If Protestantism is true, why they are not united? (2)

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MoreCoffee

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Let's face it Coffee, there are parts of the Roman Catholic part of Christianity that Protestants still protest. I'm among them...I just don't go screaming that Catholics, Pope,Clergy and Laity are wicked or sinful or the 666 creature in Revelations. and I don't discount your faith...I just disagree with a few of the ways Rome did things in the past and that being held as the full and complete truth.

The fact is, every single one of us only have one complete truth...no matter of denomination.

Christ.
Did you mean "indignation"?

I am none the better informed for having read your reply.

Mind you, there are plenty of folk in GT telling me that the pope is antichrist or that the papacy is or that Catholicism is so I reckon that there's no shortage of folk around who think 666 is written on the papal triple crown ;)

Did you see that large 'end times' chart with all the beasties on it from the Millerites? It's quite odd, has that big statue from Nebuchadnezzar's dream with the four parts identified as
  • Babylon
  • Media-Persia
  • Grecia
  • Rome
    • ten-kingdoms
And then it had one of the beasts with a lot of horns and one tall horn with the pope's triple crown atop it. And it left me wondering how it all got invented. It's such a weird way to read scripture ...

Anyway, did you mean "indignation"?

PS: The big statue thingie, it really is about
  • Babylon
  • Media
  • Persia
  • Greece
    • clay & iron being the divided post Alexander Greek empires.
 
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Targaryen

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Did you mean "indignation"?

I am none the better informed for having read your reply.

Mind you, there are plenty of folk in GT telling me that the pope is antichrist or that the papacy is or that Catholicism is so I reckon that there's no shortage of folk around who think 666 is written on the papal triple crown ;)

Did you see that large 'end times' chart with all the beasties on it from the Millerites? It's quite odd, has that big statue from Nebuchadnezzar's dream with the four parts identified as
  • Babylon
  • Media-Persia
  • Grecia
  • Rome
    • ten-kingdoms
And then it had one of the beasts with a lot of horns and one tall horn with the pope's triple crown atop it. And it left me wondering how it all got invented. It's such a weird way to read scripture ...

Anyway, did you mean "indignation"?

PS:
The big statue thingie, it really is about
  • Babylon
  • Media
  • Persia
  • Greece
    • clay & iron being the divided post Alexander Greek empires.

Yes I did mean indignation.

Luther didn't at first want to break away from Rome. He wanted the issues he dealt with in his theses checked and corrected by Rome. The Pope on the other hand was a bit indignant, after all, Luther was a mere priest in a town in Germany, he didn't have to deal with monetary and jurisidiction and enforcement of the entire Catholic church, as far as the west saw it then, the world's only Christian church. So he got indignant, so did other Catholics. It had to be heresy. Same thing when Luther was given the Papal Bull of excommunication, he reacted indignantly and called the Pope and Anti-Christ.

Same goes on through each break, Calvinist,Anglican, Zwinglian and on ad near infinitum to this point where we stand today.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Yes I did mean indignation.

Luther didn't at first want to break away from Rome. He wanted the issues he dealt with in his theses checked and corrected by Rome. The Pope on the other hand was a bit indignant, after all, Luther was a mere priest in a town in Germany, he didn't have to deal with monetary and jurisidiction and enforcement of the entire Catholic church, as far as the west saw it then, the world's only Christian church. So he got indignant, so did other Catholics. It had to be heresy. Same thing when Luther was given the Papal Bull of excommunication, he reacted indignantly and called the Pope and Anti-Christ.

Same goes on through each break, Calvinist,Anglican, Zwinglian and on ad near infinitum to this point where we stand today.
The motives that Martin Luther actually had when he was busy writing the ninety-five theses are not so easy to know but some of the things he wrote in them were not aimed at peaceful reform were they? Honestly... And Martin Luther did his theses to the door thing in 1517 but was not excommunicated until 1521 that gave him four to five years to reflect on what he'd done. When he was finally excommunicated he showed his attitude by allegedly burning the bulla containing his excommunication. And didn't Martin Luther call the popes antichrist before he was excommunicated? Didn't he write "We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist." on the 18th of August 1520? So, I am thinking that the indignant comments may have started with Martin Luther, maybe he was a little bit heated to start with and things went badly thereafter.
 
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squint

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The motives that Martin Luther actually had when he was busy writing the ninety-five theses are not so easy to know but some of the things he wrote in them were not aimed at peaceful reform were they? Honestly... And Martin Luther did his theses to the door thing in 1517 but was not excommunicated until 1521 that gave him four to five years to reflect on what he'd done. When he was finally excommunicated he showed his attitude by allegedly burning the bulla containing his excommunication. And didn't Martin Luther call the popes antichrist before he was excommunicated? Didn't he write "We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist." on the 18th of August 1520? So, I am thinking that the indignant comments may have started with Martin Luther, maybe he was a little bit heated to start with and things went badly thereafter.

