If Jesus is the TRUE God, who is his SON Jesus?

[fieldsofwind]

This is real simple ed and kain.... neither of you have yet to take the following... piece by piece of you wish........ and show the error. It explains every question that you have had in regards to this subject because it is truth.

take care.... and do something this time

FOW

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posted by Kain: "Can an apple be an orange at the same time? A logical fallacy. By definition, an apple is not an oragne and vice versa. Also by definition, a God is not a man and vice versa. God says He is not a man and He doesn't change."

So you think that God can not change... since you're using this to assume 'state of being'... then I guess I could assume that He can not change His covenant??? God doesn't 'change' right??? What exactly does change mean then... guess He can't 'change the world' either ........ Exactly my point... God saying that He does not change has nothing to do with 'state of being'.... it has everything to do with who GOD is... which goes far beyond any particular 'form'. God became a man... while at the same time... being God. He became the Son...making Himself nothing... TAKING the nature of a servant... of a man, (this does not mean that He IS a man...no more, no less... like you or I... which is the 'man' thing that you referred to), so that He could become our sin.

God cannot be in the presence of sin, but out of His love for us He desired to take away that sin. This is why He took the nature of men... and took its penalty of death... even death on a cross. He became subservient to Himself... the Father. Now you say... He can't do that... and I tell you the truth... YES HE CAN!

Read this dialoge between myself and edpobre... it is one with which he has yet to respond to.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by ed: I know what is in the Bible fow. But that is not my question. I said you are NOT being RATIONAL because you said that this "thing" who is at the the side of the Father is "one and the SAME thing as the Father." BTW, what is this you cal "thing" fow?

you are the one that refered to 'thing'

Posted by ed: "Then show me the verse which says that the Father BECAME the SON."

The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

The Bible says: (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Bible says: (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

The Bible says: (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Bible says this was necessary: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

The Bible says: (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the cse of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.

Did God not make the covenant???

The Bible says: (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Remeber God says that I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)


well ed.... Christ says that HE is the Alapha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last..... as does the Father. I ask you ed... are they not claiming the saim thing??? if two things come in first in a race... are they not of equal speed??? simple

ed's reply: If that's how you think, do you admit then that you believe there are two "Gods" whom you pass off as "things?"

No ed... that's not how I think.. They both say it ed... God says that there are no others... therefore they are one... they are both the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... ther FIRST AND THE LAST!!!

Why did God create the earth ed??? It was because He desired a love relationship with a creation... Love ed... "Through Him all things were made that have been made" (John 1)... God is Love (1st John 4:8)... and through His love, He came to us. (also John 1) There are not two separate 'things' as you say ed... there is one Living God who is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. He is undescribable... and says that He IS.

When God made Himself a man... it was His love.... Jesus Christ... and He subjected himself to endure mans punishment, and subservience. This was His sacrifice, that He became our sins... God the Father can not be in the presence of sin, much less become it. Therefore, out of His uncomprehendible love... He made Himself nothing. He came to us and His name is Jesus Christ-Emmanuel-God with us: Yes... God can do that, even becoming something on earth, while at the same time being God the Father in Heaven. Yes... God can do any number of "evens" that one could fathom asking.

Christ, who being in very nature God, who made Himself nothing, became subject to God the Father... and at the end when all things were finished, was taken again into glory and given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OR LORDS... ALL CAPS ED. This is the title reserved for the LORD HIMSELF... WHO WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER... IT IS THE TITLE OF MY LORD CHRIST WHO IS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE HAVING DEFEATED DEATH... AND THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES RESIDE IN HIS HANDS! And after it is all over... Christ will subject Himself to the Father thus the Father becomes all in all. Christ is God... who made>HIMSELF<a man... and who was then again glorified by Him from whom He came

I believe

 

[LouisBooth]

"Not so fow, God sais He is not a man. So I don't believe He became one. To do so is to call God a liar."

I really think you don't understand that passage at all. If you read it, it is clearly talking about he doesn't do evil like men do. that is the point being made.

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by edpobre
Are God the Savior, God the Redeemer, God the Lord of Hosts God the Holy "persons" of the "Godhead" too?

What I am asking you to count are your so-called "persons" of the "Godhead" or Trinity, namely 1) God the Father; 2) God the Son; and 3) God the Holy Spirit.

You know very well that savior, redeemer, Lord of hosts, and holy are DESCRIPTIONS of that ONE and ONLY God and are not at par with Father, Son and Holy&nbsp;Spirit.&nbsp;

So cut that "cuteness" OldShepherd and answer me HONESTLY: how many times does God appear in your "Godhead?"

Tell me OldShepherd, which of these definitions fit your idea of "person?"

