If One Believes in Intelligent Design...

[OldWiseGuy]

The barbarity of the natural world is a reflection of the spiritual characters, the destruction and intrigue, of the spirits responsible for the original 'fall'. What has happened in the created world is a reenactment of what happened in the fall of the spirit realm, the first Kingdom of God. The terrible creatures, past and present, reflect the fallen nature of the sinning angels. The destruction of the earth reflects the destruction of the integrity of God's original angelic kingdom.

 

[BL2KTN]

Yahweh got busy when the dirt-man and rib-woman were tricked by the talking leg-snake into eating a magic fruit! Not only did he condemn all people everywhere to trillions of years being set on fire, but he also created millions and millions of ways to hurt them and other animals.

"Hell's not enough, I'm making malaria, black plague, mental diseases, and scorpion stingers!"

 

[Received]

I've heard arguments that God providentially created animals with stingers and fangs to deal with the consequences of a fallen world.

The issue really doesn't bother me because I consider Genesis "myth", in the non-perjorative sense, a "true myth".

The problem of pain is something apologists like William Lane Craig or C.S. Lewis have addressed. We don't know for certain how much, or even if, animals suffer. They clearly feel pain, but to suffer is more than to feel pain, suffering for human beings results from the cognitive faculties we have, the ability to imagine the world as being something other than "the way it is". One can suffer and not be feeling any pain at all.

Suffering implies freedom, which animals only have at a physiological or possibly psychological level. An animal in pain is like a human being who would otherwise twist and moan and despair and do all sorts of other things that suffering does to make pain twenty times worse -- but doesn't do this. There is animal cruelty, but it seems like where humans are concerned the cruelty of pain is inflicted on ourselves and called suffering.

 

[theophilus777]

The barbarity of the natural world is a reflection of the spiritual characters, the destruction and intrigue, of the spirits responsible for the original 'fall'. What has happened in the created world is a reenactment of what happened in the fall of the spirit realm, the first Kingdom of God. The terrible creatures, past and present, reflect the fallen nature of the sinning angels. The destruction of the earth reflects the destruction of the integrity of God's original angelic kingdom.

Yahweh got busy when the dirt-man and rib-woman were tricked by the talking leg-snake into eating a magic fruit! Not only did he condemn all people everywhere to trillions of years being set on fire, but he also created millions and millions of ways to hurt them and other animals.

"Hell's not enough, I'm making malaria, black plague, mental diseases, and scorpion stingers!"

Glad to see you learning something, but falsely attributing this to Yahweh still misses the point. I'm beginning to think you do that intentionally.

 

[BL2KTN]

Glad to see you learning something, but falsely attributing this to Yahweh still misses the point. I'm beginning to think you do that intentionally.

Okay then, who designed malaria, small pox, wasp stingers, snake venom, the black plague, tsunamis, etc?

 

[theophilus777]

Okay then, who designed malaria, small pox, wasp stingers, snake venom, the black plague, tsunamis, etc?

You claim to be familiar enough with Scripture to understand the concept that all these things are perversions of God's original intent. Further, you seem to be intelligent enough to realize a literal understanding of that need not be the point, (in terms of perfection before the fall then suddenly WHAM!) but merely an explanation for life as it is to a people of the iron age, or perhaps even of the stone age. And that as myth, it can still convey Spiritual Truth.

Or am I wrong, and such concepts really are beyond your grasp?

 

[BL2KTN]

You claim to be familiar enough with Scripture to understand the concept that all these things are perversions of God's original intent. Further, you seem to be intelligent enough to realize a literal understanding of that need not be the point, (in terms of perfection before the fall then suddenly WHAM!) but merely an explanation for life as it is to a people of the iron age, or perhaps even of the stone age. And that as myth, it can still convey Spiritual Truth.

Or am I wrong, and such concepts really are beyond your grasp?

I'm cool with you thinking parts of the bible are myth intended to teach spiritual truth. I am not cool with your demeaning tone, but you seem to be intent on keeping it.

So I take it you believe in evolution, thirteen billion year-old universe, big bang, all of that?

 

[theophilus777]

I'm cool with you thinking parts of the bible are myth intended to teach spiritual truth. I am not cool with your demeaning tone, but you seem to be intent on keeping it.

I am not cool with your combination of professing knowledge, combined with vehemence against reason. Pick one or the other and I'm fine with it. It seems to me you have too much knowledge to be vehement against reason.

So I take it you believe in evolution, thirteen billion year-old universe, big bang, all of that?

Truthfully, I'm agnostic on those things. There's some interesting evidence and research, to be sure. Putting that data together in cogent fashion is fraught with difficulty, and problems to date. I think we as a species are still clearly missing the great majority of facts. With genetic info we have a recent abundance of facts, but aren't doing so well with processing them. IMHO.

