If ID is a theory

[FadingWhispers3]

Does the universe operate in a random, chaotic manner or is there a design?

http://hci.ucsd.edu/102a/readings/Learning About Life.htm

"Among living systems, there are many examples of decentralized phenomena. As ants forage for food, for example, their trail patterns are determined not by the dictates of the queen ant, but by local interactions among thousands of worker ants. In the immune system, armies of antibodies seek out bacteria in a systematic, coordinated attack--without any "generals" organizing the battle plan. The antibodies are organized without an organizer, coordinated without a coordinator."

 

[ThePenguinMafia]

Does the universe operate in a random, chaotic manner

It's certainly moving that way. Life provides temporary order, but then this is only because we have a net contribution to total disorder.

or is there a design?

Yes, but not of the sort you could attribute to an all powerful being. You merely have to look around you to see that there is room for improvement practically every where. It's fairly obvious that we've been designed by circumstance... Natural selection, if you will.

i.e. does your heart pump blood into a tree or into your liver and why? is it random chance or does it do it for a purpose, a design, in order to cleanse the blood?

It pumps it into the rest of the body. Why? Because survival of the fittest requires survival for traits to be passed on. If you died, how could you pass on your genes?

if your heart pumped your blood into a tree what purpose would that serve?

I can't imagine any. That's why it doesn't do it.

you can look at the entire universe and see everthing is not chaotic but has a design.

From a physical perspective it's very chaotic. What other perspective is important?

Your blood flows to your lungs to receive the oxygen given off by trees.

I could be pedantic here, but I'll let you have that.

It is by design that trees feed the air so you can breath their oxygen to feed your blood and not that your blood gets fed into trees.

Photosynthesising organisms were here before us. We adapted to the changes in environment caused by oxygen rather than them producing oxygen for us. That's why Eukaryotes took so long to arise; they lacked the oxygen.

Therefore, in order to have a design you need a designer.

The design is far better explained by natural selection than by an all powerful creator who produced heavily flawed organisms for the lulz of it. The designer is nature; a powerful but altogether unintelligent entity which lacks the abilities attributed to god.

This implies intelligent thought for a design cannot be planned by an accident.

Evolution occuring after changes in environment implies no planning at all.

Look at the universe and experience Phred, chaos causes destruction but the design of the universe is for life.

The design of the universe is for life? So why is there so little life in it?

Nothing has ever been made by exploding bombs

The discover of new elements using this method somewhat contradicts your statement.

but an almost endless supply of things have been made by design.

And an even more endless supply has not.

The design theory is better science than accidents by random chance theory. Order has a design but, to the contrary, nothing is randomly causing accidents and making order.

I suggest taking basic chemistry classes, especially ones involving thermodynamics. It may help you get by some of your misunderstandings.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Does the universe operate in a random, chaotic manner or is there a design?

http://hci.ucsd.edu/102a/readings/Learning%20About%20Life.htm

"Among living systems, there are many examples of decentralized phenomena. As ants forage for food, for example, their trail patterns are determined not by the dictates of the queen ant, but by local interactions among thousands of worker ants. In the immune system, armies of antibodies seek out bacteria in a systematic, coordinated attack--without any "generals" organizing the battle plan. The antibodies are organized without an organizer, coordinated without a coordinator."

Designer does not mean dictator. Even your ants are not randomly floating off into space or exploding accidents but they are each working for a purpose, for a design and that is the survival of the colony. Even your antibodies are working for a design, survival of the organism by destroying the bad bacteria. The ants are not randomly trying to destroy bacteria and neither are anti bodies working for a colony of ants. O-R-D-E-R is the design of the universe not chaos. Chaos cannot cause order, it never has. Why do you want to keep holding onto such a fairy tale as that? If you will accept the fact that everything works by design...for a purpose (not accidents) then you will move toward real science.

 

[ThePenguinMafia]

Designer does not mean dictator. Even your ants are not randomly floating off into space or exploding accidents but they are each working for a purpose, for a design and that is the survival of the colony. Even your antibodies are working for a design, survival of the organism by destroying the bad bacteria. The ants are not randomly trying to destroy bacteria and neither are anti bodies working for a colony of ants. O-R-D-E-R is the design of the universe not chaos. Chaos cannot cause order, it never has. Why do you want to keep holding onto such a fairy tale as that? If you will accept the fact that everything works by design...for a purpose (not accidents) then you will move toward real science.