"Are God the Savior, God the Redeemer, God the Lord of Hosts God the Holy "persons" of the "Godhead" too?" Depends on your definition of person. But yes God the redeemer or savior, etc. are part of God in much the same way that God the Holy Spirit is.

"You know very well that savior, redeemer, Lord of hosts, and holy are DESCRIPTIONS of that ONE and ONLY God and are not at par with Father, Son and Holy&nbsp;Spirit.&nbsp; I know no such thing. What I believe is that Son and Holy Spirit also are DESCRIPTIONS of the ONE and ONLY God.

"So cut that "cuteness" OldShepherd and answer me HONESTLY: how many times does God appear in your "Godhead?"" Your question to me is no different than my question to you. How many times did you count God in my question?

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by OldShepherd

"Are God the Savior, God the Redeemer, God the Lord of Hosts God the Holy "persons" of the "Godhead" too?

" Depends on your definition of person. But yes God the redeemer or savior, etc. are part of God in much the same way that God the Holy Spirit is.

Is your definition of "person" different from mine? What is a "person" OldShepherd? Why can't Trinitarians tell me what "person" is? So you believe that God the redeemer or savior, etc. are PART of God in much the SAME way that God the Holy Spirit is. How about God the Son and God the Father OldShepherd, are they PART of God too?

Then gather your thoughts OldShepherd and answer me HONESTLY. How many PERCENT of God is God the Father, how many PERCENT of God is God the Son and how many PERCENT of God is God the Holy Spirit? How about God the redeemer, how many PERCENT of God is it?

"You know very well that savior, redeemer, Lord of hosts, and holy are DESCRIPTIONS of that ONE and ONLY God and are not at par with Father, Son and Holy&nbsp;Spirit.&nbsp;

I know no such thing. What I believe is that Son and Holy Spirit also are DESCRIPTIONS of the ONE and ONLY God.

You say you DON'T know that savior, redeemer, Lord of hosts and holy are DESCRIPTIONS of the ONE and ONLY God. But you say you believe that SON and Holy Spirit are. Please be honest with me OldShepherd. Do you really understand English?

"So cut that "cuteness" OldShepherd and answer me HONESTLY: how many times does God appear in your "Godhead?""

Your question to me is no different than my question to you. How many times did you count God in my question?

MY God is&nbsp;ONLY ONE&nbsp;and that is the Father ALONE.

You say&nbsp;YOUR God (shouldn't it be "Godhead?") is&nbsp;ONLY ONE&nbsp;yet you INSIST that they&nbsp;ARE God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spiit.

So I ask you again OldShepherd, how many Gods can you count when you&nbsp;call on&nbsp;the THREE "persons" of YOUR God/Godhead?

Ed

&nbsp;

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Not so fow, God sais He is not a man. So I don't believe He became one. To do so is to call God a liar."

I really think you don't understand that passage at all. If you read it, it is clearly talking about he doesn't do evil like men do. that is the point being made.

For once I agree with you LouisBooth. God was making the point that He does NOT do evil like men do.

But isn't it TRUE that the REASON God DOESN'T do evil like MEN do is BECAUSE He is NOT a MAN?

Now, if it is TRUE that God is NOT a MAN, can He BECOME one? Of course, He can if He WANTS to. BUT, if God BECOMES a MAN, then He would DO evil like MEN do, right?

And that would make God a LIAR!

Therefore,&nbsp;I&nbsp;don't believe that God BECAME a MAN nor will God EVER become a MAN.&nbsp;

Ed

 

[OldShepherd]

Posted by Pobre
"You know very well that savior, redeemer, Lord of hosts, and holy are DESCRIPTIONS of that ONE and ONLY God and are not at par with Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Posted by Oldshepherd
I know no such thing. What I believe is that Son and Holy Spirit also are DESCRIPTIONS of the ONE and ONLY God.

Posted by Pobre
You say you DON'T know that savior, redeemer, Lord of hosts and holy are DESCRIPTIONS of the ONE and ONLY God. But you say you believe that SON and Holy Spirit are. Please be honest with me OldShepherd. Do you really understand English?

Practice your lies and deception on other people El Pobre. My answer is very clear. As with the Trinity you are incapable of dealing with the truth so you must twist everything.

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by OldShepherd &nbsp;

Posted by Pobre

You know very well that savior, redeemer, Lord of hosts, and holy are DESCRIPTIONS of that ONE and ONLY God and are not at par with Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Posted by OldShepherd

I know no such thing. What I believe is that Son and Holy Spirit[/size] also are DESCRIPTIONS of the ONE and ONLY God.[/b]

Posted by Pobre

You say you DON'T know that savior, redeemer, Lord of hosts and holy are DESCRIPTIONS of the ONE and ONLY God. But you say you believe that SON and Holy Spirit are. Please be honest with me OldShepherd. Do you really understand English?

