If the Book of Mormon is false, as so many claim it to be, then why does the Bible make reference to another book of scripture which can be resonably judged to be The Book of Mormon?
The Scriptures I am talking about are Ezekiel 37:15-17, Isaiah 29:10-14, 18-19, 24, Isaiah 2:2-5, and John 10:16.

In Ezekiel 37:15-17, Ezekiel prophesied about the joining of two "sticks" from different parts of the House Israel, one from the tribe of Judah and one from the tribe of Ephraim (from Joseph). These "sticks" refer to two volumes of scripture. The Hebrew word used in Ezekiel 37 is not the usual word for stick, but is "etz", which means a wooden tablet.

The problem with this little narrative is it is totally false. Etz/עץ does not mean a wooden tablet. Here is the definition from Brown-Driver-Briggs, the most widely used O.T. Hebrew lexicon in the world. Other than this one verse is there a single reference in the O.T. for עץ/etz being used for written communication? There is no occurrence where עץ means book or scripture and certainly no occurrence where book or scripture means wood or stick.

H6086 עץ ‛ets
BDB Definition:
1) tree, wood, timber, stock, plank, stalk, stick, gallows
1a) tree, trees
1b) wood, pieces of wood, gallows, firewood, cedar-wood, woody flax
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H6095
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1670a​

​

Wooden tablets, based on modern archaeological data, were used as a writing tablet on which a layer of wax was coated for writing with a stylus. These tablets appear to have been a major medium of writing in the ancient world, though few survived because wood rots.

Please show some archaeological evidence that the ancient Israelites, ca. 700 b.c., used waxed wooden tablets for writing? The major means of writing in the ancient world was clay tablets, parchment, and papyrus, not waxed wooden tablets.

And even if such evidence could be produced it would not be called simply עץ.

 

[Serapha]

Based on the Hebrew and based on what we now know about the use of "etz" as a writing medium, Ezek. 37:15-17 makes sense as a prophecy of two volumes of scripture that would be united in the last days. These volumes are the Bible (from the tribe of Judah) and the Book of Mormon (from the tribe of Joseph, for the founders of the Nephite people who came out of Jerusalem were descendants of Joseph). Now I know there are probally other translations of this verse (there always are) but this one makes a lot of sense and includes historical data to back it up.

Hi there!



And source please on the "historical data to back it up".


~serapha~

 

[Serapha]

Please show some archaeological evidence that the ancient Israelites, ca. 700 b.c., used waxed wooden tablets for writing? The major means of writing in the ancient world was clay tablets, parchment, and papyrus, not waxed wooden tablets.

Hello Der Alter,


The boards were actually wooden "trays" that held wax, but they were used primarily on a temporary basis... recording tax receipts or store receipts for the month, and then being transferred to a more permanent form of written record. The wax forms were also used for temporary court recording until they could be record and for land transfers, etc.


But, as we all know, the heat in Israel would melt the wax, therefore, it could only be a temporary form of written record.. and certainly, it would never be in a bound form as a permanent type of record.


~serapha~