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Where is the logical consistency behind Christianity?
I'll take this as an admittance that you have no argument. That you don't know why it is ethical for us to be cursed with a taint based on the actions of our ancestors.Who are we, with our flawed minds, to question the ethicality of God, or His reasoning?
Yes. Part of being human is to question. God's plan, by your own assertion directly causes the eternal suffering of billions of people. That is something that should not be glossed over or ignored.He had an eternal plan from the start of Everything. Can we really question what He wants to accomplish with this plan? He allows what He does for reasons only He knows. Again, our flawed minds do not have any business whatsoever questioning a Being like God.
Being exposed to Christianity, being aware that Christianity exists does not mean that you believe Christianity is true. Much of the planet is aware that Christianity as a religion exists but that does not mean that people, individuals have good reason from their understanding to believe that it is true.God spread his Gospel to the ends of the Earth for this very reason. Now, the Bible makes small hints (I don't really have the time to dig up specific passages) that those who have not heard the Gospel before their death are treated differently than those who have heard it. If you've heard the Gospel, and you've chosen to reject Christ, then you get your just rewards at the end, like everybody else does.
You do not choose to believe in things. Belief is a conclusion effected by one's own exposure to specific evidence and reasoned argument. I cannot just believe that 1+1 = 3. I have to be convinced that such is true. Similarly I would have to be convinced that Christianity is true before I could accept vicarious redemption.Nobody goes to Hell without knowing why. If you heard the Gospel and chose not to believe, that isn't His fault, but yours.
I have no reason, from my perspective, to preference Christianity over Islam. That you do yourself is, by your own argument taking a risk and betting against Islam being true.If you choose to not believe in Christianity, that is a risk you take, despite all of the evidence out there that points to what the Bible says as being true.
Do not accuse me of lying. I do not believe that Christianity is true.You've been told of the consequences of unbelief, so there are no excuses once you're there. I don't say this to be mean, I'm saying this lovingly hoping that you will re-think your stances on this.
What are your true reasons for disbelieving?
An entity that institutes a scenario where billions of people are tortured for eternity is an entity not worth worshiping.He does what He does for a reason. He created all things, and He does with his creation as He wills. And I still think you've a bit of a sour mindset about the whole thing, and I'm trying to understand why. You're deliberately twisting words around to make God sound bad or something, as if you've something personal against Him. I'm just trying to understand where all of the snide language and anger towards Him is coming from.
I don't believe in Christianity because I don't believe that Christianity is likely to be true.Again -- why do you truly reject Him? Is it because you don't like the idea of living a live away from the sins you've come to enjoy? Is it because you have a misunderstanding about what Christian Life is really supposed to be about? Is it because you just want to be rebellious? Is it because you just simply hate those who call themselves Christian?
I'm trying to understand here...
I'll take this as an admittance that you have no argument. That you don't know why it is ethical for us to be cursed with a taint based on the actions of our ancestors.
Yes. Part of being human is to question. God's plan, by your own assertion directly causes the eternal suffering of billions of people. That is something that should not be glossed over or ignored.
You do not choose to believe in things. Belief is a conclusion effected by one's own exposure to specific evidence and reasoned argument. I cannot just believe that 1+1 = 3. I have to be convinced that such is true. Similarly I would have to be convinced that Christianity is true before I could accept vicarious redemption.
I have no reason, from my perspective, to preference Christianity over Islam. That you do yourself is, by your own argument taking a risk and betting against Islam being true.
If Islam turns out to be true does that mean you deserve eternal torment?
Do not accuse me of lying. I do not believe that Christianity is true.
I also will not be intimidated, threatened into pretending otherwise.
An entity that institutes a scenario where billions of people are tortured for eternity is an entity not worth worshiping.
I do not think you truly grasp the implications of what you believe. If it is true that Hell exists and that all Non-Christians (Or Non-Muslims if Islam is true instead) are destined to enter hell by consequence of being imperfect then we have a situation where billions upon billions of people are being tortured, for eternity. Nothing in the history of human endeavour comes close to the carnage of such a system. You believe that to be just. You believe that the systematic torture of an entire species, for the crime of being that species deserves to be tortured for eternity. You believe that the only way out of that torture is to believe a specific story and pledge your allegiance to the protagonist of that specific story. This 'solution' causes the ignorant and the skeptical to be abandoned to their fate of being tortured for eternity.
