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If Mary was sinless?

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thereselittleflower

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Jig said:
I see several religious institutes giving this falsely heightened regard for Mary, that we just don't see in Scriptures.

Jig, when were the books of the NT written in relationship to Mary's life and death?

Why would you expect to see this heightened regard of Mary while she was stlll alive?

In the only book known to be written after her death, we see her in heaven as the woman clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet, the crown of 12 stars. . ..

That's a pretty lofty description of Mary. :)



It's highly odd that a woman of such importance (at least to the degree of veneration) would be absent from the epstiles of the NT and hold absolutely no part in the early Church (at least this is what it appears given the inspired writings we have).

Why?



I think we see a prime example of this heightened attitude towards Mary in Scripture only to see Jesus Himself level it back down and redirect it to where the attention and veneration should be going to.

Luke 11:27-30


27As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."
28He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."


:) You left out a word . . . an important word . .. "YEA". . ..

Actually, if you understand Hebrew idioms, Jesus was saying "YEA, indeed" . . look again:
G3304
μενοῦνγε
menounge
men-oon'-geh
From G3303 and G3767 and G1065; so then at least: - nay but, yea doubtless (rather, verily).
The translation rendered thusly:
Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

This makes Mary DOUBLY BLESSED as not only is she blessed because she is His mother in actuallity, literally, she is ALSO blessed because she heard the word of God and KEPT IT.


So rather than being dismissal of what the woman said, Jesus AFFIRMED it and then gave it even more importance, whch applied to Mary foremost of all who heard and obeyed God in her perfect submission to His will "May it be done unto me according to thy word.".



Peace
 
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thereselittleflower

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Jig said:
I'm thinking this was the pattern of thinking the Pharisees used. Did you know they traced their roots back to Moses?

The Pharisees came into existance only a few hundred years before Christ. Did you know that? hundreds and hundreds of years after Moses ..

Which groups here came into existance hundreds and hundreds of years after the Apostles? The Catholics? No . . . . .



Your implied comparison is faulty


God had a hard time with the majority of Israel (His chosen people) believing correctly...only a small fraction withstood. History has the tendency to repeat itself.

Lotical Fallacy - Non Sequitur . . does not follow . . no facts to make any logical connection have been provided.



Peace
 
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Jig

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thereselittleflower said:
Jig, when were the books of the NT written in relationship to Mary's life and death?

Why would you expect to see this heightened regard of Mary while she was stlll alive?

Why would you not? Would she not carry an important role/part in the early Church, if she indeed was so special and unique amoung the other Christians? I would expect her to be in a position higher that any apostle, if the RCC position in regards to her was true.

We don't see this in Acts.

In the only book known to be written after her death, we see her in heaven as the woman clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet, the crown of 12 stars. . ..

That depends on institutional affiliation. Your Church teaches that intereptation. Which many believe comes from a fallacious understanding of Scripture.

That's a pretty lofty description of Mary. :)

Or a dead on description of Israel.




Why not?;)



:) You left out a word . . . an important word . .. "YEA". . ..


Actually, if you understand Hebrew idioms, Jesus was saying "YEA, indeed" . . look again:
G3304
μενοῦνγε
menounge
men-oon'-geh
From G3303 and G3767 and G1065; so then at least: - nay but, yea doubtless (rather, verily).

The translation rendered thusly:
Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

This makes Mary DOUBLY BLESSED as not only is she blessed because she is His mother in actuallity, literally, she isALSO blessed because she heard the word of God and KEPT IT.

I would expect Catholic scholars and translators to catch that one, however, in pro-Catholic translations, such as the NAB...we don't see that rendered that way. I would hope they would have a better understanding of Greek (not Hebrew) then you. Hmmm...

If an infallable teaching Magisterium is needed to overcome the conflicting interpretations of Scripture, how are we supposed to overcome the conflicting interpretations amoung Roman Catholics (by, for example, Jesuits, Franciscans, and Dominicans) regarding what the pronouncements of the Magisterium mean?
 
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BigChrisfilm

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thereselittleflower said:
First of all, let's be logical, OK?

You have not attacked my faith with much of what you posted.

