If the beginnings of Genesis aren't literally true, then what way are they true?

Chriliman · Jun 15, 2015

paulm50 said:
That's why science admits there is something new to learn every day, why it's being added to, and why the bible stopped at what men knew 1,000s of years ago.

As you said. "The term "absolute truth" means a truth that is unchangeable or unalterable, it is the single truth that explains everything." Science is continually learning, not bound by lines of text.

Okay then here is where science is stumped. If it's absolutely true that the universe was once a singularity how then can it be absolutely true that it is no longer a singularity? If it was absolutely, unchangeably true that it was a singularity how was this unchangeable truth changed into it no longer being an unchangeable singularity? Well the obvious logical answer is that a force outside the universe acted and thus we have the universe as we see it today. Give me a better answer and I'll consider it.

paulm50 · Jun 15, 2015

Chriliman said:
The term "absolute truth" means a truth that is unchangeable or unalterable, it is the single truth that explains everything. This is what we're all trying to understand. The fact that we don't understand it yet, means we must believe it's there to be understood. If you're intelligent then you'll agree with this.

This also means anyone can say what they believe the absolute truth is, simply because absolute truth is not yet defined by our subjective minds and can never be defined by our subjective minds. Science may claim to "try" to be objective, but we must understand that science will never reach absolute objectivity. Anyone with any intelligence will agree with this.

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
Einstein

What if we take this statement from Einstein a step further and say: Everything is made as simple as possible and we actually have nothing to do with it because we fall within everything that has been made as simple as possible.

Our drive to find a simple answer to the universe is actually our drive to understand a vast complexity that we can never fully understand because we are a part of that vast complexity that was not made by us. There's a simple answer and it's in the Bible. Getting to the simple answer is not an easy process.

Can you think of simpler laws to live by than the following?

Matthew 22:36-40
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

If everyone believed in these laws, where would we go wrong? It's based in love, is true love corruptible?

“Simple can be harder than complex: You have to work hard to get your thinking clean to make it simple. But it’s worth it in the end because once you get there, you can move mountains.”
Steve Jobs

I don't know if Jobs was a Christian, but this quote is basically straight out of the Bible.

Matthew 17:20
"Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

Explain to me why there is so much connection between what the Bible says and what modern geniuses like Einstein and Jobs said? Problem is you can't explain it, but I can. What's the difference between me and you? I have faith in God and you do not.

Continue not believing and you'll continue being blinded from seeing the truth. Start comparing what geniuses are saying to what the Bible is saying and you'll begin to see that all genius came from one single Genius mind that authored the Bible.

The bible doesn't make it simpler, it makes Genesis wrong. There's a way to describe evolution simple enough for Bronze Age Man to understand. Genesis doesn't take that route, it's just wrong.

The Universe came first. Billions of years late the Earth cooled enough for seas to form, then life to start. Then plants covered the land. From the seas came creatures that walked the Earth, some were lost and some survived. One animal became mightier than the rest. Man and for may 100,000s of year he hunted and gathered. Then he became farmers.

In Genesis Cain and Abel start as a farmers. Genesis misses a lot, it even gets the sequence wrong. The universe came first.

I still go back to, if god did create Man and the Earth, he created them to fail, and then carry on killing as many of us as possible.

Chriliman · Jun 15, 2015

paulm50 said:
I still go back to, if god did create Man and the Earth, he created them to fail, and then carry on killing as many of us as possible.

And this is where you miss the mark. If you want to consider that God created man and the earth, then you should listen to what that God says and this is what he says:

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

If you follow these two commandments you will be taught the truth by God. However, if you don't then you must think that true love is corruptible and you then become part of the problem, not the solution. The answer to life is love and God has expressed true love by sacrificing himself for those who love Him. As long as your alive, it's never to late to believe in Him and experience His true love and His true wisdom and knowledge, which is where all love, wisdom, and knowledge come from.

paulm50 · Jun 15, 2015

Chriliman said:
Okay then here is where science is stumped. If it's absolutely true that the universe was once a singularity how then can it be absolutely true that it is no longer a singularity? If it was absolutely, unchangeably true that it was a singularity how was this unchangeable truth changed into it no longer being an unchangeable singularity? Well the obvious logical answer is that a force outside the universe acted and thus we have the universe as we see it today. Give me a better answer and I'll consider it.

Where did you read "If it's absolutely true that the universe was once a singularity,"? Or different universes.

At one time we only knew the Universe as what we can see with the naked eye, like Bronze Age Man, then we invented telescopes and could see further, now we have the Hubble Space Telescope. And we can see more. I think you should consider the question you asked a lot more.

How many universes are there?

The fact that no one knows the answer to this question is what makes it exciting. The story of physics has been one of an ever-expanding understanding of the sheer scale of reality, to the point where physicists are now postulating that there may be far more universes than just our own. Chris Anderson explores the thrilling implications of this idea.