 

[BL2KTN]

I am not cool with your combination of professing knowledge, combined with vehemence against reason. Pick one or the other and I'm fine with it. It seems to me you have too much knowledge to be vehement against reason.

I love both knowledge and reason. I think the truth is that you dislike my conclusions.

Truthfully, I'm agnostic on those things. There's some interesting evidence and research, to be sure. Putting that data together in cogent fashion is fraught with difficulty, and problems to date. I think we as a species are still clearly missing the great majority of facts. With genetic info we have a recent abundance of facts, but aren't doing so well with processing them. IMHO.

We have more evidence for evolution than we do gravity. We sequenced the human genome in a little over a decade. Now we can sequence it for about $1,000... we know more about DNA exponentially each year.

 

[theophilus777]

I love both knowledge and reason. I think the truth is that you dislike my conclusions.

Liking or disliking conclusions has nothing to do with it. Presenting them as incontrovertible while simultaneously ignoring more than half of what's involved bothers me though.

We have more evidence for evolution than we do gravity.

Which is a non-statement since we have 0 understanding of what gravity even IS.

We sequenced the human genome in a little over a decade.

And I have had lengthy discussions with one of the leaders involved in that project.

Now we can sequence it for about $1,000

And I personally might benefit from this, medically. I can hope. I also know a couple 13 year old twin boys who suffer from EoE, as well as being severe with ASD, a really nasty combo. Very recently a genetic answer for the cause of EoE has been discovered, which holds real hope for more effective treatment being developed, not only for EoE but possibly other auto-immune disorders including lesser allergies and asthma.

... we know more about DNA exponentially each year.

Very cool stuff. We are 50% banana

Although the whole business of concluding we "know" the DNA similarities mean, ipso facto, that we evolved a certain way, is hogwash. Such evidence makes the theory PLAUSIBLE. And certainly there is nothing to compete with it in the realm of science. And scientists know the difference between the fact of evolution and the theory of evolution; yet we do not teach that, which gives rise to the turmoil surrounding it, which we see here ad nauseum.

In fact the idea of nested hierarchy coincides perfectly with the Biblical statement of "everything reproduces after its kind." So why are folks at odds with each other over this? Bad enough fundies want to be, but the best academia can do is "right back atcha?" We gotta do better. Life should be celebrated!

 

[BL2KTN]

Liking or disliking conclusions has nothing to do with it. Presenting them as incontrovertible while simultaneously ignoring more than half of what's involved bothers me though.

I present nothing as incontrovertible and I never ignore. Feel free to prove any of my conclusions false.

Which is a non-statement since we have 0 understanding of what gravity even IS.

We understand what gravity is, we simply do not understand how it works at the subatomic particle level.

And I have had lengthy discussions with one of the leaders involved in that project.

What is the purpose of this statement?

And I personally might benefit from this, medically. I can hope. I also know a couple 13 year old twin boys who suffer from EoE, as well as being severe with ASD, a really nasty combo. Very recently a genetic answer for the cause of EoE has been discovered, which holds real hope for more effective treatment being developed, not only for EoE but possibly other auto-immune disorders including lesser allergies and asthma.

The exponential rise in understanding of genetics will transform society over the next few decades.

Although the whole business of concluding we "know" the DNA similarities mean, ipso facto, that we evolved a certain way, is hogwash. Such evidence makes the theory PLAUSIBLE. And certainly there is nothing to compete with it in the realm of science. And scientists know the difference between the fact of evolution and the theory of evolution; yet we do not teach that, which gives rise to the turmoil surrounding it, which we see here ad nauseum.

Evolution is taught because evolution is a fact. We observe it, we see its history in genetics, we see its remains in fossils. As you say, there is no other plausible answer. What you fail to acknowledge is that every one of the billions of discoveries we make is in line with evolution, while not one of those billion has ever been in contradiction.

In fact the idea of nested hierarchy coincides perfectly with the Biblical statement of "everything reproduces after its kind." So why are folks at odds with each other over this? Bad enough fundies want to be, but the best academia can do is "right back atcha?" We gotta do better. Life should be celebrated!

No it does not. You do not get to pick random phrases of the bible to support your beliefs when its entirety speaks to a concept of hard lines between types of animals. In actuality there are no hard lines, only variations in genetic code.