I don't believe in Christianity because I don't believe that Christianity is likely to be true.
I reject the Christian world view because I find it to be unethical.
We don't worry. Christianity is untrue to me. I don't toss and turn at night sweating over the prospect of heaven or hell anymore than I do concerning Islam.
The problem is that what you believe in, what you endorse is morally reprehensible. If it is true that Hell exists and that all Non-Christians (Or Non-Muslims if Islam is true instead) are destined to enter hell by consequence of being imperfect then we have a situation where billions upon billions of people are being tortured, for eternity. Nothing in the history of human endeavour comes close to the carnage of such a system. You believe that to be just. You believe that the systematic torture of an entire species, for the crime of being that species deserves to be tortured for eternity. You believe that the only way out of that torture is to believe a specific story and pledge your allegiance to the protagonist of that specific story. This 'solution' causes the ignorant and the skeptical to be abandoned to their fate of being tortured for eternity.
This isn't ethical. If your belief system is true I see no reason why your God is worthy of worship and no reason why I should consider you an effective ambassador of morality.
So are you saying it was a good thing that your mother committed suicide? That there was no better outcome in that scenario?
Presumably you really mean "trust in God's plan or suffer eternally forever".
If that entity believes it acceptable to curse people with eternal torture for the 'crime' of being imperfect on the basis that our ancestors did something then yes."Ethical" ... by whose standards? Yours? Those of other Men? Are you truly saying that you think yourself to be a better judge of ethics and standards than a being like God?
Then on what basis can you reasonably argue that you are moral? You just follow orders.I'm not going to apply my flawed reasoning of "ethics" to anything God does -- that is not my business, that is not my place. That is for God Alone to do.
Yes he does. He sets out the standards for entry to hell and he approves of the institution. He is the one being that could end it but elects not to.He does not directly cause the eternal suffering of billions of people, or even one person.
I do not believe in hell. I cannot choose to go to a place that I do not believe in.Every person who suffers Eternity in Hell does so of their own free will.
That's not ethical, that's just following orders.God said we must do one thing, and one thing only: Obey Him. His commands to us change over time, as He teaches us, but at the core of it, is "Obey Me".
No. To demand that of a sentient species is otherwise referred to as slavery.If you created something that had its own free will, would you not want it to obey you?
I'd think that was entirely understandable and expected given that I endowed my creation with free-will.What would you think, if it decided that its reasoning was better than yours, even though it were not as smart as you?
Muslims claim much the same thing. I doubt it on both counts. In any case Christianity is set out primarily to be unfalsifiable which is not an argument in its favour.You can start with the Scriptures. Did you know that the Christian Bible is the only religion's Holy Scriptures that cannot be proven false by true science?
What kind of a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Why, if Islam was true, do you deserve eternal torment? What would you have done to deserve that?If Islam were true, then yes. However, I know that it isn't true, as some of their writings can be proven false.
I do not believe in Christianity because of the lack of evidence and good argumentation I've seen towards it and this stands on both an evidential basis and ethical basis.I never accused you of lying; I merely wanted you to step back and think for a moment as to your real reasons you disbelieve.
Appealing to Pascal's Wager, as you did, is indirectly threatening people with hell.Nor did I ever attempt to intimidate or threaten you to "pretend" anything.
Even if belief was a choice, which it is not, those billions of people do not deserve to be tortured for eternity for having the temerity to reject Christianity. However obvious you think God is, he is not obvious to most of the planet. Muslims have no reason, from their perspective, to accept Christianity as true. Do they deserve nothing but fire and brimstone at death?Again, you've got this odd notion that these "billions upon billions of people" are being tortured because of something they had no control over. Ever since the very start of Human History, God has always made Himself known to his Chosen People and asked them to spread the word about Him so that others would come Home as well.
Known of, but not believe. Most of the world are Non-Christians.Nowadays... the Gospel has been spread to the far corners of the Earth, the Bible has been translated into pretty much every known modern language, and the Gospel is known by just about everybody.