You simply created strawman arguments that were easy to defeat and then acted as though those strawman arguments you fabricated had something to do with our teaching.

But they were mere fabrications.

They are not our teachng.


So the appropriate response is to identify the logical fallacies being employed, EXPOSE THEM so they can be dealt with, an end it there.

I don't have to defend something the Catholic Church doesn't teach simply because you want to claim they do.


I have seen many fabrications in your claims and arguments about the Catholic Church.

Surely you don't think it is logical to expect one to defend against somthing that has nothing to do with what one believes now do you?


If you do, this is simply another logical fallacy and i will simply call it out . . that is the only necessary response.


It is evident you don't understand the first thing about Catholicism.





Again, Logical Fallacy - Assumes facts not in evidence

Again, Logical Fallacy - Ignores facts in evidence




Again, Logical Fallacy - Assumes facts not in evidence

Again, Logical Fallacy - Ignores facts in evidence


If you want to debate Catholicism, then first you need to learn how to make a logically valid argument . .



Peace

Was she sinless or not? Answer that:doh:
 
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Benedicta00

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BigChrisfilm said:
If Mary was sinless, then how weird it must have been. She wouldn't have obeyed ANY of the laws of the day? Doesn't that make her sinfull? Not only that, but if she DID obey the laws, then she was being deceitfull. Even Jesus followed the 10 commandments, but he never had to have a sin atonment. Wouldn't someone wonder WHY Mary never had to do anything? Wouldn't that have been made a BIG deal, and certainly, it would have made it into the bible? If she was sinless, then why doesn't they bible come right out and say that?
Chris,

Mary was an observant Jew. She was a good Jew. She was an obedient Jew. She was raised and taught Judaism and practiced and observed her faith because this is how one loved, served, and obeyed their God.

She also was profoundly humble, probably why the bible does not come out and say all that Mary was/is. It is because of something called humility.

Why don’t you take what is said about her in the bible and mediate on it. Consider all the things scripture does say she did and you will find a sinless women in there if you know how to look. Mary was very humble, so you will have to look deep.
 
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BigChrisfilm

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Benedicta00 said:
Chris,

Mary was an observant Jew. She was a good Jew. She was an obedient Jew. She was raised and taught Judaism and practiced and observed her faith because this is how one loved, served, and obeyed their God.

She also was profoundly humble, probably why the bible does not come out and say all that Mary was/is. It is because of something called humility.

Why don’t you take what is said about her in the bible and mediate on it. Consider all the things scripture does say she did and you will find a sinless women in there if you know how to look. Mary was very humble, so you will have to look deep.

You mean I need to think about it long and hard. Then after awhile, I will have brainwashed myself into thinking something that isn't in scripture? The last thing I need to do is sit and ponder on something, if you knew the true capability of man to corrupt, twist and turn, and add to scripture with man's greatest idol (the mind) you would know that I can't trust myself on anything.
 
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Jig

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Benedicta00 said:
Chris,

Mary was an observant Jew. She was a good Jew. She was an obedient Jew. She was raised and taught Judaism and practiced and observed her faith because this is how one loved, served, and obeyed their God.

She also was profoundly humble, probably why the bible does not come out and say all that Mary was/is. It is because of something called humility.

Why don’t you take what is said about her in the bible and mediate on it. Consider all the things scripture does say she did and you will find a sinless women in there if you know how to look. Mary was very humble, so you will have to look deep.

I can say the same about John the Baptist. Surely, the RCC doesn't see him as being sinless. No? Yet, we see him in the same light as Mary is within Scriptural evidences of "sinless" lifestyle and godliness.
 
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Benedicta00

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BigChrisfilm said:
Really, I thought it was just the Roman Catholics. Who else believes that?
Chris,

You do have so much to learn about the history of Christianity. It's only been in the last 100 or so years we see this departure, degradation and denial of Mary.

Read below carefully. It's the reformers speaking about Mary. Quotes taken from various published works of theirs.

When they broke from the Church, it wasn’t over Marian doctrine but rather extream Marian devotion.


