If Man progresses to monkey, why is he not good at monkey things? At least partly??

[Gottservant]

Hi there,

So it could be that I am ham-fisting this: but cognitive tests of monkeys have shown that their cognition is a lot faster than ours, for explicit challenges that don't require greater and greater cognitive strength - remembering sequences of numbers, that sort of thing.

Then you have the question of a gorilla being able to snap a human being like a twig, if he wanted to - not that I am saying that that is intelligent, but on a practical level, if survival of the fittest were the only rule, humans would never get past page one (for the sake of a genome that passed the physical strength test).

The thing is, I don't see mankind mastering strengths that are the sole purview of a monkey; it's like we have come to the point that we think of ourselves (some of us,anyway) as superior to apes, but not in the vein that we have anything more to learn from them, such that the better difference will be won by devotion to our origin (if you can call it that) - I know, I know, some scientists that study biology and some green activists want to save the orangutan from extinction, but at the same time they want to stop Japanese whaling, but they don't see the connection (between proposing monkeys were our ancestors, but that everything else is just there for food).

What do you think? Is it a test of character to put up with people who think we go from ape to mate? Or is there a lesson God would have us learn first? That people who hurl themselves into the seas of unreason are best mourned?

I just don't see men learning from animals, what they claim to?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What do you think? Is it a test of character to put up with people who think we go from ape to mate? Or is there a lesson God would have us learn first? That people who hurl themselves into the seas of unreason are best mourned?

I just don't see men learning from animals, what they claim to?

Who puts up with anyone who thinks we go from ape to mate ?
Jesus never did, and Ekklesia today don't have to.
The lesson from Yahweh (God) - do as His Word Says, as His Spirit leads.
We hear the voice of the shepherd and follow Him, we won't follow another.

Mourn? Perhaps rhetorical? Even Yahweh is saddened when a wicked man dies.

 

[Gottservant]

Who puts up with anyone who thinks we go from ape to mate ?
Jesus never did, and Ekklesia today don't have to.
The lesson from Yahweh (God) - do as His Word Says, as His Spirit leads.
We hear the voice of the shepherd and follow Him, we won't follow another.

Mourn? Perhaps rhetorical? Even Yahweh is saddened when a wicked man dies.

That was a tremendous reply.

Yes, Yahweh weeps over the fallen Evolutionist.

 

[expos4ever]

Then you have the question of a gorilla being able to snap a human being like a twig, if he wanted to - not that I am saying that that is intelligent, but on a practical level, if survival of the fittest were the only rule, humans would never get past page one (for the sake of a genome that passed the physical strength test).

I don't follow your reasoning. Please understand that "fitness" has really nothing to do with strength per se. An organism can function well in its environment without being physically strong. And many do, I believe.

 

[expos4ever]

I am sorry, but I cannot distill the basic point of the original post; can you please clarify?

 

[Gottservant]

We should be learning from monkeys

if we believe they were they were our ancestors

actually what we find is that they have specified skills that out-play our own

(in another sense you could say: "Why aren't monkeys trying to learn from fish in the sea - if they can see we have an advantage they don't?"

 

[Gottservant]

I don't follow your reasoning. Please understand that "fitness" has really nothing to do with strength per se. An organism can function well in its environment without being physically strong. And many do, I believe.

A female mate is able to distinguish particular strengths in her partner she would like to mate with, what are you saying it has nothing to do with strength for?

 

[PloverWing]

Then you have the question of a gorilla being able to snap a human being like a twig, if he wanted to - not that I am saying that that is intelligent, but on a practical level, if survival of the fittest were the only rule, humans would never get past page one (for the sake of a genome that passed the physical strength test).

There are many different ways to be well-adapted ("fittest") to one's environment. Some primates are stronger than humans, or are better climbers, or both, and that helps them be well-adapted to their environments. Humans are intelligent enough to build tools, and that helps us to survive in a variety of environments. Other animals (not primates) have features like flight or speed or excellent swimming that give them advantages in their environments.

You seem to be expecting humans to turn into gorillas over time, or vice versa. That's not what evolution does. All currently existing species are well-adapted to their environments, which is why they are able to continue to exist.