Belief is not a choice and even if it was choosing to not believe in Christianity is not solid grounds to be tortured.Choosing not to believe in it, is not God's fault.
This is absurd. Muslims can make the same useless claim. How do you objectively determine that something has not been disproven?Again, just start with the Bible and go from there. God said from the Beginning at his Word breathed is True. You know how many hundreds of years people have been trying to disprove the Bible? Well.... they haven't. Nor will they. It alone is the only Scriptures that no one can disprove. There's a reason for that.......
You're not giving me a good argument as to why I deserve to be tortured for eternity for not believing in God.Unethical... again, you apply your own standards in the place of God's. But, if that is your choice, that is your choice. We cannot see the whole picture like He does. There are things our reasoning cannot handle, there are things our limited intelligence can't figure out.
Again: We have no business attempting to apply our standards and ethics against God's actions. It doesn't matter if you believe in Christianity or not, most people believe in some sort of Divine Being, or Creator. If you believe in such a Being existing, what makes you think your mortal mind can ever hope to comprehend on said Being's level?
You've missed my point entirely. Non-Christians, from their perspective, have no reason to believe Christianity is true. They do not believe in heaven, or hell, or God, or vicarious redemption and many even believe a different religious philosophy. Why if they die do they deserve to be tortured for eternity? For being wrong? For being imperfect? How can you justify this?Anyone whom God has chosen can be saved regardless of their race, gender, sex, and previous religious affiliations. Even atheists! If you reject Him then you spent eternity separated from Him. The only one to blame for ones eternal suffering are those hard of heart and stubborn.
The self-loathing of humanity and this life is one the abhorrent traits of many Christians that I find thoroughly off-putting. Life means nothing to you. This is just a staging ground.Really? You do not think I'd wish for my mother to still be here? But that would be selfish of me anyway, and it's not my choice. It is good that she has moved on from this broken world. I'm more of a big picture kind of guy and I'm able to put my faith into something bigger than me.
So how is that ethical? Why is moral for people who can't garner enough faith, can't believe in Christianity or have faith elsewhere to be tortured for eternity?What I mean is have faith in the work of Jesus who died for the sin we inherited and trust in His plan for us or reject His free gift and suffer eternally.
Who are we, with our flawed minds, to question the ethicality of God, or His reasoning?
He had an eternal plan from the start of Everything.
Can we really question what He wants to accomplish with this plan? He allows what He does for reasons only He knows.
Again, our flawed minds do not have any business whatsoever questioning a Being like God.
God spread his Gospel to the ends of the Earth for this very reason.
Now, the Bible makes small hints (I don't really have the time to dig up specific passages) that those who have not heard the Gospel before their death are treated differently than those who have heard it.
If you've heard the Gospel, and you've chosen to reject Christ, then you get your just rewards at the end, like everybody else does.
Nobody goes to Hell without knowing why.
If you heard the Gospel and chose not to believe, that isn't His fault, but yours.
If you choose to not believe in Christianity, that is a risk you take, despite all of the evidence out there that points to what the Bible says as being true.
You've been told of the consequences of unbelief, so there are no excuses once you're there. I don't say this to be mean, I'm saying this lovingly hoping that you will re-think your stances on this.
What are your true reasons for disbelieving?
He does what He does for a reason.
He created all things, and He does with his creation as He wills. And I still think you've a bit of a sour mindset about the whole thing, and I'm trying to understand why. You're deliberately twisting words around to make God sound bad or something,
as if you've something personal against Him. I'm just trying to understand where all of the snide language and anger towards Him is coming from.
Again -- why do you truly reject Him?
Is it because you don't like the idea of living a live away from the sins you've come to enjoy?
Is it because you have a misunderstanding about what Christian Life is really supposed to be about?
Is it because you just want to be rebellious?
Is it because you just simply hate those who call themselves Christian?
I'm trying to understand here...
Ends? You know we're a sphere right?
How many people have you killed?
Mockery my dear friend. It makes you and any look so trivial.
Why was hell created?
