If Jesus is the TRUE God, who is his SON Jesus?

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Another thread on the trinity? Hasn't there been enough these past couple weeks?

I think everything that could be covered has been covered. Some see it as three some don't. The scripture is ambiguous enough to be interpreted either way.

You have 2 doctrines here, both are human-interpretations of existing scripture.

Doctrine 1: The Father is a deity, the Holy Spirit (wife?) is a deity, Jesus the son is a deity, all in one trinity (the daughter is missing from this 'tetrinity,' but maybe she'll be introduced later to complete the 4th letter of the Tetragrammaton).

Doctrine 2: The father is a deity, Jesus the son is a man, the Holy Spirity proceeds from the deity commanded by the son, but isn't a distinct God.

There you have it.
 
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OldShepherd

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Originally posted by Kain
Similarily

1 X 1 X 1 X 1 = 1

1 X 1 X 1 X 1 X 1 X 1 X 1 X 1 X 1 X 1 X 1 X 1 X 1 X 1 X 1 X 1 =1

1 X 1 X ad infinitum = 1

Ooooh that is soooo clever. Can I quote you on that? What it adds to the discussion is just indescribable.

At least Souljah's response dealt with scriptural revelation, God revealed Himself to mankind in three clearly definable ways. And an infinite number of ones relates to this exactly how?
 
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OldShepherd

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Originally posted by edpobre
Friends,

Most Trinitarians take 1 John 5:20 as PROOF that Jesus is God. Are they correct? If they are correct,  WHERE is his son, Jesus Christ?

Ed

Here is a link to a prior post which addressed this issue, and was virtually ignored. There are several quotes from the early church fathers, which prove that the church immediately after the apostolic years recognized that 1 John 5:20 referred to Jesus as the true God. For example see quote from Ignatius, below.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/21028-21.html

A Second Epistle Of Ignatius To St. John. (50-110 AD)
Ignatius was a disciple of John the Beloved, author of the Gospel of John, the three epistles and Revelation.


If thou wilt give me leave, I desire to go up to Jerusalem, and see the faithful (2) saints who are there, especially Mary the mother, whom they report to be an object of admiration and of affection to all. For who would not rejoice to behold and to address her who bore the true God from her own womb, provided he is a friend of our faith and religion? And in like manner [I desire to see] the venerable James, who is surnamed Just, whom they relate to be very like Christ Jesus in appearance,(4) in life, and in method of conduct, as if he were a twin-brother of the same womb.

And I am aware that the writing of the early church fathers is not inspired as are the scriptures but these writings give us a picture how the church, in the years immediately after the apostles, interpreted and put the scriptures into practice. For example, Ignatius, quoted above, was taught by John the beloved, who was taught by Jesus, and read both the Biblical languages.

And Jesus did say that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church that He built upon the rock.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by s0uljah
Look man, the Trinity is a fact. He is Father and Son. Does that make any sense?

No. But God says His thoughts are not our thoughts.

1 X 1 X 1 = 1

I see that Trinitarians are getting smarter! For CENTURIES  it had always been 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. Now it is 1 X 1 X 1 = 1. Modern math, eh?

Ed
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by OldShepherd
Here is a link to a prior post which addressed this issue, and was virtually ignored. There are several quotes from the early church fathers, which prove that the church immediately after the apostolic years recognized that 1 John 5:20 referred to Jesus as the true God. For example see quote from Ignatius, below.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/21028-21.html

A Second Epistle Of Ignatius To St. John. (50-110 AD)
Ignatius was a disciple of John the Beloved, author of the Gospel of John, the three epistles and Revelation.


If thou wilt give me leave, I desire to go up to Jerusalem, and see the faithful (2) saints who are there, especially Mary the mother, whom they report to be an object of admiration and of affection to all. For who would not rejoice to behold and to address her who bore the true God from her own womb, provided he is a friend of our faith and religion? And in like manner [I desire to see] the venerable James, who is surnamed Just, whom they relate to be very like Christ Jesus in appearance,(4) in life, and in method of conduct, as if he were a twin-brother of the same womb.

And I am aware that the writing of the early church fathers is not inspired as are the scriptures but these writings give us a picture how the church, in the years immediately after the apostles, interpreted and put the scriptures into practice. For example, Ignatius, quoted above, was taught by John the beloved, who was taught by Jesus, and read both the Biblical languages.

Tell me OldShepherd, was 1 John 5:20  written by St. Ignatius? I don't care what St. Ignatius wrote because that is NOT the topic of this thread.

In an earlier thread, you quoted  1 John 5:20 as PROOF that Jesus is the "true God and eternal life. I'm asking you now, IF you believe that is true, where is his SON Jesus? I don't expect you to hide behind the skirt of St. Ignatius because you have a brain of your own, I guess.