Posted by OldShepherd

Practice your lies and deception on other people El Pobre. My answer is very clear. As with the Trinity you are incapable of dealing with the truth so you must twist everything. [/B]

You FAILED to mention the FATHER OldSheperd. Is God the FATHER not ALSO a description of the ONE and ONLY God? &nbsp;

And you haven't answered my questions in an earlier post OldShepherd. What do you mean by "person?" What PERCENT of God is God the Father? What PERCENT of God is God the Son? What PERCENT of God is God the Holy Spirit?

And how many GODS can you count when you name the THREE "persons" of your "Godhead?"

Ed

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by edpobre
You FAILED to mention the FATHER OldSheperd. Is God the FATHER not ALSO a description of the ONE and ONLY God? &nbsp;

And you haven't answered my questions in an earlier post OldShepherd. What do you mean by "person?" What PERCENT of God is God the Father? What PERCENT of God is God the Son? What PERCENT of God is God the Holy Spirit?

And how many GODS can you count when you name the THREE "persons" of your "Godhead?"

I count the same number of God when I count the three persons as I do when I count Redeemer, Savior, Lord, Lord of Hosts, El Shaddai, etc.

The fact that I may not mention "the Father" every time I mention "God" means absolutely nothing.

I gave you my definition of person.

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by OldShepherd

Originally posted by edpobre

You FAILED to mention the FATHER OldSheperd. Is God the FATHER not ALSO a description of the ONE and ONLY God? &nbsp;

And you haven't answered my questions in an earlier post OldShepherd. What do you mean by "person?" What PERCENT of God is God the Father? What PERCENT of God is God the Son? What PERCENT of God is God the Holy Spirit?

And how many GODS can you count when you name the THREE "persons" of your "Godhead?"

I count the same number of God when I count the three persons as I do when I count Redeemer, Savior, Lord, Lord of Hosts, El Shaddai, etc.

Why CAN'T&nbsp;you be CLEAR about counting the number of&nbsp;times the word "God" appears when you mention the THREE "persons" of God? Why are you&nbsp;too evasive about answering this question&nbsp;HONESTLY OldShepherd?&nbsp;

Now tell me in CLEAR, non-evasive &nbsp;manner OldShepherd, how many times does the word "God" appear in this series of phrases: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit?"&nbsp; Is&nbsp;the answer&nbsp;ONE or THREE OldShepherd?

The fact that I may not mention "the Father" every time I mention "God" means absolutely nothing.

Then answer my question OldShepherd. Is the Father NOT a DESCRIPTION of God?&nbsp;And why have you not answered my other questions. In an earlier post, you said that the Son and the Holy Spirit are PARTS of God. So I ask again, how many PERCENT of God is God the Son? How many PERCENT of God is God the Holy Spirit? And how many PERCENT of God is God the Father?

This should NOT be hard to answer by one who deems himself very&nbsp;proficient in SIMPLE math and English.

I gave you my definition of person.

Yes, you gave me SEVEN definitions of "person" and I asked you which of these is YOUR definition of "person" as it pertains to the Trinity doctrine. You haven't answered my question OldShepherd.

Ed

 

[seventhday]

Careful guys, your Christianity is showing! I would add that the referece above to the Holy spirit being a "she" borders on blasphemy. The scripture clearly refers to Him as a "He".

You can sit around for days trying to figure it out and you never will. The more you think about it the more of a problem it becomes. ¶ Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? Job 11:7


But the Bible is clear, Jesus is God the Son, the Creator of all life thru the power of God the Father.

Some things will have to wait until we can ask the Lord face to face. God Bless!

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by seventhday
But the Bible is clear, Jesus is God the Son, the Creator of all life thru the power of God the Father.

Some things will have to wait until we can ask the Lord face to face. God Bless!

seventhday,

Plese&nbsp;SHOW me where in the Bible is it CLEAR that Jeus is GOD the Son, the CREATOR of ALL life THROUGH the power of God the Father?

I hope we have the SAME&nbsp;understanding of the meaning of "CLEAR."

Ed&nbsp;

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by OldShepherd

Main Entry: per·son
Pronunciation: 'p&r-s&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French persone, from Latin persona actor's mask, character in a play, person, probably from Etruscan phersu mask, from Greek prosOpa, plural of prosOpon face, mask -- more at PROSOPOPOEIA
Date: 13th century
1 : HUMAN, INDIVIDUAL -- sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes <chairperson> <spokesperson>
2 : a character or part in or as if in a play : GUISE
3 a : one of the three modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead as understood by Christians b : the unitary personality of Christ that unites the divine and human natures
4 a: archaic : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being; also : the body and clothing <unlawful search of the person>
5 : the personality of a human being : SELF
6 one (as a human being, a partnership, or a corporation) that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties
7 : reference of a segment of discourse to the speaker, to one spoken to, or to one spoken of as indicated by means of certain pronouns or in many languages by verb inflection.

