If the Bible never existed...

[CrystalDragon]

Time and time again, I see people point to things as being true and good or bad "just because the Bible says so".

But what if there was no Bible? If we had no way of knowing about Moses, or Noah, or the 10 Commandments, or the violent commanded stuff, or Jesus?

What would your sense of life be like? Would you believe in anything? Would you be a follower of another religion? Would you be atheist or agnostic? Do you think the world would be better off without it due to Christians not persecuting others because of the Bible, or do you think it would be pretty much the same but maybe with other religions doing such instead?

 

[thecolorsblend]

Your question seems to assume that without Sacred Scripture, the Church could not exist and therefore Christianity could not exist.

I find this to be a very puzzling premise coming as it does from a self-professed Catholic.

 

[eartheart]

I believe it would happen regardless of where, when and why.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Your question seems to assume that without Sacred Scripture, the Church could not exist and therefore Christianity could not exist.

I find this to be a very puzzling premise coming as it does from a self-professed Catholic.

Well a lot of what we know about Jesus comes from the Sacred Scripture in the first place—can you think of anything outside Scripture that describes Jesus performing miracles and delivering his message to the world? If there are, be my guest, feel free to post them, I'll be happy about it. It seems though that most of our knowledge of Jesus's life comes from the Scriptures.

 

[CrystalDragon]

I believe it would happen regardless of where, when and why.

How would it happen? Would maybe the words attributed to Jesus have come about through other ways?

 

[thecolorsblend]

Well a lot of what we know about Jesus comes from the Sacred Scripture in the first place—can you think of anything outside Scripture that describes Jesus performing miracles and delivering his message to the world? If there are, be my guest, feel free to post them, I'll be happy about it. It seems though that most of our knowledge of Jesus's life comes from the Scriptures.

I believe in the Church's teaching authority. This teaching authority is enshrined in Sacred Scripture but does not originate from Sacred Scripture. It originates from Our Lord's teachings. The Church can carry out her mission effectively with or without Sacred Scripture.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Well a lot of what we know about Jesus comes from the Sacred Scripture in the first place—can you think of anything outside Scripture that describes Jesus performing miracles and delivering his message to the world? If there are, be my guest, feel free to post them, I'll be happy about it. It seems though that most of our knowledge of Jesus's life comes from the Scriptures.

What about icons depicting those miracles? There have been times when there was no assembled canon, when the common people couldn't afford Scriptures (they weren't always mass-produced), or they might not be able to read.

Christianity was still taught.

 

[CrystalDragon]

I believe in the Church's teaching authority. This teaching authority is enshrined in Sacred Scripture but does not originate from Sacred Scripture. It originates from Our Lord's teachings. The Church can carry out her mission effectively with or without Sacred Scripture.

So even though it took centuries for Sacred Scripture to be properly established, the priests were somehow still able to know God's word in some way, or would be able to?

What about icons depicting those miracles? There have been times when there was no assembled canon, when the common people couldn't afford Scriptures (they weren't always mass-produced), or they might not be able to read.

Christianity was still taught.

Haven't heard about icons related to that before, any examples? I'm curious now. And we're any of those icons based around things that where's read from the Bible's Scripture?

 

[thecolorsblend]

So even though it took centuries for Sacred Scripture to be properly established, the priests were somehow still able to know God's word in some way, or would be able to?

I'm asking this from genuine curiosity (eg, not as an insult or attack). So, with all due respect, do you not understand the concept of the oral tradition and the Magisterium?

 

[CrystalDragon]

I'm asking this from genuine curiosity (eg, not as an insult or attack). So, with all due respect, do you not understand the concept of the oral tradition and the Magisterium?

I understand it, I'm just not certain if the oral tradition and Magisterium came about from reading and interpreting the words of Scripture.

 

[eartheart]

How would it happen? Would maybe the words attributed to Jesus have come about through other ways?

No but in the same eventually.
A word is a very powerful thing, but love that is not of the heart but of God is hidden beyond words only because it is more than words.

 

[~Anastasia~]

So even though it took centuries for Sacred Scripture to be properly established, the priests were somehow still able to know God's word in some way, or would be able to?

The Church was founded by the Apostles. They knew Jesus, they heard Him, saw Him, learned from Him, lived with Him. When they established new Churches, they spent time teaching persons there, explaining everything, and then later wrote letters to correct or further explain. That's what the Epistles are, though they were not the only ones written.

A person wouldn't be made a Presbyter (priest) without being taught these things.

Haven't heard about icons related to that before, any examples? I'm curious now. And we're any of those icons based around things that where's read from the Bible's Scripture?

Virtually everything is depicted in icons - I think you mentioned Christ's miracles? Last week we went over the healing of the ten lepers at Bible study, and Father showed us three different icons, with some slight variations in emphasis. There are dozens of icons of each of the miracles of Christ, and much, much, MUCH more.

Of course, we don't have surviving icons from the days of the Apostles, just as we don't have surviving manuscripts from back then. But there are icons from not much later - one of the oldest we have found depicts The Good Shepherd. (And seeing as how icons were also found in older Jewish temples, it should be an easy acceptance that they existed in early Christendom).