Why did the man angrily throw out a third of the birds for the act of one bird?Imagine a person who is out there alone in a huge vast plain. Nothing but rolling plains as far as the eye can see. Let's imagine this person has magical powers, and manages to make a small species of animal, let's say, I don't know, cats. This person lives inside a house they built for themselves, and it is absolutely spotless and clean in every imaginable respect.
This person makes a yard for said cats outside of the house, because the person was lonely and they like to watch the cats at play in the yard. Let's say the person has also made, I don't know, small birds that fly about the house maintaining the house for him.
One day, one of the birds (Satan) decides he's jealous of the man, and decides to rebel. The man angrily throws the bird and a third of all the birds, the ones who followed the first, out of the house and forbids them to enter into the house, ever again.
Why does the man (God) let the bird corrupt the cats?The bird named Satan is angry with the man, beyond rage and decides that from now until Eternity, he is going to have his revenge against the man. So he flies out to the yard where the cats are at play, and starts corrupting the cats, one by one. It was the man's original plan, that when the cats fully grow up, that they'd be allowed into the guy's huge mansion, but they can't come into the mansion until this happens.
If you're trying to be accurate to reality here you'd have to note that most of the cats are unaware of the basin of water, or believe that another basin will clean them.But now that the cats are corrupt, let's say the birds put mud all through their fur and made them act rowdy, and gave them foul food so that they go puking every now and then.
The Man doesn't want these things in his perfect pristine mansion; they'll defecate on the floor, they'll puke everywhere, and they're covered in mud.
The man then places a basin of water in the cat's yard, and says "Jump in this basin of water, and stay away from mud and I'll let you in the house when you grow up". Most of the cats refuse to jump in the basin of water (cats hate water, right?). A few do, but most don't.
Your analogy has broken down. God doesn't just exile people who aren't saved. According to you God tortures us for not being saved.Those who don't, the man takes and tosses them out because he can't have them in his house, and they have grown past the yard, he needs to move them to make room for new kittens. So he takes them to the edges of his property, and releases them outside the fence. Those who jumped in the basin, are washed of their mud and display their obedience. These cats, he washes the rest of the way, and welcomes into the house.
If you're trying to be accurate then the exiled cats likely don't know that their maker exists. They were 'corrupted' without any knowledge of said maker.Those outside the fence... they get lonely, they have no food, and they are forever separated from their maker. The man is sad over the fact, but all they had to do was jump in the basin... but they refused, and as such, don't love the man, and don't want to be with the man.
No-one's asking for heaven. We're saying that we do not deserved to be tortured for eternity.Why would God bring an unbeliever into Heaven? Heaven is a spotless place, without sin, without pain, without death, without evil. Those who are disobedient to God don't Love God, they don't desire God, and would have no place being with God.
You've missed my point entirely. Non-Christians, from their perspective, have no reason to believe Christianity is true. They do not believe in heaven, or hell, or God, or vicarious redemption and many even believe a different religious philosophy. Why if they die do they deserve to be tortured for eternity? For being wrong? For being imperfect? How can you justify this?
The self-loathing of humanity and this life is one the abhorrent traits of many Christians that I find thoroughly off-putting. Life means nothing to you. This is just a staging ground.
So how is that ethical? Why is moral for people who can't garner enough faith, can't believe in Christianity or have faith elsewhere to be tortured for eternity?
Most people don't believe that this "free gift" exists.
Why did the man angrily throw out a third of the birds for the act of one bird?
Why does the man (God) let the bird corrupt the cats?
Your analogy has broken down. God doesn't just exile people who aren't saved. According to you God tortures us for not being saved.
If you're trying to be accurate then the exiled cats likely don't know that their maker exists. They were 'corrupted' without any knowledge of said maker.
No-one's asking for heaven. We're saying that we do not deserved to be tortured for eternity.
Also it is obvious nonsense to assume that everyone who does not believe in God somehow would not believe in God if they were convinced. Your analogy does not take into account Muslims, Sikhs, Baha'i, Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Shinto etc.