Posted by Pobre
Why CAN'T you be CLEAR about counting the number of times the word "God" appears when you mention the THREE "persons" of God? Why are you too evasive about answering this question HONESTLY OldShepherd?

Now tell me in CLEAR, non-evasive manner OldShepherd, how many times does the word "God" appear in this series of phrases: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit?" Is the answer ONE or THREE OldShepherd?

I am clear Pobre! I simply refuse to get sucked into your nonsensical word games. You think by asking idiotic question you are proving something. So if my answer to that question proves something to you, then your answer to the same kind of question should prove the same thing. So how many times does the name “God” appear in the following phrases? God the Father. God the Redeemer. God the Savior. God the Lord. God the Lord of Hosts. God El Shaddai. If you can answer my question, the answer to your own question should be obvious.

What is my definition of person? It depends on the context. Person does not have only the limited meaning of one single human being.

Then answer my question OldShepherd. Is the Father NOT a DESCRIPTION of God? And why have you not answered my other questions. In an earlier post, you said that the Son and the Holy Spirit are PARTS of God. So I ask again, how many PERCENT of God is God the Son? How many PERCENT of God is God the Holy Spirit? And how many PERCENT of God is God the Father?

This should NOT be hard to answer by one who deems himself very proficient in SIMPLE math and English.

Simple Pobre. This is another of those idiotic questions which you think proves something. God is God is God. God is not restricted or bound by our puny concepts of logic, reason, etc. etc.

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by OldShepherd &nbsp;

Main Entry: per·son
Pronunciation: 'p&amp;r-s&amp;n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French persone, from Latin persona actor's mask, character in a play, person, probably from Etruscan phersu mask, from Greek prosOpa, plural of prosOpon face, mask -- more at PROSOPOPOEIA
Date: 13th century
1 : HUMAN, INDIVIDUAL -- sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes <CHAIRPERSON><SPOKESPERSON>
2 : a character or part in or as if in a play : GUISE
3 a : one of the three modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead as understood by Christians b : the unitary personality of Christ that unites the divine and human natures
4 a: archaic : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being; also : the body and clothing <UNLAWFUL person the of search>
5 : the personality of a human being : SELF
6 one (as a human being, a partnership, or a corporation) that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties
7 : reference of a segment of discourse to the speaker, to one spoken to, or to one spoken of as indicated by means of certain pronouns or in many languages by verb inflection.

What is my definition of person? It depends on the context. Person does not have only the limited meaning of one single human being.[/b]

In the&nbsp;"context" of the Trinity, where Trinitarians say there are THREE "persons" in ONE God, &nbsp;what do you mean by "person" if you say that "person" does not have only the limited meaning of one single human being?

Posted by Pobre
Why CAN'T you be CLEAR about counting the number of times the word "God" appears when you mention the THREE "persons" of God? Why are you too evasive about answering this question HONESTLY OldShepherd?

Now tell me in CLEAR, non-evasive manner OldShepherd, how many times does the word "God" appear in this series of phrases: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit?" Is the answer ONE or THREE OldShepherd?

I am clear Pobre! I simply refuse to get sucked into your nonsensical word games. You think by asking idiotic question you are proving something. So if my answer to that question proves something to you, then your answer to the same kind of question should prove the same thing. So how many times does the name “God” appear in the following phrases? God the Father. God the Redeemer. God the Savior. God the Lord. God the Lord of Hosts. God El Shaddai. If you can answer my question, the answer to your own question should be obvious.

I count SIX "Gods" in the phrases you listed OldShepherd. That was NOT hard to ADD. Does this prove that I have SIX Gods? It doesn't OldShepherd. I am CLEAR about MY God: He is ONE and that ONE and ONLY God is the FATHER alone. He is DESCRIBED as&nbsp; God the redeemer, God the savior, God the Lord of hosts, and God El Shaddai.&nbsp;I CALL my ONLY ONE God, God the Father.

Now tell me, how many times does the word "God" appear in this series of phrases: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit?" Is the answer ONE or THREE OldShepherd?

Why do you think this is a "non-sensical word game' OldShepherd? Is it because it PROVES that the Trinity is a NON-SENSICAL doctrine?

Then answer my question OldShepherd. Is the Father NOT a DESCRIPTION of God? And why have you not answered my other questions. In an earlier post, you said that the Son and the Holy Spirit are PARTS of God. So I ask again, how many PERCENT of God is God the Son? How many PERCENT of God is God the Holy Spirit? And how many PERCENT of God is God the Father?

This should NOT be hard to answer by one who deems himself very proficient in SIMPLE math and English.

Simple Pobre. This is another of those idiotic questions which you think proves something. God is God is God. God is not restricted or bound by our puny concepts of logic, reason, etc. etc.