THE PROTESTANT REFORMERS ON MARY

When Fundamentalists study the writings of the Reformers on Mary, the Mother of Jesus, they will find that the Reformers accepted almost every major Marian doctrine and considered these doctrines to be both scriptural and fundamental to the historic Christian Faith.

Martin Luther:

Mary the Mother of God

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."1

Perpetual Virginity

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."2

The Immaculate Conception

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."3

Assumption

Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."4

Honor to Mary

Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."5

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing."6 Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.

John Calvin: It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."7

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ."8 Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."9

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."10

Ulrich Zwingli:

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."12 Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."13

"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."14

"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."15

"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."16

We might wonder why the Marian affirmations of the Reformers did not survive in the teaching of their heirs - particularly the Fundamentalists. This break with the past did not come through any new discovery or revelation. The Reformers themselves (see above) took a benign even positive view of Marian doctrine - although they did reject Marian mediation because of their rejection of all human mediation.

Moreover, while there were some excesses in popular Marian piety, Marian doctrine as taught in the pre-Reformation era drew its inspiration from the witness of Scripture and was rooted in Christology. The real reason for the break with the past must be attributed to the iconoclastic passion of the followers of the Reformation and the consequences of some Reformation principles. Even more influential in the break with Mary was the influence of the Enlightenment Era which essentially questioned or denied the mysteries of faith.

Unfortunately the Marian teachings and preachings of the Reformers have been "covered up" by their most zealous followers - with damaging theological and practical consequences. This "cover-up" can be detected even in Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspective, an Evangelical critique of Mariology. One of the contributors admits that "Most remarkable to modern Protestants is the Reformers' almost universal acceptance of Mary's continuing virginity, and their widespread reluctance to declare Mary a sinner". He then asks if it is "a favourable providence" that kept these Marian teachings of the Reformers from being "transmitted to the Protestant churches"!17
What is interpreted as "Providence" by a Marian critic may legitimately be interpreted as a force of a very different kind by a Christian who has recognized the role of Mary in God’s plan.
NOTES
1 Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis], volume 24, 107.
2 Martin Luther, op. cit., Volume 11, 319-320.
3 Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works,
English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St.
Louis], Volume 4, 694.
4 [Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works (Translation by William J. Cole) 10, p. 268.
5 [Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works
(Translation by William J. Cole) 10, III, p.313.
6 Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis], Volume 51, 128-129.
7 John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 35.
8 Bernard Leeming, "Protestants and Our Lady", Marian Library Studies, January 1967, p.9.
9 John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 348.
10 John Calvin, A Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke (St. Andrew's Press, Edinburgh, 1972), p.32.
11 Ulrich Zwingli, In Evang. Luc., Opera Completa [Zurich, 1828-42], Volume 6, I, 639
12 Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 424.
13 E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.
14 Ibid.
15 Ibid.
16 Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 427-428.
17 David F. Wright, ed., Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspective (London: Marshall Pickering, 1989), 180.
 
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Jig

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Benedicta00 said:
Chris,

You do have so much to learn about the history of Christianity. It's only been in the last 100 or so years we see this departure, degradation and denial of Mary.

Read below carefully. It's the reformers speaking about Mary. Quotes taken from various published works of theirs.

When they broke from the Church, it wasn’t over Marian doctrine but rather extream Marian devotion.


THE PROTESTANT REFORMERS ON MARY

I'm non-denominational. I'm not interested in what other fallable people had to say. That does not prove your position right or wrong and seems unwarranted.

Denial of Mary? You seem to have the same position towards our intentions as thereselittleflower does...

I will repeat what I told her:
---
You try to turn these debates around and make it seem like we are attacking Mary. I don't think negativly about Mary. All I am debating (or what you call attacking) is specific doctrine I'm having trouble grasping. We are to test such doctrines and see if the hold water when compared to Scripture.

Please, do not think or say I'm attacking Mary. I am not. I respect Mary, I feel she would not want to be placed on such a high pedistool. She was humble and would have hated that some Christians are directing a lot of their prayers and attention towards her and not her Son.

Your religious institution's doctrines have failed every test, and in my opinion (and I'm allowed to have one) Catholics have elevated Mary to a position she is not in or would wish to be in.
 