Well we sure wouldn't want to look at specific complaints when the ones making the rules are infallible huh?

.Gov tries to falsely vilify whistleblowers all the time.

It's nothing new.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Martin Luther came before .gov was invented. And Martin Luther was quickly incorporated into .prince-elector so it seems that he, like so many since his time, found a niche in which to safely protest while his protectors made it a crime to oppose the new teachings he propagated. My guess is that Martin Luther was just as human and just as sin prone as the two popes he disliked so much.
 
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squint

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Martin Luther came before .gov was invented. And Martin Luther was quickly incorporated into .prince-elector so it seems that he, like so many since his time, found a niche in which to safely protest while his protectors made it a crime to oppose the new teachings he propagated. My guess is that Martin Luther was just as human and just as sin prone as the two popes he disliked so much.

Yes let us always vilify the whistleblowers.
 
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The motives that Martin Luther actually had when he was busy writing the ninety-five theses are not so easy to know but some of the things he wrote in them were not aimed at peaceful reform were they? Honestly... And Martin Luther did his theses to the door thing in 1517 but was not excommunicated until 1521 that gave him four to five years to reflect on what he'd done. When he was finally excommunicated he showed his attitude by allegedly burning the bulla containing his excommunication. And didn't Martin Luther call the popes antichrist before he was excommunicated? Didn't he write "We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist." on the 18th of August 1520? So, I am thinking that the indignant comments may have started with Martin Luther, maybe he was a little bit heated to start with and things went badly thereafter.

You hsve s point, but to be as fair, we have to look at the papacy prior to Luther, really to the Papacy the Alexander VI had, as he was really, at least amongst some historians, a key factor in the Renaissance era era papacy was also the ost corrupt out of really any other time in history.

The papacy really didn't want it power base challenged, Luther might have been indignant to that but by the same token, he did have a valid point there.
 
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MoreCoffee

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You have a point, but to be as fair, we have to look at the papacy prior to Luther, really to the Papacy that Alexander VI had, as he was really, at least amongst some historians, a key factor in the Renaissance era papacy and was also the most corrupt out of really any other time in history.

The papacy really didn't want it power base challenged, Luther might have been indignant to that but by the same token, he did have a valid point there.
Alexander VI died in 1503 which was fourteen years before Martin Luther did the 95 Theses; in 1503 Martin Luther was 20 years old, so he would remember a little of Alexander's papacy maybe. Depends on how much was known in Germany of the Borgia pope. It would be Julius II with which Martin Luther would be more familiar and with Leo X. Neither of those popes was noted for corruption. The assessment of Alexander VI by his successors is notable, Julius II said
I will not live in the same rooms as the Borgias lived. He [Alexander VI] desecrated the Holy Church as none before. He usurped the papal power by the devil's aid, and I forbid under the pain of excommunication anyone to speak or think of Borgia again. His name and memory must be forgotten. It must be crossed out of every document and memorial. His reign must be obliterated. All paintings made of the Borgias or for them must be covered over with black crepe. All the tombs of the Borgias must be opened and their bodies sent back to where they belong - to Spain.​
And it is to be noted that the Borgia apartments remained sealed until nineteenth century.

Leo X was a Medici and consequently brought wealth and worldly power with him to the papal throne, no doubt his family's reputation would have an impact on perceptions about him, but the impact of his family was not wholly negative. It was Leo X who granted indulgences for financial contributions towards the payments for building the new Saint Peter's basilica in Rome and since it is generally thought that Martin Luther was most unhappy about the abuse of indulgences in his home land it seems to me that Leo X would be the main target of Martin's anti-papal comments and it was Leo X who issued the bulla excommunicating Martin Luther in 1521 (the name of the bulla is Contra Errores).

Leo X responded to Luther's 95 theses with papal bulla Exsurge Domine in June 1520. It was a case of too late and too little. By this time Luther's anti-papal movement was too widespread to stop. Luther had not been idle in the years since 1517 and his contempt for Leo X had not faltered so on 20th-December-1520 Martin Luther publicly burned a copy of Exsurge Domine signifying his defiance and disdain for Leo X's authority.

The war of words was now so deeply entrenched that nothing on earth could heal it and we, who live almost five hundred years later, cannot heal it either. But for all of Martin Luther's rage against the pope it was the pandora's box that he opened that led to the most extensive and enduring divisions that we see today in the churches that came out of his protest.
 
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There were valid reasons why millions and entire countries abandoned the RCC. You can tin foil hat your head til the cows come home in order to insulate yourself from that reality.
The song was for the conspiracy theory that is bound to come out of your one or more of your posts in opposition to Catholicism at some stage in the debate ;)
 
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The song was for the conspiracy theory that is bound to come out of your one or more of your posts in opposition to Catholicism at some stage in the debate ;)

It's no conspiracy theory that mankind are sinners Mr. Coffee.

