If Love Is

[Wagonmaker]

I have equated love of God with trust and obedience, conformity. It is my yardstick of my growth or lack of growth in some cases (sticking points).

Sounds reasonable. Bless you!

 

[Phantasman]

Agreed 100%. Further, if love must have an opposite (referring to my previous responses on this thread), I would say it is fear, not hate. Hate is a form of fear. Fear, of course, is ultimately just as much an illusion as evil. God is. And all he made was good. Everything else is a distortion (ignorance).

Fear can be a good thing. To fear Gods punishment (or wrath) is healthy to those who know the Lord. Jesus spoke much on what must be done to avoid being punished by using fear.

It is when ignorance produces actions away from love, that sin becomes evident. We can hate sin. So hate is not sinful as an action, but where it is used. But things like greed, self adoration, pursuits of materialism, selfishness, satisfaction of self, etc, these are the mechanisms that drive the mind to sin while the spirit is left in the shadows, crying to be heard, but overcome by the "false euphoria" one feels as they continue down this path.

Most times, it is only when one "loses all", wind up in prison, or may be on their death bed and realizes that they cannot amass anything more, that they may hear their spirit. Many will say that there is a way to enjoy the "euphoric" feeling of "pursuit of materialism" and be sinless as well. I disagree, and I see many churches (TV evangelists especially) doing this, and enjoying the high life. Be so very careful.

 

[Wagonmaker]

Fear can be a good thing. To fear Gods punishment (or wrath) is healthy to those who know the Lord. Jesus spoke much on what must be done to avoid being punished by using fear.

It is when ignorance produces actions away from love, that sin becomes evident. We can hate sin. So hate is not sinful as an action, but where it is used. But things like greed, self adoration, pursuits of materialism, selfishness, satisfaction of self, etc, these are the mechanisms that drive the mind to sin while the spirit is left in the shadows, crying to be heard, but overcome by the "false euphoria" one feels as they continue down this path.

Most times, it is only when one "loses all", wind up in prison, or may be on their death bed and realizes that they cannot amass anything more, that they may hear their spirit. Many will say that there is a way to enjoy the "euphoric" feeling of "pursuit of materialism" and be sinless as well. I disagree, and I see many churches (TV evangelists especially) doing this, and enjoying the high life. Be so very careful.

The context of the word "fear" is important, just as the word love can have so many connotations.

In the Bible, the fear of God is not the same thing as a fear or anxiety over the particulars of life. The fear of God is holy reverence. The fear of worldly matters is a mistrust or ignorance of God's sovereignty and love.

Luke 12:4-5 draws the distinction between the two when Jesus says, "I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!"

The irony here is that if you look earlier in the chapter, he is referring not just to those who might kill the body but specifically to the religious establishment. There is a difference, therefore, in fearing what might happen if you don't behave properly versus true godliness, which is a matter of the heart.

 

[dennis1777]

Interestingly enough the fear of God, although I don't think it should rule our life, is a sign of faith. So there is something to be said about it. And also take a look at the early martyrs. The authorities that be had power over them and threatened torture and/or death. The message there was not fear them because they could only destroy our tent of flesh but not the soul. And the martyrs were Saints and valued the Word and their souls more. In fact I would say there love and trust transcended the fear of mortal suffering which most shirk away from. Not that they were actually afraid or scared of God.

 

[timewerx]

Bro, with all due respect, you are in grave error. If you want to improve your relationship with others (a perfect avenue to a closer walk with God) you should repent from the hate in your heart toward other human beings (that you don't even detect at this moment), take stock of your own depraved heart, and open your eyes to the Light and Love of the real Jesus Christ right in front of you.

We all have Pharisee tendencies to one degree or another, but I'm just cautioning you that you may be nothing more than a white-washed sepulchre, pristine on the outside and full of rot and death on the inside.

We don't like Pharisees now because we read them in the Gospels they are the protagonists in the 'story'.

However, if you read carefully the Gospels, you will see that people respected and adored the Pharisees. People speak highly of them.

Obviously, they had to be nice and sweet to everyone and had good relationship to others.