And Jesus did say that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church that He built upon the rock.

And what has this got to do with the topic? Are you trying to take the heat off by diverting the topic to another? 

Ed


 
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by OldShepherd
Ooooh that is soooo clever. Can I quote you on that? What it adds to the discussion is just indescribable.

At least Souljah's response dealt with scriptural revelation, God revealed Himself to mankind in three clearly definable ways. And an infinite number of ones relates to this exactly how?

Are you sure Souljah's response ( 1 x 1 x 1 = 1) dealt with scriptural revelation? Can you show us where that response was "revaled?"

Ed
 
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OldShepherd

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Originally posted by Kain
Another thread on the trinity? Hasn't there been enough these past couple weeks?

I think everything that could be covered has been covered. Some see it as three some don't. The scripture is ambiguous enough to be interpreted either way.

Blah, blah, blah.

There you have it.

Evidently everything has not been covered because you are still misrepresenting what Trinitarians believe about the Trinity. Evidently you just can't see past your own prejudices and presuppositions.

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OldShepherd

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Originally posted by edpobre
Originally posted by OldShepherd

Are you sure Souljah's response ( 1 x 1 x 1 = 1) dealt with scriptural revelation? Can you show us where that response was "revaled?"

Ed

1 Juan 5:7 May tatlong nagpapatotoo sa langit, ang Ama, ang Salita, ang Banal na Espiritu at ang tatlong ito ay iisa.
 
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OldShepherd

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Originally posted by edpobre
Originally posted by OldShepherd

In an earlier thread, you quoted  1 John 5:20 as PROOF that Jesus is the "true God and eternal life. I'm asking you now, IF you believe that is true, where is his SON Jesus? I don't expect you to hide behind the skirt of St. Ignatius because you have a brain of your own, I guess.
"where is his SON Jesus?" What are you talking about? The Father has a Son. Jesus is not the Father.

I notice you are starting to spew out insults again. If you are a disciple of Jesus why do you disobey His comandments.

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mateo 5:22 Ngunit sinasabi ko sa inyo na ang sinumang nagagalit sa kaniyang kapatid ng walang dahilan ay mapapasapanganib ng kahatulan. Ang sinumang magsabi sa kaniyang kapatid: Hangal ka, siya ay mapapasapanganib sa Sanhedrin. Ngunit ang sinumang magsabi: Wala kang kabuluhan, siya ay mapapasapanganib sa apoy ng impiyerno.

And what has this got to do with the topic? Are you trying to take the heat off by diverting the topic to another?&nbsp
Read any one of several of my posts of Matthew 16:18, they explain very clearly what Ignatius, and other early church fathers, has to do with this topic.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by OldShepherd
In an earlier thread, you quoted  1 John 5:20 as PROOF that Jesus is the "true God and eternal life. I'm asking you now, IF you believe that is true, where is his SON Jesus? I don't expect you to hide behind the skirt of St. Ignatius because you have a brain of your own, I guess.


"where is his SON Jesus?" What are you talking about? The Father has a Son. Jesus is not the Father.

I notice you are starting to spew out insults again. If you are a disciple of Jesus why do you disobey His comandments.

I don't think my saying that you have a brain of your own, I guess is an insult. It is an idiomatic expression of having your own thoughts about something. I want you to answer me , NOT quote what St. Ignatius wrote because I'm not interested in what he wrote.

At any rate do you deny your statement that Jesus is the "true God and eternal life?" You now say that the Father has a Son and Jesus is NOT the Father. Now, going back to 1 John 5:20, do you deny that "HIM who is true HAS a son, Jesus Christ?

Therefore, if you still believe that "HIM who is true" is Jesus, WHERE is Son, Jesus Christ? 

You wrote:
And Jesus did say that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church that He built upon the rock

I wrote:
And what has this got to do with the topic? Are you trying to take the heat off by diverting the topic to another?

Read any one of several of my posts of Matthew 16:18, they explain very clearly what Ignatius, and other early church fathers, has to do with this topic.

As I said, I'm interested in what you say about Matthew 16:18 being related to the topic of this thread. We are talking about 1 John 5:20. What has Matthew 16:18 got to do with it?