And when it gets ugly, you can bank on the fact that the people of God in Christ will not stand for it, when it's in the so called church.
 
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Alexander VI died in 1503 which was fourteen years before Martin Luther did the 95 Theses; in 1503 Martin Luther was 20 years old, so he would remember a little of Alexander's papacy maybe. Depends on how much was known in Germany of the Borgia pope. It would be Julius II with which Martin Luther would be more familiar and with Leo X. Neither of those popes was noted for corruption. The assessment of Alexander VI by his successors is notable, Julius II said
I will not live in the same rooms as the Borgias lived. He [Alexander VI] desecrated the Holy Church as none before. He usurped the papal power by the devil's aid, and I forbid under the pain of excommunication anyone to speak or think of Borgia again. His name and memory must be forgotten. It must be crossed out of every document and memorial. His reign must be obliterated. All paintings made of the Borgias or for them must be covered over with black crepe. All the tombs of the Borgias must be opened and their bodies sent back to where they belong - to Spain.​
And it is to be noted that the Borgia apartments remained sealed until nineteenth century.

Leo X was a Medici and consequently brought wealth and worldly power with him to the papal throne, no doubt his family's reputation would have an impact on perceptions about him, but the impact of his family was not wholly negative. It was Leo X who granted indulgences for financial contributions towards the payments for building the new Saint Peter's basilica in Rome and since it is generally thought that Martin Luther was most unhappy about the abuse of indulgences in his home land it seems to me that Leo X would be the main target of Martin's anti-papal comments and it was Leo X who issued the bulla excommunicating Martin Luther in 1521 (the name of the bulla is Contra Errores).

Leo X responded to Luther's 95 theses with papal bulla Exsurge Domine in June 1520. It was a case of too late and too little. By this time Luther's anti-papal movement was too widespread to stop. Luther had not been idle in the years since 1517 and his contempt for Leo X had not faltered so on 20th-December-1520 Martin Luther publicly burned a copy of Exsurge Domine signifying his defiance and disdain for Leo X's authority.

The war of words was now so deeply entrenched that nothing on earth could heal it and we, who live almost five hundred years later, cannot heal it either. But for all of Martin Luther's rage against the pope it was the pandora's box that he opened that led to the most extensive and enduring divisions that we see today in the churches that came out of his protest.

Yes all the facts surrounding Alexander VI are true, but you fail to account for the shaping factor he did have on the Papacy of that era. Leo X might have disliked Alexander VI a fair bit, but the papacy did benefit in a way from some of those abuses of the office Alexander VI undertook.

Leo X may have started the indulgences doctrine, but if not for the politcal heavy Curia and College of Cardinals, alexander VI used during his say in the chair, then I doubt it would've had the same type of effect as it did.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Yes all the facts surrounding Alexander VI are true, but you fail to account for the shaping factor he did have on the Papacy of that era. Leo X might have disliked Alexander VI a fair bit, but the papacy did benefit in a way from some of those abuses of the office Alexander VI undertook.

Leo X may have started the indulgences doctrine, but if not for the politcal heavy Curia and College of Cardinals, alexander VI used during his say in the chair, then I doubt it would've had the same type of effect as it did.
Indulgences go back to the third and possibly the second century so Leo X could not have started them but he did allow people to donate to the construction of the replacement basilica of saint Peter in Rome and that led, unfortunately, to men like Tetzel setting prices for the indulgences and thus being open to accusations of selling them. He was disciplined for his wickedness, but that was not sufficient for what Martin Luther had started.

Have you read through the 95 theses? If you have then you can see why things became so inflammatory so quickly.

As for Alexander VI, his chief failings were not administrative nor were they legal, his administration of the city of Rome was a great improvement over its state when he became pope. He did much to restore justice, put four magistrates in charge of the four quarters of the city, dispensed justice quickly, and punished assassins who have previously been left unpunished. He also undertook the fortification of the city and its waterways rebuilt the roads and improved the living conditions of the populace. But he failed in his personal life, kept a mistress, had children, favoured them with positions in the city and the church and was regarded as morally scandalous. Thus Julius II's condemning words about Alexander's apartments in the Vatican.

It may be that the reputation of the Borgia is far more unsavoury than the reality. Just as the Carthaginians were painted as human sacrificing savages by the ancient pagan Romans so was Alexander painted in as negative a light as his detractors desired. We've heard more of his corruption and wickedness than of any good things he did and much of what we've heard about his evils is very likely exaggeration.
 
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It's no conspiracy theory ...
But your constant claims that when I gainsay your doctrine I am thereby declaring you a heretic and condemning you to eternal torments and would be willing, given the opportunity, to have you maltreated in this life too, that is a conspiracy theory worthy of other threads alleging a worldwide Jesuit conspiracy. Your posts are a constant attack on Catholicism. Your justification for those attacks is little more than your say so.
 
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