 

[branchofthevine]

Well no because evolution is just a recognition of reality, like when we recognize that some species of insects eat the males after mating. It's not a moral system or an ideology. Intelligent Design per se isn't a moral system or belief either but the invocation of it is done in the context of a creator deity who is said to care about its creation and is all loving. So with evolution there's really no one to blame since nature generally and biology specifically is "blind" and isn't a person or conscious entity to be blamed for making imperfections, whereas a deity who is said to be all-knowing and all-powerful can be held accountable. Therein lies the difference.

hm... very interesting, and an interesting perspective. I don't think I totally agree with it. If creation reflects God, then certain His love would be reflected in the prevision and perseverance of the creation rather than in the creation itself.

Also, I don't see the need to blame God when man is in the world. Everything seems to go fine until we get involved and then everything goes bottoms up. Though, I suppose a lot of people just throw out anything from the Bible they don't particularly agree about and then the debate just dissolves into some other God of qualities separate from the Christian God, and any Christian involvement sort of becomes moot.

Though I find the interest in sound Christian Theology lacking from both parties on the matter, and so find myself quite happily to let them go at it on their own. I think that's reasonable enough anyways

 

[OldWiseGuy]

"Hell's not enough, I'm making malaria, black plague, mental diseases, and scorpion stingers!"

Each of these plagues-in-waiting needs a trigger mechanism. For example the trigger for STD's is sexual immorality. Eating 'bush meat' might be the trigger for ebola. Bad human thoughts and behavior are triggers for all sorts of problems. Got a headache? Stop hitting yourself in the head.

 

[BL2KTN]

Each of these plagues-in-waiting needs a trigger mechanism. For example the trigger for STD's is sexual immorality. Eating 'bush meat' might be the trigger for ebola. Bad human thoughts and behavior are triggers for all sorts of problems. Got a headache? Stop hitting yourself in the head.

I'll let the millions of children who died in torture of black plague know it was their fault.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I'll let the millions of children who died in torture of black plague know it was their fault.

It wasn't their fault. They suffered because of the faults of others, like a baby born with HIV. Nonetheless, faults = suffering.

 

[BL2KTN]

And whose fault was the black plague exactly? I'm curious since any person who had known its cause in that day would have managed to avoid it.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

And whose fault was the black plague exactly? I'm curious since any person who had known its cause in that day would have managed to avoid it.

From what I've read the whole world was primed for an outbreak of disease. Overpopulation and crowded living conditions, poor health, malnutrition, poor sanitation and hygiene, plus trade that helped to quickly spread plague and other diseases.

 

[PsychoSarah]

From what I've read the whole world was primed for an outbreak of disease. Overpopulation and crowded living conditions, poor health, malnutrition, poor sanitation and hygiene, plus trade that helped to quickly spread plague and other diseases.

Wow, you managed not to actually manage the creature that spread the disease, rats and the fleas they carried.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Psalm 104, in describing the design and works of God in creation speaks of the lion as intended to devour its prey,

"The trees of the LORD are watered abundantly,
the cedars of Lebanon that He planted.
In them the birds build their nests;
the stork has her home in the fir trees.
The high mountains are for the wild goats;
the rocks are a refuge for the rock badgers.

He made the moon to mark the seasons;
the sun knows its time for setting.
You make darkness, and it is night,
when all the beasts of the forest creep about.
The young lions roar for their prey,
seeking their food from God.
When the sun rises, they steal away
and lie down in their dens.
Man goes out to his work
and to his labor until the evening.

O LORD, how manifold your works!
In wisdom have you made them all;
the earth is full of your creatures."
- Psalm 104:16-24

Simultaneously the Prophet Isaiah foresees the coming time of universal peace,

"The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox." - Isaiah 11:6-7

I don't know if it would be right to force these ideas to compete against one another. Though the Psalm speaks of the present reality, and the Prophet speaks of a future reality. It is that future reality which the Christian believes is found in Christ, and at His coming again there is the renewal and restoration of all things and the advent of that eternal world of peace and justice for all.

The lion evolved as a predator, and fulfills its creative purpose in doing what it does. Whether or not God proactively "designed" the lion for that purpose is outside the realm of knowing. However evolution is part of the natural universe and thus embedded intentionally and the lion is the result of that evolutionary process. And yet there is an understanding that there is something better in store, a world where lion and ox exist not as predator and prey, but as companions.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BL2KTN]

From what I've read the whole world was primed for an outbreak of disease. Overpopulation and crowded living conditions, poor health, malnutrition, poor sanitation and hygiene, plus trade that helped to quickly spread plague and other diseases.

Those are the ways in which the disease spread - that is not whose fault it is. If you believe that Yahweh created everything, then it is Yahweh's fault because he purposefully designed a horrible, torturous disease that spread through the means you have suggested (plus rats). And He unleashed this disease among people who had no way of knowing how it spread.