I've already answered that. Because I believe it to be disturbing that there are people, like you, that are apparently in favour of torturing most of the human population for not believing in God. You may not want it to happen but you endorse such a circumstance as just. That is disturbing to me.It's not my place to justify God's plan. But you missed my original point. If Non-Christians, from their perspective, have no reason to believe Christianity is true and they do not believe in heaven, or hell, or God, or vicarious redemption. Why concern yourselves with what we believe to be true when one dies? If your way of thinking is true, wouldn't everyone be just fine or whatever it is you believe happens after death?
No you're not. You just called it as a good thing that your mother moved on from this "broken world".So you're pro-life then? That's good! So am I.
I would not expect my earthly father to torture me. If I rejected my father, now, it wouldn't give him the right to come to my house, take all my belongings and torture me. That would be are more appropriate analogy.God created us to have a relationship with Him for eternity. If you rejected your earthly father can you expect him to still give you all the things you think you deserve for a 'comfortable' life?
None of them deserve to be tortured for that.Most people are wrong about a lot of things.
You did not specify that part.Because that third of the birds were aiding and abetting, and were allies with the one who turned evil.
That's not moral. That's treating the cats as guinea pigs. Testing their reactions and exiling them if they don't satisfy is unstated criterion.Perhaps he wants to test the cats to see what they will do? Perhaps he knows that the cats who overcome the trials will be his absolute best friends?
Yes I do.A lot of people will tell you that Hell is a place of torture... and you use the word torture a lot.
Whether or not God directly or indirectly tortures is irrelevant. Whether or not God directly sends people there personally is irrelevant. Whether or not the torture is more akin to psychological torment or anguish is irrelevant. God allows billions of people to go to a realm of suffering simply for the crime of being born human.The only person to speak about End Times Hell (which is not the same as Hell before the End Times!), speaks of the "Outer Darkness", and "Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth" and it is once referred to as "A Lake of Fire".
Some preachers believe that God Himself doesn't directly torture people, it is merely the separation from God that does that. A lot of Christians talk about a "God-Shaped Hole" that every man and woman were designed with, and the longer we're away from Him, the more we turn to the World to fill that hole, but nothing in this world could ever do it effectively. That's why a lot of unbelievers are constantly twitchy and itchy, going this way and that, looking for that something to scratch the itch they know they have, but can't find or get.
No, I don't yet that most people do believe in a divine being isn't good enough for God. No, according to you they must believe specifically in him and no-one else.Again, most people believe in some sort of divine being. Surely you don't think this is mere coincidence?
Then God could take some of the responsibility for allowing Satan to have such an impact on humanity.There are people who lived in isolation who believe there's a God out there somewhere. It comes back to that "God-Shaped Hole" that people talk about. We were designed with it, so that we might seek Him naturally. Of course, Satan steps in, and creates a bunch of false religions to throw the vast majority off track. But like anything Satan creates, it will 1). Lead people away from God, and 2). Deny Christ, because that's He's the singular way to find God, and 3). Be mostly truthful, but have a lie hidden in there somewhere.
Why does God make it so easy to enter hell?It is a common saying that Satan is usually 99% truth and 1% lie. The 1% lie is what kills you.
To be allowed to say "Non Serviam" without being tortured for it. That's all.Could you please answer the question, anyways? I'm curious as to what you'd ask for, if you could ask for anything in such an environment.
So why should the cat be punished simply for being wrong? Their intentions are good.It does, actually. In my analogy, assume the Evil Bird (Satan) convinces the cats that the Basin of Water is bad and that rolling around on the ground, rubbing up against the fences, etc can cleanse the mud and make them acceptable to the man instead.
Hi Dear,I deny Jesus as a savior of mankind, but I do think historically speaking, he was a real person. I find it extremely unlikely there is a God of any kind, even more unlikely a god that actually "loves" his creation and for some reason cares so much if people love him back. And to make it clear too, I don't believe in the devil either. I'm an honest and caring person, I've never done an "evil" thing my entire life. With that all said, would I go to hell?
Were they perfect when He created them and then somehow lost their perfection?God didn't create us to fail. God didn't create us to fall short of His expectations. We weren't "born sick and ordered to be well".
God created Adam and Eve to be perfect, "in His image"
Well, so much for perfection.... This included a free will. God gave Adam one single commandment: "Do not eat the Forbidden Fruit of the Knowledge of Good & Evil".