Seems like you want me to a bit more like the Pharisees? Pharisees who can't hurt a fly, can't overturn the tables of traders in the Temple??

 

[timewerx]

What you said is that people prefer deception over acceptance, which is the reason people are deceived by deception.

Exactly

 

[Noxot]

can't overturn the tables of traders in the Temple??

i doubt you will believe me even though I know it is true, but Jesus Christ does not literally provoke people in that way. that was a story that is to be understood in a spiritual manner. to be humble means to not do that kind of event in a literal way. to be humble is to not think you understand the bible, this is the trap that most people fall into, and we are in a spiritual process of getting out of such mindsets. but only the ones more mature in Christ can discern good from evil. the righteousness of men is not the righteousness of God and there are many things written in the bible that are hard to understand that carnal men will naturally twist to their own animal views but Christ is not crude in his doings. the soul of man can be attached to the animal nature of man, or he can be attached to the Spirit of God.

to hate your own soul is what Christ ask of us and to pick up your cross and follow him. it is very hard to stop being yourself, you have to forsake everything and if you are doing that then you will quickly learn who God is and you will have faith and you will learn things that no man knows, for the carnal man cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

it is the multitude of men that preach a God that condemns people to hell, do you really think the multitude has it right? kind of weird how your beliefs are just like everyone elses! whatever happened to "the whole world is deceived"? it seems to me that most Christians believe in a literal hell, why exactly do you run along the wide road with the rest of them if you claim you are a follower of Christ and have forsaken much to be with Him? how exactly is your soul cast away when it looks like the world? where exactly, is your bowels of mercy? where is your melted heart if you have tasted the Spirit of God? if you have those things of God, tell me how that aligns up with a God that hates people more than even the most wicked of men. you want rebuke? there you go! I turned the tables over best I could! beware the leaven of the Pharisees, it is a wicked malice! Christ was constantly turning over the money changing tables of the hypocrites, never once did he give up and stop being who he is.

 

[timewerx]

it is the multitude of men that preach a God that condemns people to hell, do you really think the multitude has it right? kind of weird how your beliefs are just like everyone elses! whatever happened to "the whole world is deceived"? it seems to me that most Christians believe in a literal hell, why exactly do you run along the wide road with the rest of them if you claim you are a follower of Christ and have forsaken much to be with Him?

I don't remember saying I believe in the mainstream theory of Hell (literal hell). I'm still uncertain in the mainstream theory of eternal torment. You can scan my historical posts and see for yourself.

What led you to accuse me of such?

What is your belief of Hell then?

 

[Noxot]

I don't remember saying I believe in the mainstream theory of Hell (literal hell). I'm still uncertain in the mainstream theory of eternal torment. You can scan my historical posts and see for yourself.

What led you to accuse me of such?

What is your belief of Hell then?

purification. just like this world is a fire for the saints. everyone gets his just rewards, but to think that justice means obliteration or eternal torture is not justice at all. you reap what you sow, just as the angels help men along in this age, so too for the next the better will help the weaker, and it is all still based on freewill choice. but the justice of God is hard to measure. I see God as sorting all thing according to each creatures freewill and God orders all towards good.

I was just comparing a literal understanding of things and attempting to show how it leads to a wrong understanding about God. i did not know your actual belief in hell but I accuse the flesh of speaking what he ought not since the body does not know God since God is Spirit. it was more the literal-type mindsets that i accuse rather than blaming you for anything. people who tend to read many things according to the letter tend to fall into traps and fall into pits and false doctrines. however it takes faith to believe the things I believe, it takes no faith, but rather a brute and crude understanding of the character of God to believe eternal torments or obliteration since God orders all things to Himself.

i am resisted by most people for teaching that Gods nature is more worthy than the crude understanding that most people have of Him. you would be surprised at how many preachers think i'm a devil for preaching God is love and mercy in accord to His justice rather than submitting to their doctrines which are filthy. I argue it is rather they who use their belly to understand the scriptures, and all i get from them is the same old repeating pattern of "it says plainly right here!" as if the oracles of God are opened up for all to view. it's like they don't even understand what the vail over their heart and mind means. they think simply accepting Christ with a pray is going to remove the vail, but truly you have to hate your soul and pick up your cross and most religious people are not willing to throw away their doctrines. they can't even see that they slander God with their beliefs. and so until this day they have such weak and stupid problems, such as thinking women are not allowed to teach the truth, as if being male or female has anything to do with being spiritual. the letter kills but the spirit gives life.