Why do you think this is an IDIOTIC question OldShepherd? Is it because it PROVES that the Trinity is an IDIOTIC doctrine?

Don't you think that your answer "God is God is God. God is not restricted or bound by our puny concepts of logic, reason, etc, etc." is the most IDIOTIC answer that an OLD, mature (????), thinking (??????) "person" (as in the Trinity)&nbsp; could give?

Ed

 

[Gunny]

Originally posted by edpobre

MY God is ONLY ONE and that is the Father ALONE.

What Do they Teach Let Us Ministries

Denying the deity of Christ

They teach Christ is only a man which had authority given to him using such scriptures Jn.8:40 and the numerous places Christ calls himself a man. Lk.24:36 where Jesus said to the mistaken disciples see a Spirit does not have flesh and bones so he is not a Spirit. He was correcting their wrong belief which proves he was not God (Also Hosea 11:9)

What they ignore is the context why they though the was a ghost, he just appeared in the room which no man can do. They argue against what we don’t believe. We do believe he was true man but he also was true God. Their argument is not with the church per se but the bible itself. Phil. 2 :5-11 solves all that challenges of his being subordinate. If one wants to look to Christ not being in this subordinate position the 2nd coming should be clear enough in Rev.17:14 "These shall make war with the Lamb and the Lamb shall overcome them; for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings."

Deut.10:17 tells us that Yahweh is the LORD OF LORDS. Only if Christ IS Yahweh and the Father IS Yahweh do we have any consistency in scripture.

Undermining The Bibles authority and replacing it with mans

The INC organization constantly claims that the Bible is the sole source of their doctrines but they subtly undermine the Bible's reliability and ultimate authority. This is a common practice of organized heresies.

"...some of the verses of the Bible were wrongly translated." PASUGO, February 1973, p. 16.

"No, it is beyond man's power and intelligence to study and understand the truth, which is God's word (John 17:17), by himself, without the guidance of God's messenger." (PASUGO, November 1973, p., 19, 20.)

What they do is train people to hear the voice of their own shepherd instead of the true shepherd.

"A doctrine is not of God if it is different from what is written in the Holy Scriptures, or even if found written but is not the present truth it becomes vain before God if used as the basis for worshipping God." ( PASUGO, Jan. 1976, p. 12.)

It is common for authoritarian groups to undermine anything that might threaten their position as the ultimate source of truth in the, life of the member.

The INC organization teaches that Jesus is not the true God, nor is He God in bodily form. This does not make them different from other religions. Instead they become just one of the many religions to hold the view of denying the Deity of Jesus Christ.

"Revelation 12:9 reveals that Satan is the deceiver of the whole world. The belief that Jesus is God is worldwide. Coincidence?" (PASUGO, September/October 1979, p. 26)

The INC organization here implies that it is Satan that is deceiving the world into believing that Jesus is God. We have shown you facts that most of the world believes that Jesus is not the true God. What facts do the INC organization have to prove that the belief that Jesus is God in bodily form has been spread worldwide by Satan? In Satan's attempt to discredit Jesus he always gives Him less honor than He deserves, not.

The INC misquotes Dr. Charles C. Ryrie (A.B., Haverford College; T.M., TH.D, Dallas Theological Seminary; Ph.D., University Of Edinburgh). He served as professor of Systematic Theology at Dallas Theological Seminary for many years and is best known for his work on the Ryric Study Bible. We will now read what the INC organization said to make it appear that Dr. Ryrie agreed with them.

"In the annotations of his Ryrie Study Bible he had this to say about the phrase in John 1:1 'and the Word was with God."'

"In this verse the Word (Christ) is said to be with God (that is, in communion with and yet distinct from God) (p.1599)."

"Therefore, when Dr. Ryrie says, that the Word is distinct from God he is saying the Word is not the same, but rather separate or different from God." (PASUGO, May/June 1984, p. 14 & 15)

We will now see what Dr. Ryrie really has written in the annotations of his Ryrie Study Bible (page 1599):

"In this verse the Word (Christ) is said to be with God (i.e., in communion with and yet distinct from God) and to be God (i.e., identical in essence with God)."