 

[expos4ever]

We should be learning from monkeys

if we believe they were they were our ancestors

I am not that knowledgeable about evolution, but I believe the theory does not claim that monkeys were our ancestors, but rather that both monkeys and humans have a common ancestor.

(in another sense you could say: "Why aren't monkeys trying to learn from fish in the sea - if they can see we have an advantage they don't?"

You appear to think that it is a mystery that we don't try to learn from animals. Well, I am not sure that is really true - surely there are scientists busy at work on stuff like this. But let's say that we are not attempting to learn from animals. Just as monkeys certainly don't seem to be trying to learn from fish. So what? Why is this so mysterious to you? There are a myriad of ways in which humans - and other species - fail to take paths to knowledge that are open to them.

 

[Gottservant]

You are right, it depends on the niche a species occupies.

That being the case, are humans evolving more or less, with the niche being almost the head of all nature?

 

[expos4ever]

A female mate is able to distinguish particular strengths in her partner she would like to mate with, what are you saying it has nothing to do with strength for?

I didn't say that the selections of a human female have nothing to do with strength, although I was not as clear as I could have been. What I meant to say is that while strength can contribute to "fitness", it need not necessarily do so.

At the risk of seeming to patronize, I will point out that "fitness" in the evolutionary sense is not really the same concept as "fitness" in the sense of a goal you go to the gym to pursue. In evolution, fitness denotes the degree to which an organism has the right characteristics to pass on its genes. One of these properties can be physical strength (as it almost surely is with humans). But for other organisms (e.g. bacteria), physical strength has nothing to do with it.

 

[expos4ever]

You are right, it depends on the niche a species occupies.

That being the case, are humans evolving more or less, with the niche being almost the head of all nature?

Great question. I believe the answer that comes most easily to mind is that humans are evolving "less" now than before. However, I recall a compelling argument to the contrary. Can't remember it, or its originator.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yahweh weeps.

You are right, it depends on the niche a species occupies.

That being the case, are humans evolving more or less, with the niche being almost the head of all nature?

 

[Sparagmos]

We should be learning from monkeys

if we believe they were they were our ancestors

actually what we find is that they have specified skills that out-play our own

(in another sense you could say: "Why aren't monkeys trying to learn from fish in the sea - if they can see we have an advantage they don't?"

What does learning have to do with the point you are raising? I don’t understand.

 

[Sparagmos]

A female mate is able to distinguish particular strengths in her partner she would like to mate with, what are you saying it has nothing to do with strength for?

Strength is not as important for human survival in our environment.

 

[Gottservant]

What does learning have to do with the point you are raising? I don’t understand.

It says "learning has value"

A teacher knows what value "it" has

A teacher knowing he is from "an ape", is compelled to seek inspiration from the ape

(But when Jesus returns to restore righteousness to its lawful place, the ape in question will be the last thing on His Mind - thus making Him the least likely to seek out that inspiration)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

A teacher knowing he is from "an ape", is compelled to seek inspiration from the ape

And a man who knows Yahweh Created Him, if He is Redeemed knows He is going to be resurrected to eternal life, never to die again.

Let's not monkey around with Yahweh's Word, Plan and Purpose, eh!

 

[Sparagmos]

It says "learning has value"

A teacher knows what value "it" has

A teacher knowing he is from "an ape", is compelled to seek inspiration from the ape

(But when Jesus returns to restore righteousness to its lawful place, the ape in question will be the last thing on His Mind - thus making Him the least likely to seek out that inspiration)

What is “it?”

Why woukd being descendants of apes mean we should learn from them?

 

[Gottservant]

And a man who knows Yahweh Created Him, if He is Redeemed knows He is going to be resurrected to eternal life, never to die again.

Let's not monkey around with Yahweh's Word, Plan and Purpose, eh!

True.

I think what it is that I am struggling with, is that I am cast as guilty for Evolution that others could have had, were it not for me...

I am guilty, proxy an interpretation of Evolution that leaves no real room for "scientific 'repentance'" - those words don't even really go together.

Somehow I need to make confessing Evolutionary sin a regular mainstay of the rest of my life - or I will reek of the sin, that leaving sin unconfessed brings.

 

[Gottservant]

What is “it?”

Why woukd being descendants of apes mean we should learn from them?

You are descendant of your parents,

and you learn from them?

What is that in terms of "Evolution"??