Before asking a question, do what I do before answering it. Use Google.

paulm50 · Jun 15, 2015

Chriliman said:
And this is where you miss the mark. If you want to consider that God created man and the earth, then you should listen to what that God says and this is what he says:

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

If you follow these two commandments you will be taught the truth by God. However, if you don't then you must think that true love is corruptible and you then become part of the problem, not the solution. The answer to life is love and God has expressed true love by sacrificing himself for those who love Him. As long as your alive, it's never to late to believe in Him and experience His true love and His true wisdom and knowledge, which is where all love, wisdom, and knowledge come from.

That does nothing to explain all the deaths god caused. He cause Cain to kill Abel, killed the people and animals in Sodom and Gomorrah, little children who were innocent, animals who knew no better.

The people of Egypt who had no idea what Moses was asking Pharaoh died from the Plagues, lost their sons. Then killed innocent troops who were just following order. Jericho, because the Canaanite were in the wrong place. This goes for a lot more cities in the area and armies.

The flood killed everyone and everything, animals, babies, children, and people who had no knowledge of your god.

And this month the Earth will kill more, even if they love your god and love the law of the prophets. It's absolutely no protection. The earth was designed to kill them.

Chriliman · Jun 15, 2015

paulm50 said:
Where did you read "If it's absolutely true that the universe was once a singularity,"? Or different universes.

At one time we only knew the Universe as what we can see with the naked eye, like Bronze Age Man, then we invented telescopes and could see further, now we have the Hubble Space Telescope. And we can see more. I think you should consider the question you asked a lot more.

How many universes are there?

Before asking a question, do what I do before answering it. Use Google.

How is the concept of a multi-verse any different than the concept of God? Both are unprovable, yet if you believe in the one true God, He will prove himself to you. If you believe in a multi-verse, well you're believing in something that can't be proven.

I don't think you understand how far I've come to realize what I've realized. I've read many science books and studied quantum physics. Stephen Hawking does a great job of explaining the more complex things about the origins of the universe, I just happen to disagree with him when He says asking what came before the universe is like asking what's north of the north pole. There is nothing north of the north pole and this is absolutely true, however if there is nothing before the beginning of the universe and this is absolutely true then it should be absolutely true that the universe is still nothing. See how this thinking doesn't make sense?

Chriliman · Jun 15, 2015

paulm50 said:
That does nothing to explain all the deaths god caused. He cause Cain to kill Abel, killed the people and animals in Sodom and Gomorrah, little children who were innocent, animals who knew no better.

The people of Egypt who had no idea what Moses was asking Pharaoh died from the Plagues, lost their sons. Then killed innocent troops who were just following order. Jericho, because the Canaanite were in the wrong place. This goes for a lot more cities in the area and armies.

The flood killed everyone and everything, animals, babies, children, and people who had no knowledge of your god.

And this month the Earth will kill more, even if they love your god and love the law of the prophets. It's absolutely no protection. The earth was designed to kill them.

If you believe in the one true God then death has lost it's sting. Do you know what happens after death? If you don't, then why do you think it's so bad? Is it because it causes pain and sorrow? Yes, but if you believed the people you love most who died, actually went to a better place when they died, would you feel better or worse about their death? And yes you can say this is the very reason God was created, to make us feel better, well what if he wasn't created, what if He's always existed and created us and when you believe in Him, He rewards you and affirms your beliefs. Would you consider this possibly over the unprovable possibility of a multi-verse? I'd hope so.

HitchSlap · Jun 15, 2015

Chriliman said:
Chriliman said - "I guess if you really think your beliefs don't matter, then why should I listen to you at all? If everyone thought their beliefs don't matter and everyone agreed, what would drive us to even communicate with one another?"

Seriously just think about it. If you were the only man on earth with all the current knowledge you have and all the sudden another man appeared in front of you, with very little to 0 knowledge, you could tell this man that the truth is based on evidence and facts. He would first have to believe you and then learn from you and then attempt experiments himself. It started with belief.

If, instead you decided to tell him nothing because you don't think your beliefs matter, what would the man do? He would explore on his own and discover things and form his own beliefs about the world, except the beliefs he'd likely form would be far from the truth that you could have easily told him and shown him.

Point is, beliefs are very important and since there is only one absolute truth about this life, believing in that absolute truth is the most important thing a human can do in life.

I think you're well aware of what I believe the absolute truth is. I hope and pray that someday you believe it as well. The Bible tells me to love my enemies and pray for them.

Matthew 5:44
"But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"

I think if you really think about that, you'll realize it's something you can't possibly do on your own will power, the ability to actually love your enemies can only come from true love, which is God.