Ed
 
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Originally posted by edpobre
I don't think my saying that you have a brain of your own, I guess is an insult. It is an idiomatic expression of having your own thoughts about something. I want you to answer me , NOT qutoe what St. Ignatius wrote because I'm not interested in what he wrote.
If I was a member of a cult, and teaching the doctrines of a false prophet, I too would not be interested in the writings of the church that Jesus said He built upon the rock and that the gates of hell would not prevail against.
At any rate do you deny your statement that Jesus is the "true God and eternal life?" You now say that the Father has a Son and Jesus is NOT the Father. Now, going back to 1 John 5:20, do you deny that "HIM who is true HAS a son, Jesus Christ?
I do not understand this comment. I repeat what I said the Father has a Son, Jesus. Jesus is not the Father, but the word of God, 1 John 5:20, clearly states that Jesus is the true God. If you, or any other member of the Iglesisas ni Manalo, would learn to read the Biblical languages, for yourself, instead of blindly following the teachings of your leaders, you would be able to see the truth.

I have given you an answer, if you refuse to understand what I have said, quit playing games and state your objection, from the scriptures. And if you understand the concept, support your discussion with the writings of the church that Jesus built upon the rock, and which He said the gates of hell would not prevail against.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by OldShepherd
If I was a member of a cult, and teaching the doctrines of a false prophet, I too would not be interested in the writings of the church that Jesus said He built upon the rock and that the gates of hell would not prevail against.

Is the Catholic Church the church that Christ built? You must be joking! How can the Catholic Church be the church that Christ built when they OPPOSE the teachings of Christ?

1) Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40). The Catholic Church says Jesus is God;

2) Jesus says the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). The Catholic Church says Jesus is ALSO God IN ADDITION to the FATHER;

3) Jesus COMMANDS his disciples NOT to call ANYONE on earth FATHER (Matt. 23:9) - meaning Father of Spirits (Heb. 12:9).  The Catholic Church COMMANDS her members to CALL the Pope HOLY FATHER and the Priests, FATHERS. Since the Pope and the Priests are NOT even allowed to marry, they can NEVER become LEGITIMATE fathers. Thus, the only reason they are called fathers is because the Catholic Church believes that the Pope and the priests are representatives of God on earth. 

At any rate do you deny your statement that Jesus is the "true God and eternal life?" You now say that the Father has a Son and Jesus is NOT the Father. Now, going back to 1 John 5:20, do you deny that "HIM who is true HAS a son, Jesus Christ?

I do not understand this comment. I repeat what I said the Father has a Son, Jesus. Jesus is not the Father, but the word of God, 1 John 5:20, clearly states that Jesus is the true God.



You say you do not understand the comment. C'mmon be honest OldShepherd. You are saying this because you don't want to answer the question, right? Again, you are trying to divert the discussion to another topic. I don't care, for now, if Jesus is the word of God or not. For now, let us settle the question of WHERE is Jesus, the SON of "HIM who is true?"

You say that Jesus is NOT the Father. He is the Son of the Father, right? You also say (not 1 John 5:20) that Jesus (the SON) is the true God. You therefore DENY that the FATHER is the ONLY true God, right?

1 John 5:20 says: "..we are IN HIM who is true, EVEN in HIS son, Jesus Christ." You say that Jesus is "HIM who is true." If that is the case,WHERE is HIS son Jesus Christ?

If you, or any other member of the Iglesisas ni Manalo, would learn to read the Biblical languages, for yourself, instead of blindly following the teachings of your leaders, you would be able to see the truth.

Okay OldShepherd, you are fond of saying that we are "blindly following our leaders" hence we CANNOT see the TRUTH.   Let me ask you OldShepherd, isn't John 8:40 the TRUTH? Isn't John 17:3 the TRUTH? Don't you SEE that what these verses tell us are the TRUTH? Be honest OldSheopherd, who is BLIND?

Ed
 
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Originally posted by OldShepherd
Ooooh that is soooo clever. Can I quote you on that? What it adds to the discussion is just indescribable.

At least Souljah's response dealt with scriptural revelation, God revealed Himself to mankind in three clearly definable ways. And an infinite number of ones relates to this exactly how?

Yes, it was as clever as Souljah's 1X1X1=1
It clearly shows the analogy is a failure.

The point of this is that if some future revelation comes along which you perceive to be inspired by God, and in it he reveals a 4th and 5th clear definable aspect of himself, a Souljah would come along and say 1X1X1X1X1=1

There is no end. We can go up to infinity with this analogy.
 
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Originally posted by OldShepherd
Evidently everything has not been covered because you are still misrepresenting what Trinitarians believe about the Trinity. blah blah.

No, I covered what the trinitarians believe, where you marked off 'blah blah'

Doctrine 1: The Father is a deity, the Holy Spirit (wife?) is a deity, Jesus the son is a deity, all in one trinity (the daughter is missing from this 'tetrinity,' but maybe she'll be introduced later to complete the 4th letter of the Tetragrammaton).
 
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