The INC organization not only stopped Dr. Ryrie's quote in the middle of his statement, but they also placed a period after the word God which makes it appear that the statement stops there! This deliberate act of misquoting completely changes what Dr. Ryrie said. The INC organization claims that Dr. Ryrie says the Word (Christ) is different from God. That is not what Dr. Ryrie said! Dr. Ryrie said that in John 1:1 Christ is identical in essence with God and to be God.(Taken from the one book written on their movement The Only True church by Robert Eliff p.79-82)

There are many an organization that uses dishonest methods to prove their doctrines, what does that say about the organization and its doctrines? Is the INC doctrine that Jesus is not God in bodily form is so weak that they change the words of those they quote? In the same manner as the JW's they vainly attempt to explain away passages of the Bible that clearly teach that Jesus is in fact God in a human body. It’s easy to convince their own members when no one will look further than their own publication. Since their members do not read the Bible on their own, nor are they encouraged to pursue their own studies.e

"The true church is determined and can be singled out from the false, by evaluating her doctrines... Preachers of the true church do not explain away the passages of the Bible, they merely articulate on what is written... False preachers do the contrary they obscure what the bible teaches by their own preaching .(Pasugo nov.p19 1973)

Following in the footsteps of other organized heresies, the INC organization has used Colossians 1:15 to try to prove that Jesus was a created being. In actuality, this passage clearly demonstrates that Jesus is the Creator! Let's study what they have said and then compare it to what the Bible says.

"Colossians 1:15 states very clearly, Christ is 'the firstborn of every creature,' and is therefore not the Creator."(PASUGO, January/February 1980, p. 37.)

'Apostle Paul clearly taught that our Lord Jesus Christ is man. He is different from God. He is not God, neither is He God-Man. Rather, He is a man mediating between God and men."(GOD'S MESSAGE / July - September 1994)

"The scriptures do not teach that Christ is the creator of all things." (PASUGO, March/April 1982, p. 26.)

Really! Col.1:15 certainly does as well as Jn.1:3 and many other passages. The real problem is that they do not read their bibles unless they are inside the Church or a study with an instructor



John 1:2-3: " He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through through Him, and without Him nothing was made without Him nothing was made that was made." This does not exclude e Father and the Spirit. Just as it says in Gen.1, in the beginning God created, therefore if Christ created then Christ is God. How they avoid this is hard to understand, yet avoid it they do. Like the many other anti-deity cults they must jump through numerous hoops to prove this is not true

Col. 1:16-19: " For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,' the fullness of what? Col.2:9 says of deity." What makes God -God was pleasantly and completely in Christ.



Cont'd

 

[Gunny]

Originally posted by edpobre

MY God is ONLY ONE and that is the Father ALONE.

Cont'd


What Do they Teach Let Us Reason Ministries

Denying the deity of Christ


Savior

They agree that mans basic problem is sin and they agree that Christ's death is the only solution to the problem. but they teach the only way to appropriate the benefits of Christ's death is through the Church and its messenger, so they are indirectly denying salvation is by Christ's atonement on the cross obtained through repentance and faith.

Isa.19:20: "And he shall send them a Savior." We find in Isa. 63:8 it states of God "so he became their Savior." When we come to the New Testament we find who that Savior is.

Lk.2:11: "For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior who is Christ the Lord." Notice he says the Savior is born, God who is savior, meaning the Son of God came in the flesh. Emmanuel God with us. Titus 2:13 Jesus is called our great God and savior. (Titus 3:6; 2 Tim.1:10) "The Lord Jesus Christ our Savior." 1 Tim.4:10, 2 Pt.1:1 "Of our God and Savior Jesus Christ. "In the OT it is clear that God alone is Savoir.( Isa.41:3,11; 45:15, 49:26, Hos.13:4) their is no contradiction in the Scripture.

Passages such as Jn.17:3 That "this is eternal life that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." They claim the only true God is the father, not Christ. Despite the controversy over the only true God and Jesus being equal, there are other passages that clarify this. The same John also wrote 1 Jn.5:20: "And we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ this is the true God and eternal life." There is no father mentioned in this passage. If the Son is the true God then doesn’t that make him eternal, possessing eternal life as his personal nature? Of course it does, this is the clear teaching of scripture but this can’t be seen if one does not read the scripture. as they receive instruction only from their services, messengers and magazine. It works for the JW’s and it does for Iglesia.

Scriptures they camp on are Jn.10:29 and my father is Greater than all Jn.14:28, Showing that Christ cannot be God.

In Jn.13:16 it states "A servant is not greater than their master." If taken as they teach and one would use their own mind instead of what they were trained in, the flaw becomes evident. Since Jesus is less than the Father in nature this would mean the disciples are less in nature than Jesus who is to them only a man. But this verse is speaking of position not nature. This is found by the meaning of the word greater and in the Greek and in the logical context in those passage and the overall teaching of scripture. They then go to Jn.5:37 the father sent Jesus to prove he can’t be God if he is sent. Jn.20:21-22: "As the Father sent me, I also send you. Again if this were a statement of nature then when Jesus sends out the disciples who are different than himself they would be less in nature than him being not human. Once again all one has to do is show where Jesus was sent from (heaven) to solve this dilemma. Did Jesus as a man preexist in heaven, not likely that anyone would concede to this interpretation.

Jn.7:29: " I am from Him and He has sent me." John 16:16,17,:28 states, "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world, again I leave the world and go to the Father. "The Fathers location is in heaven.