 

[timewerx]

I sincerely hope your theory on hell is correct not that I agree with it yet nor do I want to risk going to hell.

Just for the sake of loved ones who will not accept the truth despite the best effort.

 

[Noxot]

it is quite easy to believe if you get a better view of God, how overwhelming God is. God loves people far more than we ever can! the justice of men is not the justice of God. we may not love all people like God commands us to but God never fails. I have a bunch of faith in God, the mustard seeds will take over completely soon i believe.

 

[Phantasman]

purification. just like this world is a fire for the saints. everyone gets his just rewards, but to think that justice means obliteration or eternal torture is not justice at all. you reap what you sow, just as the angels help men along in this age, so too for the next the better will help the weaker, and it is all still based on freewill choice. but the justice of God is hard to measure. I see God as sorting all thing according to each creatures freewill and God orders all towards good.

I was just comparing a literal understanding of things and attempting to show how it leads to a wrong understanding about God. i did not know your actual belief in hell but I accuse the flesh of speaking what he ought not since the body does not know God since God is Spirit. it was more the literal-type mindsets that i accuse rather than blaming you for anything. people who tend to read many things according to the letter tend to fall into traps and fall into pits and false doctrines. however it takes faith to believe the things I believe, it takes no faith, but rather a brute and crude understanding of the character of God to believe eternal torments or obliteration since God orders all things to Himself.

i am resisted by most people for teaching that Gods nature is more worthy than the crude understanding that most people have of Him. you would be surprised at how many preachers think i'm a devil for preaching God is love and mercy in accord to His justice rather than submitting to their doctrines which are filthy. I argue it is rather they who use their belly to understand the scriptures, and all i get from them is the same old repeating pattern of "it says plainly right here!" as if the oracles of God are opened up for all to view. it's like they don't even understand what the vail over their heart and mind means. they think simply accepting Christ with a pray is going to remove the vail, but truly you have to hate your soul and pick up your cross and most religious people are not willing to throw away their doctrines. they can't even see that they slander God with their beliefs. and so until this day they have such weak and stupid problems, such as thinking women are not allowed to teach the truth, as if being male or female has anything to do with being spiritual. the letter kills but the spirit gives life.

We understand spirituality the same way. I seem to think that there is a hidden meaning in Jesus saying "let him who has ears, listen". It's like, when you reach a point that there are people that read the scriptures and receive a physical message and it says something. But there is a point you read the same scripture and see the spiritual message. While some say the Holy Spirit gives them the message and they see the same physical message, how are we to know? Or if we say through Gnosis we see the spiritual, are we correct as well? It comes down to ones beliefs, and what they feel.

 

[Noxot]

all men partake of the Logos but not all partake of the Holy Spirit as the saints of God do. the Holy Spirit has knowledge that not even by logos/reason can normal men know.

Gnosis is the Spirit, just as the Spirit is Love and Good and Truth and One ect.

there are evil spirits and there are good spirits and then there is the uncreated Spirit of God which is better than all others. the goal for each one of us is to be united to God and be a good spirit with no defect at all which would mean the lesser part of our being which is the soul/female will not be injured anymore either. the soul seems like the spirits house and the celestial body. the male part of who we are seems to be our spirit.

