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If the beginnings of Genesis aren't literally true, then what way are they true?

Discussion in 'Physical & Life Sciences' started by Neogaia777, Jun 3, 2015.

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  1. HitchSlap

    HitchSlap Burn the torch!

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    Reality can be cold. Best to accept evidence as we find it, though.
     
  2. Davian

    Davian fallible

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    This guy?

    "Did You Know that many of the planets in our solar system should not exist if the evolutionary explanation is true?! Yet there they are!"

     
  3. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    It presents a thesis statement and then expands the statement in a way and language that could be grasped by the people it was meant to be communicated to. It was not meant to be a scientific exposition but an explanation of a process in stages moving from different levels of disorder/darkness to higher and higher levels of order/light. He is telling them/us the stuff of the Universe is sound wave (and God said) and a type of photonic or radio magnetic energy (the first Light of the almost instantaneous becoming we call the Big Bang moment...calculated hypothetically by scientists to be about a 10th of a second). We see the reflection of this initial light everywhere in the Universe we can perceive, at 3 degree Kelvin). From this He brought forth mass in a chaotic state.

    Out of this formless chaos of mass/energy He formed the planets and initial stars....the special one this explanation focuses on is earth. He speaks of cycles in creation or movements from evening (dark and less defined and clear) to morning (times light being levels and/or stages of development)....first planets and stars (one of which is our Sun) and from amist the watery planet earth He divides the waters (gases) above from the waters (liguids) below.

    Out of these He causes the denser materiality to emerge forming land masses (about 2 thirds of the earths original water being below the crust). First He creates creatures and plants in the seas, and then commands (and it is done) the seas to bring forth creatures after its kind (perhaps by an evolutionary process), He then creates the first orders of non-sea creatures (including birds and insects) and commands the earth to bring forth creatures after its kind (kind being translated by the early Rabbis of the LXX into Greek as its closest equivalent which is the term from which we get the idea of "species").

    Then He creates humankind (the male first), and then a 2nd set of land creatures with nephesh or soul life like humans (they show affection and can think to a very limited degree showing distinct preference and more than just instinct only without ruach or spirit), and then makes the human female....why? Who cares that is not what is important the sequence of development is exactly what science knows or will find out eventually).

    And then He shaw-bath's (ceases and desists..not shabbat though of the same cognate roots) from His wok of creation for a period. These seven stages of cycles of development constituting one greater cycle foreshadowing what we call weeks and then later in Genesis through Exodus implements greater cycles comprised of those cycles (Universal, earthly/temporal, social, and physiological in nature) and all continues.

    The word "Yom" being translated "day" being used in any number of ways including epochs of time
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2015
  4. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    Now as for the word “yom” translated “day” in Genesis 1. It is written that a day unto the Lord “is as” 1,000 years unto man (which means it seems like forever). It has been rightly pointed out that 1,000 is often used symbolically in the Bible as an uncountable number. To humankind at that time, this is what the term represented. Ancient Hebrew did not fathom in terms beyond this. This is why the Scriptures do not mention millions or billions only 1,000s of 1,000s, 100s of 1,000s, 10,000 x 10,000, etc.!

    This led SOME early Rabbis and early Church fathers to reckon the first six days as 6,000 years not six 24 hour days, but in fact it could have been much longer (see “the Age of the Universe” by Schroeder). So when we read God is the owner of the cattle of 1,000 hills it represents all cattle not literally 1,000 hills worth.

    Scholar Greg Neyman in his Word Study:Yom points out that this word is defined as

    The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (1980, Moody Press)

    "It can denote: 1. the period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness), 2. the period of twenty-four hours, 3. a general vague "time," 4. a point of time, 5. a year (in the plural; I Sam 27:7; Ex 13:10, etc.)."

    Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible (symbols omitted)

    from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), [often used adv.]:--age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, end, evening, (for)ever(lasting), ever(more), full, life, as long as (...live), even now, old, outlived, perpetually, presently, remaining, required, season, since, space, then, (process of) time, as at other times, in trouble, weather (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), whole age, (full) year (-ly), younger

    As you can see, Hebrew dictionaries attest to the fact that the word Yom (day) is used for anywhere from 12 hours up to a year, and even a vague "time period" of unspecified length.”

    (note the use of the word years in Genesis where it is said Adam or Noah lived 900 plus years…the Hebrew word ”shaneh” used in these passages actually just means any division or measure of time as an indication of age, and can be used to indicate complete solar years, but could mean seasons, or even full moons…think about this if Adam lived to be 900 plus.

    As for “yom”, in Genesis 1:5 it is a period of light. Genesis 1:14 it is more than one day. In Genesis 2:4 Yom is the entire creation period. Genesis 4:3, it says "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord." Yom = a complete process of time. In Genesis 18:11; and 21:2,7 it means old age (see Genesis 47). Genesis 40:4, "...and they continued a season inward." Here it is a non-defined season.