John 6:38 Jesus states, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of HIM WHO SENT ME."

Jn.6:33 "For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

John 6:62: "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? Jn. 8:23 "You are from beneath, I am from above, you are of this world, I am not of this world."Jn3:31 "He who comes from above is above all... 1 Cor.15:47: "the first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second man is the Lord from heaven. Here again is showing the origin of the Son coming from above. Who does Iglesia think came from heaven? For this they simply avoid an answer and go back to their stance Jesus is a man (only).

They consistently set up simple straw man arguments and knock them down with ease. They bring attention to the hard passages that take more time to explain and immediately dismiss them as they insert their meaning as plain and clear. Their teaching is basically to counter all of Christianity

Eph.4:6: "One Father in you all? Do they believe God is in someone? No.

Jer.23:6 calls a man the Lord our righteousness = In the NT we find Christ is our righteousness

Resurrection

Since God cannot die Jesus died therefore he is not God. But while we use the phrase God died what we mean is Christ the man did. God cannot die but gave up the body he lived in. They also claim who raised him Acts.2:32 God did Rom.6 the father did neglecting what Jesus said of himself Jn.2:19: "Destroy this temple and I will raise it up." v. 21 he was speaking of the temple of his body

Jn.10:17-18: "Therefore does my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." It is inconsequential whether he received the instruction from the Father. He is involved in raising up himself in body, so for one to do this they must still be living as Spirit to accomplish this.

What of the clear statements that Christ said he is Lord of the Sabbath. Meaning he is the creator who rested on the 7th day. Why is it so crucial to know him and he to know us in Mt.7:21, does God want us to have a relationship with only a man or himself. Would God tell us to pray in a mans name or even a prophets no matter how great they were. Of course not, we invoke the name above all names in prayer, how could that be only a mans. Yes he is a man, but not only a man as he is deity as proven in the transfiguration.

Afterlife

They borrowed soul sleep from the 7th day Adventists where a person has no consciousness after death. This is directly traced to their influence Manalo had when he was trained. Not even in the early church did the false teachers came up with this one.

While they do teach the 2nd coming of Christ they do not teach any millennial reign on earth. It is these areas that there is little information on since no one leaves to tell about it except a few.

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by gunnysgt

If one wants to look to Christ not being in this subordinate position the 2nd coming should be clear enough in Rev.17:14 "These shall make war with the Lamb and the Lamb shall overcome them; for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings."

Deut.10:17 tells us that Yahweh is the LORD OF LORDS. Only if Christ IS Yahweh and the Father IS Yahweh do we have any consistency in scripture.

Your CONCLUSION that we only have consistency in scripture IF&nbsp;Christ IS Yahweh and the Father IS Yahweh is FALSE! That would make Christ and the Father ONE and the SAME Yahweh or God.

Christ is "Lord of Lords" only until ALL things have been placed UNDER his feet (1 Cor. 15:27). After that, Jesus himself will be placed&nbsp;UNDER God who then reverts back to being "Lord of Lords" because Jesus who is "Lord of Lords" is now SUBJECT to God.

The INC organization constantly claims that the Bible is the sole source of their doctrines but they subtly undermine the Bible's reliability and ultimate authority. This is a common practice of organized heresies.

How does the INC subtly undermine the Bible's reliability and ultimate authority? Do you expect people to believe your unsubstantiated charge? Most people are more intelligent than you think gunnysgt.

What they do is train people to hear the voice of their own shepherd instead of the true shepherd.

Again, you are making an unsubstantiated charge gunnysgt. &nbsp; Cite an example so rational and intelligent people can evaluate the truth of wht you are saying.

It is common for authoritarian groups to undermine anything that might threaten their position as the ultimate source of truth in the, life of the member.

The INC organization teaches that Jesus is not the true God, nor is He God in bodily form. This does not make them different from other religions. Instead they become just one of the many religions to hold the view of denying the Deity of Jesus Christ.

The INC teaches doctrines of Christ gunnysgt. Jesus TAUGHT that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). These TWO verses alone PRECLUDES Jesus from being God. Otherwise, he is a FALSE God because he is NOT the Father but the SON.

On the other hand, Trinitarians TEACH a doctrine that CONTRADICTS what Jesus TAUGHT. Anyone who CONTRADICTS Christ is an ANTI-CHRIST.

Ed

 

[Gunny]

Bible Descrepancies


Characteristics of a cult

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by gunnysgt


They agree that mans basic problem is sin and they agree that Christ's death is the only solution to the problem. but they teach the only way to appropriate the benefits of Christ's death is through the Church and its messenger, so they are indirectly denying salvation is by Christ's atonement on the cross obtained through repentance and faith.