this quote in galatians shows a spiritual progression. at first there are various spirits over us but in time the female gives birth to a child and we in time grow to a point where we are called sons of God and more grown up in the liberty of the Spirit of Christ where there is no more male nor female. i wish i understood this mystery more... it seems like our spirit is just a baby! and so angels take care and guard our soul until the baby grows up. this transformation seems quite amazing, to become a son of God. and even though we become a freeman we are still servants to those who need it. I kind of wonder what exactly does "jew" means and what did paul mean when he said "greek"! I wonder if he means jew = spirit and greek = soul or if he is attempting to show something else by those 2 words. or if he merely gave 2 different kinds of angelic beings set over people to push them to the fullness of Christ? then when we obtain the fullness there is not any of those things because we are like God more than ever and perhaps even become new kinds of angelic beings, as if a new nation is created from the loins of one child of God... perhaps this is partly what is meant by "new creation" and to more fully grow up in God and Christ. it would be nice to get to a point where we are not subjects of various good spirits but have our own land and kingdom of God.

Gal 3:25-4:7 (YLT)
and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus, for as many as to Christ were baptized did put on Christ; there is not here Jew or Greek, there is not here servant nor freeman, there is not here male and female, for all ye are one in Christ Jesus; and if ye are of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise--heirs. And I say, so long time as the heir is a babe, he differeth nothing from a servant--being lord of all, but is under tutors and stewards till the time appointed of the father, so also we, when we were babes, under the elements of the world were in servitude, and when the fulness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law, that those under law he may redeem, that the adoption of sons we may receive; and because ye are sons, God did send forth the spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, `Abba, Father!' so that thou art no more a servant, but a son, and if a son, also an heir of God through Christ.

how I see the totality of things, the more each one is free the less each one has to be a servant to others, the more people get free, the more we all become free. and one day Christ will deliver the kingdom over to God the Father and Christ will be all in all. and every knee shall bow. for it is displeasing to a wise man to always have to tell people things, he would rather his pupils become wise men themselves. the want of wisdom is like a want of food, in time there will be no more evil, which is lack of love. the fire of God will touch all beings and they shall all willingly submit, and become transformed and inherit all by their own freewill. for there is no such thing as love if you are a robot and so it was worth us suffering the lack of others at times, for love bares all things. the outcome of everything is indeed going to be wonderful imo.

to see the most vile of beings repent and become happy and full of joy, that is going to be wonderful. and that is a true reward for all of us who love one another. we sons of God would go through a trillion worlds if all would see the light and be warmed. we would become subject to vanity for the sake of our little brother. we humans would often die for the sake of our baby brother, how much more would God die for all or do anything to make us safe and better? i'm just happy God does not run out of Himself/Love/mercy/justice/wisdom or we would all be doomed.

a lot of religious people don't think like I think, they prefer and believe that some should forever suffer lack, lack = evil. those types believe salvation is something of gain, something to be bought, even though it is the Gift of God. this is one of the main reasons I preach the letter vs the spirit, I see more plainly than ever the lack men have. eh... and i have lack too, I want to become better so i can help people and not hurt them.

 

[Wagonmaker]

We don't like Pharisees now because we read them in the Gospels they are the protagonists in the 'story'.

However, if you read carefully the Gospels, you will see that people respected and adored the Pharisees. People speak highly of them.

Obviously, they had to be nice and sweet to everyone and had good relationship to others.

Seems like you want me to a bit more like the Pharisees? Pharisees who can't hurt a fly, can't overturn the tables of traders in the Temple??

You misunderstand. JESUS HIMSELF WAS A PHARISAICAL RABBI. Pharisees are not the problem. It is the pharisees of Jesus' day by and large, who knew the law backward and forward, but they were not living it from the heart. They had external righteousness without love, which is nothing more than noise.

If you knew biblical culture and history, you would know that the Pharisees, although respected as scholars, were not all rainbows and butterflies. They didn't care if they offended people, and they were not interested in being liked by the community.

 

[Phantasman]

all men partake of the Logos but not all partake of the Holy Spirit as the saints of God do. the Holy Spirit has knowledge that not even by logos/reason can normal men know.

