If Mary was sinless?

[Davidnic]

My hope is that you realize that what we offer to God in prayer is not what we offer to anyone else. We offer worship to God through praying to God, we only and just pray to (ask) the saints.

Alot of the misunderstanding comes from the use of the word pray. We don't give praise or worship that is for God alone to Mary or the saints, we venerate them as Holy. But we say pray because it is the best word we have to describe talking to someone who is now with God. Put prayer in this case is not worship. Prayer can be many things. The problem is these terms did not originate in English.

In the greek it would be Dulia (veneration and recognition of the Holy in another created being, holiness that comes from their cooperation with God and His grace. That nature is from God and is in the end a praise of God alone through His love and mercy to our great examples) given to Mary and the Saints.

But Latria (Worship) is for God alone. A term Hyperdulia is sometimes used for Mary because she is greater than all of the other saints.

There are many prayers to Jesus Himself, we believe that He loves and hears us with no go-between.

If you look at the Hail Mary prayer:

Hail Mary, full of Grace the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God. Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen

That is just two quotes from Scripture (From the Angel Gabriel and Elizabeth) and then asking her to pray for us, as you might ask a good friend or your own mother. since we beleive that just because someone is dead they are not cut off from the Body of Christ. But all of those who love Him are united in life and death through Him, with Him and in Him.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

 

[Benedicta00]

Many do. Read on...

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We pray to her, not worship her through prayer.

Bro, The Hail Mary prayer is scripture, verbatim almost, surely you do not object to praying with scripture?

This is something that has always left me scratching my head. I can remember years and years ago my sister telling me how wrong Catholics were for saying the Our Father and the Hail Mary but going on to say how we can only draw our practices from the bible only.

Well the Hail Mary and the Our Father is doing just that. They are quit biblical indeed.

I truly do not understand the objection of reciting a prayer from the bible.

 

[Benedicta00]

Alot of the misunderstanding comes from the use of the word pray. We don't give praise or worship that is for God alone to Mary or the saints, we venerate them as Holy. But we say pray because it is the best word we have to describe talking to someone who is now with God. Put prayer in this case is not worship. Prayer can be many things. The problem is these terms did not originate in English.

In the greek it would be Dulia (veneration and recognition of the Holy in another created being, holiness that comes from their cooperation with God and His grace. That nature is from God and is in the end a praise of God alone through His love and mercy to our great examples) given to Mary and the Saints.

But Latria (Worship) is for God alone. A term Hyperdulia is sometimes used for Mary because she is greater than all of the other saints.

There are many prayers to Jesus Himself, we believe that He loves and hears us with no go-between.

If you look at the Hail Mary prayer:

Hail Mary, full of Grace the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God. Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen

That is just two quotes from Scripture (From the Angel Gabriel and Elizabeth) and then asking her to pray for us, as you might ask a good friend or your own mother. since we beleive that just because someone is dead they are not cut off from the Body of Christ. But all of those who love Him are united in life and death through Him, with Him and in Him.

I know… it’s sad. Its almost as if language is a lost art now days, over the last 100 years or so. I would use AT&T to ask them to pray for me if it work, but it doesn’t so I must "pray."

It’s sad isn’t it? That a break down in communication over the use of certain words leaves others feeling as if Catholics do not worship God alone.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I don't communicate with my grandma in Heaven. Jesus is the one I pray to.

I ususally state it as physically dead or phsycially alive. I don't communicate with the physically dead. I do pray to God in the name of Jesus christ, and am assured it is heard because of the Holy Spirit who is omnisicent. The spirits of the physically dead saints are not omniscient and cannot hear our prayer.

If one doesn't specify "physically dead", the inevitable arguement is that the saints who have died are not dead spiritually. It is playing with semantics, IMHO.

 

[Lynn73]

I ususally state it as physically dead or phsycially alive. I don't communicate with the physically dead. I do pray to God in the name of Jesus christ, and am assured it is heard because of the Holy Spirit who is omnisicent. The spirits of the physically dead saints are not omniscient and cannot hear our prayer.

If one doesn't specify "physically dead", the inevitable arguement is that the saints who have died are not dead spiritually. It is playing with semantics, IMHO.

