Posted by edpobre: "God ALONE created or MADE heaven and earth (Is. 37:16). That God is the Father (Is. 63:16; Is. 64:8) who CREATED us (Malachi 2:10)."
Ed... of course there is only one God... and He alone created the heavens and the earth. This in no way indicates that Christ is not God who became like man to be able to become our sacrifice. Christ is not some separate entity apart from God. He is not a different person or 'another' God. If this were so, then all of the verses indicating Christ's Diety would contradict the fact that there is only one God. Christ is the Living God who subjected Himself to humility, even the humility of taking man's punishment (death) for us. He became subservient to the Father from whom He came. Every verse you quote indicates this. The plethora of verses describing Christ as God fit together perfectly with those describing Him becoming flesh. This is why you see Him praying to the Father. This is why you see Him being subservient to the Father. God became subservient, (Christ), while at the same time still being God the Father in Heaven. The Bible clearly indicates Christ's Diety.
Posted by edpobre: "[John 1:1 is about God's "logos" or "wisdom" REGARDING the REDEMPTION of the world.The "WORD" in this verse is NOT Jesus.]"
Ed... instead of getting "the bible according to edpobre"... lets see what it actually says
John 1:1--"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning."
You say that the Word here is "not Jesus". Unfortunately for you ed... Jesus says that He is the beginning! The verse says the "Word was God". Then it clearly goes right into saying "He was with God in the beginning"... now who do you suppose this 'He' is? So by saying A=B and B=C... one can say that A=C. (I'm using this because I noticed you used some 'math logic' a while back) So this 'He' is directly addressed as "was God". This fits in perfectly with Hebrews 1:5--For to which of the angels did God ever say, You are my Son: today I have become your Father. Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. Hebrews 1:10 He also says, In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. (Notice at the beginning of this God says TODAY
I have become your Father
indicating that He wasnt always
while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End
indicating the claim I AM)
So ed... I think that anyone who simply reads what the Bible says without reading in "ed's" logic... will see that the Word = Christ.
Posted by edpobre: "[The "WORD" in this verse has NOT become a human being or a MAN yet. "The WORD was God" is a description of the POWER of God's "wisdom" (plan) REGARDING the REDEMPTION of the world.]"
Once again we have "the Bible accoriding to edpobre". The Bible does not say it is a 'description' of anything. It plainly states what it states... nothing more, nothing less. The Word, (who was God), became flesh. It says in verse 10 "He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him." This indicates the 'He' that we discussed above. It does not say that this 'He' is some kind of 'logos' or idea of God's... it says that "He" (the Word) was God and became flesh. The Word does not = "idea"/"logos"... The Word = God. This is straight from the Bible ed... no 'reading' anything into it.
Posted by edpobre: "[John 1:14 is about the FULFILLMENT of God's "logos" or "wisdom" THROUGH the birth of Jesus, a MAN. Here, apostle John is saying that God's "logos" or "wisdom" has BECOME a MAN or human being. John 1:2-13 is about Jesus, the MAN who is the FULFILLMENT of God's "logos" or "wisdom"]"
It is amazing how much one must 'force' into those verses when taken as "the Bible according to edpobre". We have already seen how this Word=God and that the Word is described as this 'He' who was with God in the beginning, and through whom all things were made. So by simply reading what is written we learn that this 'He' = God (the Word was God) and became flesh and made HIS dwelling among us. Once again... there is no "logos"/"idea"... it specifically says that the Word made HIS... (Indicating possession) dwelling among us. So it is the WORD itself, who was God, who became a man, that made HIS dwelling among us. Notice edpobre... that I do not use anything else but what is written in the Bible. I do not 'force' it to say what I want it to say. Believe!
It is amazing to read about all of the things that the Bible says about this Jesus Christ. If Christ was only a man... (as edpobre asserts)... then how could God call Him God... and also call Him the Lord that made everything. How could this man... just a mere man and nothing more... say that He is the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last... and indeed the Alpha and the Omega? How could He say that He is the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS? How could He say that when you see Him, you are seeing the Father as well? How could He pray to the Father (after He had become a like man) that He wants us (man) to be one even as He and the Father are one? If I am one with ben over here... are we not both human and equal? Then if we are one as Christ and the Father are one... is Christ not claiming equality with God? Christ obviously submitted Himself to being nothing for us. He became subservient to the Father... but as is indicated in Hebrews 9... this was necessary to become the sacrifice for our sins. It even clearly says... (no 'reading' anything into it)... that the one who made the covenant had to die. Well... here are some verses for those seeking the truth. Edpobre... believe!
1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."
3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)
7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. (Did God not make the covenant? These verses are very clear as to who had to die)
8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, You are my Son: today I have become your Father. Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. Hebrews 1:10 He also says, In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. (Notice at the beginning of this God says TODAY
I have become your Father
indicating that He wasnt always
while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End
indicating the claim I AM)
9) Revelation 22:13(Jesus speaking) I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
10) Colossians 2:9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form
11) Titus 2:13While we wait for the blessed hopethe glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ
12) John 20:28Thomas said to him, My Lord and my God!
13) John 18:3-6So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, Who is it you want? Jesus of Nazareth, they replied. I am he, Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, I am he, they drew back and fell to the ground.
14) Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."
15) Acts 3:15--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?)
16) We recieved the Spirit of God correct? (Joel 2:28) (2 Cor 1:21-22--Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a desposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) Then how is it that God's word also says that God sent the Spirit of Christ into us... unless Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God? There are not two different Spirits within me, but one! Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."