Gnosis is the Spirit, just as the Spirit is Love and Good and Truth and One ect.

there are evil spirits and there are good spirits and then there is the uncreated Spirit of God which is better than all others. the goal for each one of us is to be united to God and be a good spirit with no defect at all which would mean the lesser part of our being which is the soul/female will not be injured anymore either. the soul seems like the spirits house and the celestial body. the male part of who we are seems to be our spirit.

this quote in galatians shows a spiritual progression. at first there are various spirits over us but in time the female gives birth to a child and we in time grow to a point where we are called sons of God and more grown up in the liberty of the Spirit of Christ where there is no more male nor female. i wish i understood this mystery more... it seems like our spirit is just a baby! and so angels take care and guard our soul until the baby grows up. this transformation seems quite amazing, to become a son of God. and even though we become a freeman we are still servants to those who need it. I kind of wonder what exactly does "jew" means and what did paul mean when he said "greek"! I wonder if he means jew = spirit and greek = soul or if he is attempting to show something else by those 2 words. or if he merely gave 2 different kinds of angelic beings set over people to push them to the fullness of Christ? then when we obtain the fullness there is not any of those things because we are like God more than ever and perhaps even become new kinds of angelic beings, as if a new nation is created from the loins of one child of God... perhaps this is partly what is meant by "new creation" and to more fully grow up in God and Christ. it would be nice to get to a point where we are not subjects of various good spirits but have our own land and kingdom of God.

Gal 3:25-4:7 (YLT)
and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus, for as many as to Christ were baptized did put on Christ; there is not here Jew or Greek, there is not here servant nor freeman, there is not here male and female, for all ye are one in Christ Jesus; and if ye are of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise--heirs. And I say, so long time as the heir is a babe, he differeth nothing from a servant--being lord of all, but is under tutors and stewards till the time appointed of the father, so also we, when we were babes, under the elements of the world were in servitude, and when the fulness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law, that those under law he may redeem, that the adoption of sons we may receive; and because ye are sons, God did send forth the spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, `Abba, Father!' so that thou art no more a servant, but a son, and if a son, also an heir of God through Christ.

how I see the totality of things, the more each one is free the less each one has to be a servant to others, the more people get free, the more we all become free. and one day Christ will deliver the kingdom over to God the Father and Christ will be all in all. and every knee shall bow. for it is displeasing to a wise man to always have to tell people things, he would rather his pupils become wise men themselves. the want of wisdom is like a want of food, in time there will be no more evil, which is lack of love. the fire of God will touch all beings and they shall all willingly submit, and become transformed and inherit all by their own freewill. for there is no such thing as love if you are a robot and so it was worth us suffering the lack of others at times, for love bares all things. the outcome of everything is indeed going to be wonderful imo.

to see the most vile of beings repent and become happy and full of joy, that is going to be wonderful. and that is a true reward for all of us who love one another. we sons of God would go through a trillion worlds if all would see the light and be warmed. we would become subject to vanity for the sake of our little brother. we humans would often die for the sake of our baby brother, how much more would God die for all or do anything to make us safe and better? i'm just happy God does not run out of Himself/Love/mercy/justice/wisdom or we would all be doomed.

a lot of religious people don't think like I think, they prefer and believe that some should forever suffer lack, lack = evil. those types believe salvation is something of gain, something to be bought, even though it is the Gift of God. this is one of the main reasons I preach the letter vs the spirit, I see more plainly than ever the lack men have. eh... and i have lack too, I want to become better so i can help people and not hurt them.

I see where you are, noxot. And I agree with you. Your spirit is shown in your very thoughts listed. You have crucified self and understand love. The real love. My only addition to the statement above is that I believe that Gnosis is also IN the spirit, and is given as one seeks with the intent of gaining THE truth and not going in closed minded expecting a conclusive answer to a previous belief.

 

[timewerx]

If you knew biblical culture and history, you would know that the Pharisees, although respected as scholars, were not all rainbows and butterflies. They didn't care if they offended people, and they were not interested in being liked by the community.

They were corrupted eventually and Jesus does not want to be identified with them anymore "Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees"

Jesus does not pride in any title. At best it's 'follower' 'disciple'. Jesus only values doing the Will of the Father which He regarded as food.

If Jesus was alive today, He would have given the warning "Beware of the yeast of the Christians!"