    Milton S. Terry, Biblical Hermeneutics: A Treatise on the Interpretation of the Old and New

    Testaments (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan [1883] 1909), 390. says:

    As we have found the number ten to symbolize the general idea of fullness, totality, completeness, so not improbably the number one thousand may stand as the symbolic number of manifold fullness, the rounded aeon of Messianic triumph. . . , during which he shall abolish all rule and all authority and power, and put all his enemies under his feet (1 Cor. xv, 24, 25), and bring in the fullness . . . of both Jews and Gentiles (Rom. xi, 12, 25).3

    John J. Davis, who taught Hebrew at Grace Theological Seminary, comments “Here are some examples where “thousand” is used in a literal way: Genesis 20:16; Numbers 31:4–6; 35:4; Judges 9:49; 15:5–16; 1 Samuel 4:2; 18:13; 2 Samuel 19:17; 2 Kings 15:19; 24:16; Nehemiah 3:13...but…

    “Sometimes the number 1000 is employed to describe an indefinite amount as in Deuteronomy 1:11 and 7:9.”

    “May the LORD, the God of your fathers, increase you a thousand-fold more than you are, and bless you, just as He promised you!” (Deut. 1:11).

    “For every beast of the forest is Mine, the cattle on a thousand hills” (Psalm 50:10)

    “Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments” (Deut. 7:9).


    Scholar Gary Demar sees this as possibly causing a dilemma when he points out “What should we make of the phrase “a thousand-fold”? Notice the comparison to the stars of heaven in Deuteronomy 1:10 (cf. Gen. 15:5): “You are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.” Now if the number of Israelites was at that time comparable to the number of stars in heaven, of which there are billions, and God promised to multiply that number by a thousand, the literalist has some serious interpretive problems on his hands.”

    And finally as William Plumer in Psalms: A Critical and Expository Commentary with Doctrine and

    Practical Remarks (Carlisle, PA: Banner of Truth Trust, [1867] 1975), 932. He points out a thousand in the Bible can be “A large definite number is put for pertuity. God’s faithfulness is unto all generations, Ps. cxix.90.” Psalm 119:90 reads: “Thy faithfulness continues to all generations. . . .” So which is it, “to all generations” or to “a thousand generations”? Once again, “thousand” represents more than a literal interpretation of the number.”


    So the use of the concept of a thousand or thousands in the thinking and language of the Hebrews who the Spirit breathed through to write the scriptures apply the concept in a few different ways, One as literal, one as hyperbole, and another to represent any uncountable number. Their language also posed certain limitations…they had no word for million or billion and that is why we only see them speak in terms of thousands of thousands or by Hebraisms like 10,000 x 10,000 and so on.


    Than finally the word “day” is also the same…Moses Himself in the book of Genesis uses “yom” as a literal day, the daylight portion of a day, a generation, 40 plus years, and even as “always” and “forever”.


    The uses by this same author in this same book range all the way to forever. Moses uses the word in all these varied ways all throughout the Torah so as for use and etymology it could mean a part of a day, a literal 24 hour period, 1,000 years of any segment therein or beyond. One argument that is worth considering however our understanding that a day can only mean (not you) 24 literal hours is brought into question in that this definition is dependent on a created earth which makes one rotation in relation to a created sun…yet these did not exist until after day three…

    Greg Neyman goes on to tell us, Moses, the author of the first five books of the Bible, and of Psalm 90, used Yom in many different ways.

    Genesis 4:3 "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord." In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months.

    Genesis 43:9 "...then let me bear the blame for ever." Here, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity

    Genesis 44:32 "...then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever." Again, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity

    Deuteronomy 4:40 "...that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth the, for ever." Here Yom represents a physical lifetime

    Deuteronomy 10:10, "Now I stayed on the mountain forty days and nights, as I did the first time,..." Here, Yom is a "time" equal to forty days.

    Deuteronomy 18:5 "...to stand to minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for ever." Again, Yom is translated as eternity

    Deuteronomy 19:9 "...to love the Lord thy God, and to walk ever in His ways..." Here, Yom represents a lifetime. As long as we live we are to walk in his ways

    As you can see, Moses used the word Yom to represent 12-hours, 24 hours, the creative week, forty days, several months, a lifetime, and eternity.

    Now consider how can there be a counting of days as a literal 24 hour cycle before there was a Sun and rotating earth since 24 hours is a construct relative ONLY to that cosmic relationship? Who then can KNOW days 1 through three were a literal 24 hour cycle? But these ancient people had to be able to relate to the concepts in a form they could grasp. This is why the Prophets (and Jesus) speak in terms of Vineyards, Shepherding, Fishing, etc.)