Your belief that "salvation&nbsp; is by Christ's atonement on the cross obtained through repntance and faith" is FALSE! Go to the "Who will NOT be saved?" thread and see for yourself that obtaining salvation is much MORE than that.

Isa.19:20: "And he shall send them a Savior." We find in Isa. 63:8 it states of God "so he became their Savior." When we come to the New Testament we find who that Savior is.

Lk.2:11: "For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior who is Christ the Lord." Notice he says the Savior is born, God who is savior, meaning the Son of God came in the flesh. Emmanuel God with us. Titus 2:13 Jesus is called our great God and savior. (Titus 3:6; 2 Tim.1:10) "The Lord Jesus Christ our Savior." 1 Tim.4:10, 2 Pt.1:1 "Of our God and Savior Jesus Christ. "In the OT it is clear that God alone is Savoir.( Isa.41:3,11; 45:15, 49:26, Hos.13:4) their is no contradiction in the Scripture.

The&nbsp;INTERPRETATION of Titus 2:13 that Jesus is our great God and savior is FALSE! &nbsp;God MADE Jesus Prince and SAVIOR to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins (Acts 5:31).&nbsp;

Passages such as Jn.17:3 That "this is eternal life that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." They claim the only true God is the father, not Christ. Despite the controversy over the only true God and Jesus being equal, there are other passages that clarify this. The same John also wrote 1 Jn.5:20: "And we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ this is the true God and eternal life." There is no father mentioned in this passage. If the Son is the true God then doesn’t that make him eternal, possessing eternal life as his personal nature? Of course it does, this is the clear teaching of scripture but this can’t be seen if one does not read the scripture. as they receive instruction only from their services, messengers and magazine. It works for the JW’s and it does for Iglesia.

If Jesus is the true God, who is his son Jesus? Read 1 John 5:20 and you will see that "we are in HIS son,&nbsp;Jesus Christ. While there is no mention of Father in 1 John 5:20, &nbsp;it is very CLEAR that "HIM who is true" has a SON, Jesus Christ. Therefore, it is safe to assume that "HIM who is true" is the Father (cf. John 17:3,1).

What of the clear statements that Christ said he is Lord of the Sabbath. Meaning he is the creator who rested on the 7th day.

This is a CLEAR case of TWISTING scripture. Christ being the Lord of the Sabbath does NOT make him the creator who rested on the 7th day. Jesus SAID he is a MAN (John 8:40). Gen. 1:27 says God CREATED man. Thus, Jesus is a CREATED human being.

Why is it so crucial to know him and he to know us in Mt.7:21, does God want us to have a relationship with only a man or himself. Would God tell us to pray in a mans name or even a prophets no matter how great they were. Of course not, we invoke the name above all names in prayer, how could that be only a mans. Yes he is a man, but not only a man as he is deity as proven in the transfiguration.

God GAVE Jesus a NAME which is ABOVE all name (Phil. 2:9). The transfiguration does NOT make Jesus God. The&nbsp;importance of the&nbsp; transfiguration is God's revelation that Jesus is His SON and God's COMMAND for people to LISTEN to God's SON.&nbsp;

While they do teach the 2nd coming of Christ they do not teach any millennial reign on earth. It is these areas that there is little information on since no one leaves to tell about it except a few.

The Bible does NOT teach that Jesus will have a millennial reign on earth.

Ed

 

[Gunny]

Originally posted by edpobre
Like Jesus, Bro. Felix Manalo TAUGHT that he was SENT by God and BACKED UP his belief by prophecies recorded in the Bible like what Jesus did. Bro. Felix Manalo TAUGHT doctrines from God like what Jesus did.
Ed

Originally posted by edpobre
because it is in the Philippines where this TRUE "Church of Christ" RE-EMERGED.
As anyone can SEE, these doctrinal statements are NOT mandated by the INC Administration but are MANDATED by God THROUGH the INC Administration.
Ed

Iglesia ni Cristo's form of Salvation


Gospel of Iglesia ni Cristo

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by gunnysgt
Iglesia ni Cristo's form of Salvation


Gospel of Iglesia ni Cristo

"My dear friends,

do not believe all who claim to have the spirit, but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere.

This is how you will be able to know whether it is God's Spirit: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus Christ CAME as a HUMAN BEING has the Spirit who comes from God. But anyone who DENIES this about Jesus does NOT have the Spirit of God. The spirit that he has is the&nbsp;ENEMY of Christ; you heard that it would come, and now it is here in the world already" (1 John 4:1-3 Today's English Version).

Trinitarians DENY that Jesus Christ CAME as a&nbsp; HUMAN being. They TEACH that Jesus Christ CAME as God who BECAME a MAN.

Do Trinitarians have the Spirit of God? The Bible says NO! Those who PERSECUTE the Iglesia Ni Cristo are TRINITARIANS. Should you believe them? The Bible says NO!

Ed



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