Can you imagine what this world would be like if we all loved our enemies? I think it wouldn't take long for enemies to become friends. This is God's desire. Why wouldn't you want to believe in a God who thinks like this and can give you eternal life? Show me any other "religion" that even comes close to being this beautiful! Believe if you want to believe and you will see, don't believe and you won't see.

Ok Don Quixote, I was referring specifically to that situation. In that particular instance, beliefs didn't matter in light of reality.

Carry on with those windmills, Senor.

paulm50 · Jun 15, 2015

Chriliman said:
How is the concept of a multi-verse any different than the concept of God? Both are unprovable, yet if you believe in the one true God, He will prove himself to you. If you believe in a multi-verse, well you're believing in something that can't be proven.

I don't think you understand how far I've come to realize what I've realized. I've read many science books and studied quantum physics. Stephen Hawking does a great job of explaining the more complex things about the origins of the universe, I just happen to disagree with him when He says asking what came before the universe is like asking what's north of the north pole. There is nothing north of the north pole and this is absolutely true, however if there is nothing before the beginning of the universe and this is absolutely true then it should be absolutely true that the universe is still nothing. See how this thinking doesn't make sense?

They are saying no one knows about other Universe, you're saying god does exist. Both are unprovable, but one side is claiming one exists and the other is looking at the possibility.

I think you should study the part I quoted from the page I linked to. You seem to think science stops learning and trying to learn more. Science will go back and change what it learned, once they said dinosaurs couldn't of evolved into birds, now they say they do. The bible ignores the existence of dinosaurs. Some insist we didn't evolve from a branch of the Ape family to the Hominid family and then after many attempts, Home Sapiens.

Some are so blind they believe the sons of the first people were farmers. As crazy as that sounds, some insist it's true because it's written in a book.

Paul of Eugene OR · Jun 15, 2015

Chriliman said:
I've read and learned enough science to realize we'll never get to the absolute truth by observing our universe, unless we could somehow become beings that are not subjectively bound inside our brains. I've sought biblical truth and scientific truth and have realized after the experiences I've had that biblical truths can explain this universe and why I'm here far better than science can explain it. But I still have to "believe" the bible has all the answers, just like I'd have to believe science has all the answeres. Because the truth is many of you don't know the absolute truth about life, which is why you MUST BELIEVE it's there to be known.

This idea that one must believe something, no matter what, is a logical error that must be overcome. When faced with insufficient evidence, one must remain in doubt.

paulm50 · Jun 15, 2015

Chriliman said:
If you believe in the one true God then death has lost it's sting. Do you know what happens after death? If you don't, then why do you think it's so bad? Is it because it causes pain and sorrow? Yes, but if you believed the people you love most who died, actually went to a better place when they died, would you feel better or worse about their death? And yes you can say this is the very reason God was created, to make us feel better, well what if he wasn't created, what if He's always existed and created us and when you believe in Him, He rewards you and affirms your beliefs. Would you consider this possibly over the unprovable possibility of a multi-verse? I'd hope so.

Nothing, nothing what so ever. We're dead. In fact I fear death less than you. I'm not obsessed with getting all those laws right, in case I don't make it to the fantasy land.

As I asked, which of the old laws do you ignore? As Jesus said they are to be kept, and if you're not keeping them all. you might not go to Heaven. Do you have clothes of two cloths on, cut your hair, eat shellfish, a cheeseburger, non kosher food, pork, eating fat, do you know how hard it is to not eat fat?

I don't have to worry abut these things.

Chriliman · Jun 15, 2015

Paul of Eugene OR said:
This idea that one must believe something, no matter what, is a logical error that must be overcome. When faced with insufficient evidence, one must remain in doubt.

Which came first belief or doubt? Isn't doubt just lack of belief?

Were you born to doubt or were you born to believe?

If, instead you say you were born to learn, well someone had to show you that you can learn, meaning you had to believe you could learn before you learned anything.

Even after all evidence is presented to me, I still have to believe that the evidence represents absolute truth, simply because my subjective mind can't comprehend absolute truth nor can I comprehend absolute objective evidence. Show me absolute objective evidence and I'll still have to use my subjective brain to believe it's actually there.

Chriliman · Jun 15, 2015

paulm50 said:
Nothing, nothing what so ever. We're dead. In fact I fear death less than you. I'm not obsessed with getting all those laws right, in case I don't make it to the fantasy land.

As I asked, which of the old laws do you ignore? As Jesus said they are to be kept, and if you're not keeping them all. you might not go to Heaven. Do you have clothes of two cloths on, cut your hair, eat shellfish, a cheeseburger, non kosher food, pork, eating fat, do you know how hard it is to not eat fat?

I don't have to worry abut these things.