    Paul
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2015
  5. Merlin

    Merlin Paradigm Buster

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    Ok, so show any modern example of life adding chromosomes.
    Next show that new life mating with the previous life form now that there is a difference in chromosome count such that the new life continues with the newer additional chromosome
     
  6. Merlin

    Merlin Paradigm Buster

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    From the time of the flood until Moses there were many civilizations to write down their history about the flood.
     
  7. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

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    Do you trust the Creation and the evidence found in it?
     
  8. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

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    What do you mean "their" history? Wasn't Noah and family the only ones to experience the flood and live to tell about it?
     
  9. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    Allegorists usually consider Genesis 1-11 to be an allegory.

    Starting with the call of Abraham in Genesis 12 is where they believe the Bible to start being literal.

    Adam & Noah are easy to dismiss ... Abraham isn't.
     
  10. Xalith

    Xalith Newbie

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    So basically, if you dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the Fall of Man, then what are your views as to the origins of Sin and the Curse of Death?

    And if you think it is easy to dismiss Noah, then what are your views on the astounding evidence of a major change of the surface of the Earth that happened during the Flood? Why are there frozen mastodon remains with tropical food in their stomachs in the middle of the Himalayas (IIRC it was the Himalayas those were found in)? Why are there tropical seashell fossils in the mountains near California?

    The Earth was very obviously re-arranged (just look at the shape of the continents, you can tell they were split apart). Athiests will tell you that this happened over millenia, the Bible says it happened during the Flood (or, well, implies it), but either way, there's the Ark itself.

    I don't recall who exactly, but didn't someone find metal remains in the Ararat mountains, rivets and such that resembled the shape of a ship about the right size the ark would have been?
     
  11. crjmurray

    crjmurray The Bear. Not The Bull.

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    Yeah AV! What about the tropical mastodons!?!?!?!
     
  12. Kirsten

    Kirsten Active Member

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    They are.
     
  13. HitchSlap

    HitchSlap Burn the torch!

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    There is no "Sin," only consequences, and all living things die.

    Of course it's easy to dismiss Noah, as there is zero evidence of him being a real person, and every evidence to suggest he is myth.

    Plate tectonics is actually well studied and understood.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_tectonics

    Nothing, there was no global flood.
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mammoths.html

    Millions of years ago, mountain tops used to be seafloors.

    Yep. See the link above.
    Actually, it's geologists, structural geologist, geo dynamicists, vulcanologists, seismologists and other relevant earth and physical scientists who will tell you this happened over millenia.
    This is just one of many things the bible gets wrong.
    What ark?
    Nope.
     
  14. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's neither an allegory nor is it a modern literal understanding, Genesis is something that was written for ancient Hebrews that lived thousands of years ago. They were neither thinking in modern scientific terms nor as our culture today thinks of Genesis literally.

    From the little I understand, Genesis does two things for nation of Israel. It reveals to them that their God is supreme plus it allows for a base line (an understanding) about how to measure the passage of time/life. As an agrarian culture it was very important to understand the yearly cycle, its' days, weeks bundled up in months; when to plant and harvest crops and sustain their community. As numerous other ancient civilizations support, those people may lack the amount of knowledge we have today, however they were no less intelligent. Consider the accuracy of the Mayan calendar or Antikythera mechanism.

    I believe the problem is about the question, is Genesis literally true? I believe it can not be fully explained using todays literal or allegorical methods, never even mind science. It would take a truthful observation about how the actual mind of those intelligent ancient people thought and not just how we today may think they thought.
     
  15. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    I was stating their pov, not mine.

    I believe in a literal six-day creation and a literal global flood.
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

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    You can believe whatever you want to believe. People can believe that we did not go to the Moon if they want to. People can believe that the government really was behind 911, that Chemtrails are real, or that the holocaust did not happen. Teaching these false beliefs in schools of course should not be permitted. Creationists try to cry foul when we demand that they follow the scientific method, but that is how real science is done.

    If you want creationism taught you will first have to show reasonable evidence for it. So far they don't have one lick of scientific evidence that supports their position.
     
  17. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    And that's the strength of creationism, not its weakness.
     
  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

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    Only in Bizarro World.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Xalith

    Xalith Newbie

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    Gotta love the people who come to the Christian Forums to vehemently argue against the Christian views, faiths, and religious materials, lol.

    I could never understand that.

    That'd be like me going over to the Islam forums and preaching about how Allah = Satan.

    No offense meant, but eh. I don't understand the thought processes behind it.
     
  20. HitchSlap

    HitchSlap Burn the torch!

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    Bruce Lee??
     
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