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Benedicta00

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Jig said:
I can say the same about John the Baptist. Surely, the RCC doesn't see him as being sinless. No? Yet, we see him in the same light as Mary is within Scriptural evidences of "sinless" lifestyle and godliness.
Jig,

Please see my post above. This Mary denial stuff is new invention of the 21st century.

But to address John the Baptist, Jesus did say none was greater. He lived like a true believer ought.


But he wasn’t conceived born sinless but he was sanctified in his mother’s womb. When? When he leaped for joy at the sound of Mary’s voice.
 
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Benedicta00

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Jig said:
I'm non-denominational. I'm not interested in what other fallable people had to say. That does not prove your position right or wrong and seems unwarranted.

Denial of Mary? You seem to have the same position towards our intentions as thereselittleflower does...

I will repeat what I told her:
---
You try to turn these debates around and make it seem like we are attacking Mary. I don't think negativly about Mary. All I am debating (or what you call attacking) is specific doctrine I'm having trouble grasping. We are to test such doctrines and see if the hold water when compared to Scripture.

Please, do not think or say I'm attacking Mary. I am not. I respect Mary, I feel she would not want to be placed on such a high pedistool. She was humble and would have hated that some Christians are directing a lot of their prayers and attention towards her and not her Son.

Your religious institution's doctrines have failed every test, and in my opinion (and I'm allowed to have one) Catholics have elevated Mary to a position she is not in or would wish to be in.


Never said anyone was attacking her. What are you talking about?

I said this denying and degrading her dogmas is not something that was done in the early reformed churches.

Historically speaking, any intellectually honest person can not deny that only recently there has been a departure from Marian teaching.

You say you do not listen to fallible men? Then why are you a sola scripturist? That’s a man made doctrine.
 
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Jig

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Benedicta00 said:
But to address John the Baptist, Jesus did say none was greater. He lived like a true believer ought.

None, greater? Surely, he was lesser than Mary, if she was truely sinless. Why would Jesus say this?:p
 
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aboutface

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I dunno. I thought Christianity was about Christ? Where do we get off thinking that other people were or are "sinless". If Mary was sinless then she would have been the one to die for the salvation of all, not her first born child, who by the way was conceived in a sinless manner. Scripture don't tell us Mary was born of no human father does it!! It does tell us that Jesus had no man for a genetic father, but instead was begotten by the Holy Spirit. This, and only this breaks the flesh tie to Adam, which condemns all others to being "born into sin". Come-on guys start reading your bible.Ask the Holy Spirit to open your mind to His Written Word. Don't just keep looking at what others say the bible says.
I once knew a guy who told me the bible wasn't worth reading. How do you know I asked him a little incredulously. Oh he said that is easy I read 50 other writers who all said it wasn't worth reading so of course it can't be.

Just another thought.
If one person says something foolish it is a foolish thing.
IF 2 million people say something foolish, it is still a foolish thing.
 
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Jig

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Benedicta00 said:
Never said anyone was attacking her. What are you talking about?

I told you I was merely copying what I said to thereselittleflower, surely you could distinguish what she said against what you've said.

I said this denying and degrading her dogmas is not something that was done in the early reformed churches.

Yet, you comment on this "denial of Mary" in a negitive tone, as if trying to say I (and others) are disrespecting her. If you can't see my position clearly after my last post, then you may want to reconsider how you conduct this debate with me. You'd be assuming my intentions and true stance.

Historically speaking, any intellectually honest person can not deny that only recently there has been a departure from Marian teaching.

Your lucky I see what you see in history or you'd be calling me stupid and ignorant. That would be quite rude.

You say you do not listen to fallible men? Then why are you a sola scripturist? That’s a man made doctrine.

Hmmm...you end your rebuttal with an uncalled for attack? I guess you assumed I believe in Sola Scriptura?

As for your claim, this is not the thread to discuss it.
 