One minor detail God must have overlooked...Satan, who existed before Adam, enticed Eve to break the Commandment,
Of course, the woman messed things up... What more could I expect from an old book?and then Eve convinced Adam to do the same, an in doing so, bestowed themselves with the knowledge of Good and Evil.
He couldn't just forgive them? I mean... It was one mistake and it wasn't even their fault, really. They were duped by the talking snake. If you ask me, it sounds like they were set up by God and the snake was in on it too. Those two are probably working together against us.God then pronounced a curse on the Earth, the curse of Death, and ever since, the Sin Nature is passed down from Parents to Offspring, for the rest of human history.
But not enough to forgive.However, even though He cursed the Earth, He still loved his creation.
That He set up for them to eat. Another thing, why not bring a savior in right away? Why did He wait so long to bring in Jesus?He gave Commandments unto Moses (Mosaic Law) of things they could do to please Him, and to atone for the Sin Nature they inherited from Adam and Eve's transgression of eating of the forbidden fruit.
And He didn't see this coming? Again, why wait for it to happen? This is a very shortsighted being you're describing here.However, He did so to teach us that Laws and Works can't save us. It didn't take long for Israel, His chosen people, to backslide and debase themselves with a multitude of sins.
Thanks guys. Way to screw over the entire human race and mess up all of creation. Even though we all know they were deceived, that's still their fault somehow.God eventually destroyed most of Israel, saved a remnant of the people, and gave them every opportunity to repent and turn back towards Him. A few did.
Awhile later, he sent Jesus Christ to the earth, the Son in human flesh, to fulfill the Mosaic Law, and to establish a New Covenant. God Knows that Man cannot be Holy on their own. It is impossible -- all mankind is corrupted with sin (thanks to Adam and Eve).
Where did Satan come from? Was he not created by God?God didn't create this sin, Satan did.
So easy, it took Him a thousand years to figure it out!After showing us why we needed a savior (the fact that our Sin Nature inherently tells us to rebel against laws, therefore making laws is the wrong thing to do), He sent the Savior, so that we could have THE easiest way to find Him in Heaven after our Earthly life is done.
Awesome. I just have to give up my intellectual integrity and lie to myself so I can be saved. Hallelujah!He made it so ridiculously easy... you just accept Christ, Repent for your sin, and have faith that He will wash all of your sins away and all will be forgiven.
And why do I want any of this?That's all you need to do. Believe He died on the cross as the Perfect Sacrifice for our Sin, and Repent for said Sin, and He will take care of the rest. He'll send the Holy Spirit to dwell within you, which will act as your guide and comforter, which will justify you and save you from His judgment, and over time, the Holy Spirit will sanctify you, making you more and more like Him.
Quite the pickle He's in. How ever would an infinitely able being resolve this?The whole thing about Christ is the idea of cleansing ourselves from the Sin Nature that we all have from birth. God didn't create this Sin Nature; He wants to save us from it. However, He also wants all mankind to have free will, to choose their own destiny.
Why? Why must it be that way? That seems so utterly pointless, petty, evil, and thoughtless that I don't even want to worship or get to know such a being who would damn His creation to their worst fears for ever and ever because they don't believe that an invisible man exists. What a terrible, horrible doctrine to accept as reality.Those who choose to keep their Sin Nature will reap the "rewards" that brings -- an Eternal separation from God in the "Outer Darkness" where there will be "Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth", the very same place Satan and all of the Demons will eventually end up.
It isn't so much "I don't want to take the remedy." As it is "I don't think this remedy these people are offering is going to solve any problems in the afterlife because I don't believe there is any afterlife."It isn't "He made us sick and orders us to be well", it is more like "He made us perfect, Satan corrupted us, He wants to heal us, and He gave us an easy remedy, but most don't want to believe in something so simple so they refuse to take the said Remedy".
I deny Jesus as a savior of mankind, but I do think historically speaking, he was a real person. I find it extremely unlikely there is a God of any kind, even more unlikely a god that actually "loves" his creation and for some reason cares so much if people love him back. And to make it clear too, I don't believe in the devil either. I'm an honest and caring person, I've never done an "evil" thing my entire life. With that all said, would I go to hell?
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