I used to wonder how Peter recognized Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration. But when I saw an icon of St. Paul from the very early Church, and easily "recognized" him from the icons being made today, and also learned that Jewish temples were richly covered with iconography depicting OT Biblicsl scenes, among other things - I could guess one possible answer to my question.

By the way, I'm not putting icons over words. As useful as they can be, I think more importantly, priests would have been TAUGHT by the Apostles, and so would know what Christ said. The Scriptures even say as much - they talk about the truths delivered "by word and epistle".

 

[chevyontheriver]

I understand it, I'm just not certain if the oral tradition and Magisterium came about from reading and interpreting the words of Scripture.

Well, for the NT the oral tradition was first. The gospels were oral for several years before they were written down.

Jesus never wrote a thing, except for a tiny bit written in the sand.

Christianity without a Bible would be interesting, but I suspect it would look very Catholic and very Orthodox and have the same creeds. How could Protestants handle it though?

 

[~Anastasia~]

You asked for examples. Here is an icon of the healing of the ten lepers. You can see only one giving thanks, and there are many points of the teaching that can be brought from most icons.

As I said, most everything has been depicted. I bet you can guess what each of the following is showing, and can probably read some of the particulars from it. The ones entrusted to teach would have even more points they would know to talk about from each one.

 

[EatingPie]

I believe in the Church's teaching authority. This teaching authority is enshrined in Sacred Scripture but does not originate from Sacred Scripture.

Can you explain this a bit more? I know you say the following:

It originates from Our Lord's teachings. The Church can carry out her mission effectively with or without Sacred Scripture.

But Christ's teachings are recorded in the Bible, from eyewitness accounts. Thus the Gospel of the Church does indeed originate from Scripture.

-Pie

 

[EatingPie]

In answer to the OP, I believe the context of Christ's teaching would be lost without written scripture. How would we know The Law? Or the Prophets? Or that Jesus himself fulfilled prophecy (an imperitive credential)? Or what he meant when he said that he came to fulfil both the Law and the Prophets?

Most importantly, how would we know why we need a savior, unable to approach God on our own merits?

And then there's our general spiritual forgetfulness.

Joseph saved Egypt from famine, and in the process made the Pharoah incredibly wealthy. But eventually there came a time when a new Pharoah knew not of Joseph... leading to the enslavement of the Israelites. Other examples, such as the Judges Cycle, and the constant procession of Kings who did evil in the eyes of the Lord.

And, lastly, the Bible is a form of evidence for the existence of God and Jesus. We'd have a lot less (no?) ground to stand on without such evidence.

-Pie

 

[thecolorsblend]

But Christ's teachings are recorded in the Bible, from eyewitness accounts. Thus the Gospel of the Church does indeed originate from Scripture.

Our Lord founded the Church. The Church's teaching authority is derived from His commands and instructions. Sacred Scripture records that He gave the Church teaching authority, which is nice. But the Church nevertheless would possess that authority whether or not the Church wrote the New Testament.

The Church can exist (and indeed has existed) without the New Testament. The New Testament, however, could not have been created without the Church.

In answer to the OP, I believe the context of Christ's teaching would be lost without written scripture.

If I parse this out piece by piece, I'm afraid I have to disagree. The context in which Our Lord conducted His ministry (the politics, the economics, the social norms, etc) are not recorded in the scriptures in full. It requires a bit of study to understand, for example, how taboo some of His words and actions were in His day. The scriptures do not provide those things for us.

How would we know The Law? Or the Prophets?

How did the ancient Israelites know those things? Their literacy rates were (supposedly) relatively higher than, say, the Greeks or the Romans but they could hardly claim universal literacy even at their peak. Yes, they had written scriptures but not everyone could agree back then on what was canonical and what wasn't. But they did have a strong oral tradition and teaching authority to ensure compliance on the Law.

Most importantly, how would we know why we need a savior, unable to approach God on our own merits?

Your thesis, then, is that only the scriptures tell us that? Here again I'm afraid I must disagree. A casual glance at any prison will indicate that men aren't angels. The worst of us (eg, prisoners) are very bad indeed. Evidence of our tainted nature is all around us.

And, lastly, the Bible is a form of evidence for the existence of God and Jesus. We'd have a lot less (no?) ground to stand on without such evidence.

Nobody is arguing that Christianity wouldn't be a different religion without ever having had access to the scriptures. But I am of the opinion that the Church's teaching authority is ultimately sufficient to propagate the faith and nourish the faithful, if only because it demonstrably has been sufficient at various points in history.

 

[Winken]

Time and time again, I see people point to things as being true and good or bad "just because the Bible says so".

But what if there was no Bible? If we had no way of knowing about Moses, or Noah, or the 10 Commandments, or the violent commanded stuff, or Jesus?

What would your sense of life be like? Would you believe in anything? Would you be a follower of another religion? Would you be atheist or agnostic? Do you think the world would be better off without it due to Christians not persecuting others because of the Bible, or do you think it would be pretty much the same but maybe with other religions doing such instead?

Controversial Christian Theology? Hello? What is the purpose of hypothetical presentations, such as this "what if" thread? They have no purpose. Case closed.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Controversial Christian Theology? Hello? What is the purpose of hypothetical presentations, such as this "what if" thread? They have no purpose. Case closed.

I rather enjoy the thought experiment and it seems that others find it intriguing as well.