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Benedicta00

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aboutface said:
I dunno. I thought Christianity was about Christ? Where do we get off thinking that other people were or are "sinless". If Mary was sinless then she would have been the one to die for the salvation of all, not her first born child, who by the way was conceived in a sinless manner. Scripture don't tell us Mary was born of no human father does it!! It does tell us that Jesus had no man for a genetic father, but instead was begotten by the Holy Spirit. This, and only this breaks the flesh tie to Adam, which condemns all others to being "born into sin". Come-on guys start reading your bible.Ask the Holy Spirit to open your mind to His Written Word. Don't just keep looking at what others say the bible says.
I once knew a guy who told me the bible wasn't worth reading. How do you know I asked him a little incredulously. Oh he said that is easy I read 50 other writers who all said it wasn't worth reading so of course it can't be.

Just another thought.
If one person says something foolish it is a foolish thing.
IF 2 million people say something foolish, it is still a foolish thing.

The bible does not state it explicitly but it does implicitly state it in a number of ways. See Genesis 3: 15 and read Luke and Mary at the foot of the cross. She certainly did not have the behavior of someone with sin.

These things do not point a finger towards sinfulness but rather paint a picture of sinlessness instead.

But… why are you assuming the sinlessness of Mary takes away from Christ and makes her the center? I don’t understand?

And to address some really bad error about what the Immaculate Conception is. Her parents didn’t have to be nor where they sinless also. God saved Mary at her conception the same way he saves us when we are “born again,” by applying Christ merits to her. He just did it for he in advance, her at conception before she was born into this world and he does it for us after we have been born into this world.
 
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Benedicta00

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Jig said:
I told you I was merely copying what I said to thereselittleflower, surely you could distinguish what she said against what you've said.



Yet, you comment on this "denial of Mary" in a negitive tone, as if trying to say I (and others) are disrespecting her. If you can't see my position clearly after my last post, then you may want to reconsider how you conduct this debate with me. You'd be assuming my intentions and true stance.



Your lucky I see what you see in history or you'd be calling me stupid and ignorant. That would be quite rude.



Hmmm...you end your rebuttal with an uncalled for attack? I guess you assumed I believe in Sola Scriptura?

As for your claim, this is not the thread to discuss it.
I’m going to pass on your posts from now on because you are taking offense and reading offense where there is none.
 
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JJB

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Non-RCC can love Mary without making her out to be a sinless perpetual virgin who is Queen of Heaven, co-redeemer, dispenser of all grace, etc.

Mary herself refers to her need for a Savior (Luke 1:47), and she's sometimes rebuked by Jesus (Luke 2:48-50, John 2:3-4). Not only do we see Jesus rebuking Mary in scripture, but we also see Mary distrusting Jesus and suggesting that He did something wrong (Luke 2:41-50).
She was anxious about Him, and she asks, "Son, why have you treated us this way?" (verse 48). When Jesus explains that He had to be in His Father's house, Mary doesn't even understand so simple a statement (verse 50).

Have you got a site for the early reformers? I'm assuming it came from either a website that is RCC or an RCC book.
 
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aboutface

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I say again if one person says something foolish then it is a foolish thing.
If 2 million people say something foolish then it is still a fooloish thing.
Whom did Jesus, whom I guess all of us acknowledge as God, pray to?
How did HE direct His disciples and therefore implicitly and explicitly us to pray?
As to the virgin birth... That was Jesus not Mary, who very soon after giving birth to Jesus stopped being a virgin.
I would hesitate to say that anyone other than Jesus was sinless. The bible only says Jesus was without sin.
Yes Abraham was credited with righteousness, and so were a few others. Mary was not sinless at her birth. No human baby, begotten by the normal means of conjoining of sperm and egg neither can nor ever has been born sinless. Every new born baby (apart from Jesus) is a sinner. There are no innocents.
You, me, Mary, Joseph, Paul, Stephen Hawking, Pope John, we all need Christ as our saviour. Church dogma is not scripture. Scritpure is scripture. Read that carefully.
Read carefully. It is Christ who has the power and authority of God, no-one else.
 
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BigChrisfilm

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First of all. The Roman Catholic church WAS NOT the first church. It wasn't created until hundreds of years AFTER Christ died. The true bible believers were around, before, during, and after the Roman Catholics.
 
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