You're right. And nowhere in Scripture is there any evidence for praying to or asking prayer of the physcially dead. People can do it if they want, of course.

 

[Lynn73]

Slamming is in the eye of the beholder. We do NOT slam the humble Mary of Scripture. What we "slam", as JJB aludes to above, is the Catholic's distorted view of her. That's what I think the "objectional post" was trying to get across.

 

[Metanoia02]

Slamming is in the eye of the beholder. We do NOT slam the humble Mary of Scripture. What we "slam", as JJB aludes to above, is the Catholic's distorted view of her. That's what I think the "objectional post" was trying to get across.

So you are slamming Catholics who pray the rosary becuase you think they have a distorted view of Mary?

 

[Lynn73]

So you are slamming Catholics who pray the rosary becuase you think they have a distorted view of Mary?

I'm not slamming anyone and I didn't say anything about the rosary. And I do think that the Catholic doctrine about Mary is distorted and unbiblical, yes. I said what we "slam" is the Catholic's distorted view of her. Take note: the slam is against the distorted view, not individual Catholics. Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Metanoia02]

I'm not slamming anyone and I didn't say anything about the rosary. And I do think that the Catholic doctrine about Mary is distorted and unbiblical, yes. I said what we "slam" is the Catholic's distorted view of her. Take note: the slam is against the distorted view, not individual Catholics. Please don't put words in my mouth.

When you jump in and say "we" you might want to mafe sure you know what you are including yourself in. The orginal statement said that the resaon Catholic have repeat tthemselves so many times in thier prayers to Mary is because she has trouble hearing us. That is a reference to the Rosary. Iti s more then my views, it is part of my faith you are slamming. I would think you might be a bit more sensetive when slamming someones faith.

 

[icedtea]

The spirits of the physically dead saints are not omniscient and cannot hear our prayer.

Exactly my point!
The bible condemns communicating with the dead, mediums, etc.
Mary, and all saints are dead. We cannot communicate with them while we are on earth and they in Heaven.
That is condemned by God.
Even John Edward is a fake and people realize that. Its the same thing, if he were authentic.

 

[icedtea]

And even if Mary and grandma can hear us, they sure can't do anything about it.

 

[Lynn73]

How do you want me to say that I disagree with Catholicism's view of Mary? And don't Catholics slam Protestant's faith? Is is possible you're being a bit too sensitive? After all, I've been referred to as a heretic and it's inferred over and over that those of us that disagree with the Catholic view of the Eucharist have no life in us. How would you like to be told you have no life in you. I'm sorry if my views of Catholicism and it's views on Mary disturb you but I can't change them to suit. Catholics don't mince words usually when they talk about Protestants and what we believe so why do we have to walk on eggshells around you? I respect your right to believe as you wish but I have an opinion on those beliefs just as you have an opinion on mine. And what did I say that was so horrible? I said that the Catholics' view of Mary is distorted. And I believe it is so why can't I state it when CAtholics are free to say what they choose about what Protestants believe?

 

[Davidnic]

I have an honest question for non-Catholics here. I know we don't agree on the issues of the dead hearing us and intercessory prayer in that fashion. I made a post earlier trying to get some unity on what we could share as common truths. Those generally don't go over well in these conversations.

But you do realize that it is not required. A Catholic can decide not to pray to the saints and still be Catholic. The church does not say that it is necessary to do so.

I realize that this is more about our view of the theology in general, I was just wondering if people thought Catholics had to pray to saints.

 

[icedtea]

Keep on keeping on, Lynn. I love how Catholics say when someone joins their church, they've "come home to the church."

Thats a direct slam to non catholic christians. As if we are not home, not quite right with the Lord.
Try seeing it from others points of views, people.

 

[Lynn73]

No, I think I've heard before that Catholics don't have to pray to saints.

 

[Davidnic]

Do some catholics take devotion to mary too far and into supersition and view it wrongly. Yes.

Do some non-catholics take opposing the marian facets of catholic faith too far and not give enough credit to Mary. Yes.

But the important word above is some. Some people doing it does not make it the view of either group as a whole.