If you keep the greatest commandments, first of all you're life will change and secondly God will show you anything else that still matters. So if you feel guilt for eating bacon after you've fully given your life to Christ, well you'd better investigate why you feel guitly eating bacon because God is trying to teach you something. I for one do not feel guilty eating bacon, but that could change because I live for a living God, but at the moment he's not concerned with my bacon eating he's more concerned with what I'm telling YOU. I pray my words hit there marks in Jesus Name!

joshua 1 9 · Jun 15, 2015

paulm50 said:
The bible makes the things up for you, Christians just repeat them.

I mostly just read the Bible. I do not trust people to tell me what the bible says. As far as Pangaea most of what know is from a study of the ghosts ranch dinosaurs in new mexico. This is where creation first grew teeth and began to devour or destroy itself. Christians believe this was the work of Satan to get God's creation to destroy itself. That is why he tempted Eve later on in the garden to rebellion against God.

Chriliman · Jun 15, 2015

joshua 1 9 said:
I mostly just read the Bible. I do not trust people to tell me what the bible says.

Great answer. Just don't forget that God will use people to teach you His truth as well, that is what the body of Christ is for.

Colossians 3:14-16
"And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God."

joshua 1 9 · Jun 15, 2015

paulm50 said:
eat shellfish, a cheeseburger, non kosher food, pork, eating fat, do you know how hard it is to not eat fat?

Science is very strict about the diet we are to eat if we wanna be healthy and PBS does all they can to promote that teaching. I believe we are to follow all of the teachings of the bible. Esp if we take our priesthood serious.

joshua 1 9 · Jun 15, 2015

Chriliman said:
Great answer. Just don't forget that God will use people to teach you His truth as well, that is what the body of Christ is for.

Colossians 3:14-16
"And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God."

Its fine if people want to share what God is teaching them. I just have a problem when the teachings goes from person to person.

Chriliman · Jun 15, 2015

joshua 1 9 said:
Its fine if people want to share what God is teaching them. I just have a problem when the teachings goes from person to person.

Yea, everything should be backed up by scripture, indeed!

God Bless!

ScottA · Jun 15, 2015

paulm50 said:
So god created it, and it doesn't exist as a real thing. Can you link us to the part of Genesis that says this, exactly as you explain it.

Genesis 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

But if you do not understand this to be a "dim" (extremely limited) and elementary, children's version of the story...then you will not see what it eludes to. Compared to actual direct communication from God, all scripture is in parable, that those who are not in communication are confounded. It is indeed all there, but only in part, and only discerned spiritually. Sorry, but that, by design, does not leave room for debate. In order to get the complete information, you must sincerely believe in the possibility, and ask. And remember, if you did the same thing with a very important person (the President, for example), you should not expect an audience. He decides.

Your definition of finite (thank you) is exactly what I meant: Human/worldly knowledge and existence is finite, and beyond that (realm) is infinite knowledge. But because it is beyond human expertise, questions about it cannot be answered by finite human knowledge no matter how advanced. The only means of attaining such infinite knowledge, is if it is revealed from outside this finite realm.

ScottA · Jun 15, 2015

paulm50 said:
If god created the Earth, and the Garden of Eden with all it's components, plus Cain and Abel. He has been trying his utmost to kill as many of us as possible since the beginning.

He created an Earth that today killed many, when due to rain, flash floods hit Tbilisi, Georgia. They haven't totalled the dead up yet. He created the Malaysian earthquake was blamed on a group taking naked pictures on a sacred mountain. Nepal and Borneo earthquakes, Colorado storms, Winter weather in Tennessee, Snowstorm in Syria, flooding in Peru, and these are just a few recent one. Add to them all the bugs that carry diseases, germs, cancer, the list is too long to include all the ways he is trying to kill us.

He created an Earth that has so many ways to kill us. Infant mortality is at it's worse in very Christian countries, check out the statistics.

Add to these things like too much rain, snow, or now enough rain or snow, too cold, too hot. Crops are very fragile, the last thing they need is a weather system, created by god, that makes them fail. Look at California for evidence.

This World kills indiscriminately, doesn't care if you're the most holy of evil. Be in the wrong place at the wrong time, it will kill you. It's been designed to kill you.

Or is someone else responsible for it? Maybe satan did all this and god can't stop him. We're not to blame, these things take the innocent and guilty with them.

If I may... It's more like this: God has our souls in a jar, and he created a virtual reality where we have a chance to see him for what he is, and if we can appreciate that...then he will allow us to be born (again) into the "real" world beyond this virtual non-existence. Until then...no one is actually alive and therefore can not die (like so many virtual cartoon characters bleeding virtual blood and dying in their heartfelt, but unreal existence). No actual bloodshed, no actual cruelty, no actual death. Pretty cool!

If the beginnings of Genesis aren't literally true, then what way are they true?

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