But catholics don't worship mary. And non-catholics do not hate her.

Can we all agree that, no matter what else we believe: That Mary was special. The she did not need the new testament, to see Christ or to hear Him, to believe and accept Him. She just accepted God's will. She and Joseph followed the will of God in ways that are beautiful and special. In ways that make them worthy examples to follow in how they accept and lead to Christ. And that is the heart of marian devotion. To lead to Christ. When catholics put mary above Christ that is not what the church teaches.

We all needed proofs and history. Mary just accepted and loved Him. Both as her Lord and her child. And she followed Him to the foot of the cross in her love. Joseph follwed the will of God and protected and took care of them both.

That is why the Holy family should not be just a model in our family lives, but a model for the dialogue of Christians.

So can we agree that her example is an excellent one to follow, even if we do not agree on other things?

This is some of what I posted back in post #230 (I think).

Since we've gotten way off of the topic of sinless nature, can we look at this and say that most of us. Catholic and Non-catholic can agree with this, or at least the heart of the statement. If not ok. Just trying to get some unity.

 

[Lynn73]

Keep on keeping on, Lynn. I love how Catholics say when someone joins their church, they've "come home to the church."

Thats a direct slam to non catholic christians. As if we are not home, not quite right with the Lord.
Try seeing it from others points of views, people.

Our church is more concerned with people coming to faith in Christ before local church membership. It's "come home to Christ" not "come home to the church" especially since we are the church. Of course, getting saved automatically makes you a member in Christ's universal church.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Where does it say that mary was conceived sinnless, or without original sin.

Hi duane.

I would be happy to, as soon as you demonstrate for me that this is a valid requirement.

You can do so by showing me where it says in the bible that the Holy Spirit is:

1. 1. Co-equal with the Father and the Son
   2. Co-eternal with the Father and the Son
   3. Co-pre-existant with the Father and the Son

When you can show me where it says this in the bible, then I will concede your requirement is valid.

We have been thorugh thi argument before, so it is not new to you.

If you can't show me where it says this about the Hoily Spirit in the Bible, then you are holding me and Catholics to a double standard.

I don't see double standards being a fruit of the Spirit in the bible . . . maybe I missed it?

Show me what you would call, solid Biblical evidence, Scriptures, and verses that say that mary was healed in the womb. Because the spirit is never ever healed. It is quickened, and Born-Again.

duane, the healing of the wounded human nature is what happens when our spirits are quickened. . .

Again, invalid requirement as it is a double standard.

So for Mary to be sinnless, or conceived without original sin, then God would be obligated by His own actions, to quicken everyone else in the world while in the womb.

Why?

I see no evidence that simply because God did it with one, He is obligated to do it with others.

And Mary is a direct descenent of Adam. Luke Chap 3.

So that would make the scripture that says.

I am the way the truth, and the life. Nobody goes to the Father but by me.

A lie.

No, for it is by and through and because of Christ that Mary's wounded human nature was healed, that the stain of Adam's sin was removed.





Yes, it creates a paradox. But who said paradoxes are not valid?

Is God not the Master of space and time? Can He not do with it as He wishes?




Peace

 

[thereselittleflower]

Also when we are healed of a disease or broken bone. We are healed, but we still have the same inner nature. So if our spirit was healed, then we would still have the exact same nature as before. and wouldn't be a new Creature in christ.

Because I still sin, but i don't want to. I don't want to offend or hurt God. But before my spirit was reborn, when I sinned, I could've cared less, because there was no Holy Spirit in me to even want a new nature of repentence. So to enter the Kingdom of heaven, my spirit must be reborn, and covered by the blood. And the only way to be reborn, is by the accepted gift of Salvation, given by God's Grace. So to be born-again, and to partake in the last will and testament of Jesus. The testator ( Jesus) had to die.

Because a testament of last will, cannot be dispersed until the testator dies.

Why do you think we are talking about Mary's spirit being healed?


We are talking about her HUMAN NATURE . . we are equating the healing of the human nature with being born again. Which is what you just did above.

It seems you are contradicting your ownself here duane. ...



Peace