Yet again, I strongly suggest reading up on thermodynamics.

 

[ChrisPelletier]

Actually, wouldn't the FSM fall under the category of ID? Unless, I suppose, he has no brain.

Well the FSM bible is scheduled to come out soon. We'll find out what it has to say soon enough.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Yes, but not of the sort you could attribute to an all powerful being. You merely have to look around you to see that there is room for improvement practically every where. It's fairly obvious that we've been designed by circumstance... Natural selection, if you will.
.

Make up your mind please. You cannot say there is a design to the universe and say it is also random chance. Either the universe is in order or it is in chaos. It seems obvious you cannot, from a rational mind, admit the universe has no order. But yet you want to hold to the idea that life has no purpose. Why?

 

[Grengor]

Make up your mind please. You cannot say there is a design to the universe and say it is also random chance. Either the universe is in order or it is in chaos. It seems obvious you cannot, from a rational mind, admit the universe has no order. But yet you want to hold to the idea that life has no purpose. Why?

Who says life has no purpse? Maybe an atheist, and not even then in many cases.

 

[ChrisPelletier]

Make up your mind please. You cannot say there is a design to the universe and say it is also random chance. Either the universe is in order or it is in chaos. It seems obvious you cannot, from a rational mind, admit the universe has no order. But yet you want to hold to the idea that life has no purpose. Why?

Swing and a miss. He's not saying the universe is designed.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

The designer is nature; a powerful but altogether unintelligent entity which lacks the abilities attributed to god.
.

How can something be caused by nothing? Where did you get your intelligence from if the first cause (nature) lacks intelligence in it?

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Swing and a miss. He's not saying the universe is designed.

I refer you to his post #22 where he agrees it is designed.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Who says life has no purpse? Maybe an atheist, and not even then in many cases.

keep up with me

 

[Split Rock]

Does the universe operate in a random, chaotic manner or is there a design?

What makes you think that a universe not created by a God would have to be "random" or "chaotic"? Why does the designer have to be your particular God?

i.e. does your heart pump blood into a tree or into your liver and why? is it random chance or does it do it for a purpose, a design, in order to cleanse the blood? if your heart pumped your blood into a tree what purpose would that serve?

I don't know... its your ridiculous senario, why don't you tell us why our blood doesn't get pumped into trees?

you ca look at the entire universe and see everthing is not chaotic but has a design. Your blood flows to your lungs to receive the oxygen given off by trees.

There is plenty of chaos, as well as order. To turn your own argument around, If there is chaos, how can there be a designer?

Therefore, in order to have a design you need a designer. This implies intelligent thought for a design cannot be planned by an accident.

Yes, there is a designer, but why must it be intelligent? Why must it be your God's intelligence?

Order has a design but, to the contrary, nothing is randomly causing accidents and making order.

No one is saying this but you. You keep confusing natural with random.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

From a physical perspective it's very chaotic. What other perspective is important?
.

How so? the sun is just right to grow trees and give warmth, the atmosphere is just right to protect the earth from too much sun and allow evaporation from the sun to make more rain etc. etc etc

 

[ChrisPelletier]

I refer you to his post #22 where he agrees it is designed.

Hmmmm. The wording seems contradictory to me. Maybe he should clarify his stance. Mr Mafia, do you ascribe to a designer, or that natural selection/evolution is responsible? Or both?

I'm just a little confused as to your use of "designed." Were animals designed by a designer or were they "designed" (i'd use different word choices) by natural selection?

 

[ThePenguinMafia]

Make up your mind please.

eh?

My mind was made up throughout that post.

You cannot say there is a design to the universe and say it is also random chance.

Natural selection is the complete opposite of random, if that makes things clearer for you.

Either the universe is in order or it is in chaos.

It is not perfectly ordered nor is it complete chaos. It is neither and both all at once. It is order moving towards chaos.

It seems obvious you cannot, from a rational mind, admit the universe has no order.

True. Lucky for me I never said that, right?

But yet you want to hold to the idea that life has no purpose. Why?

Why should it have a purpose? Do you know it's purpose? Is there anything to suggest that we have one?
I don't want to hold onto this. I simply see no acceptable alternative. If you think atheists like being godless then you're somewhat wrong. I lack the freedom of will to choose my own opinions.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

What makes you think that a universe not created by a God would have to be "random" or "chaotic"? Why does the designer have to be your particular God?

Because the only explanation for the universe, other than evolution, is creationism.

I haven't gotten to what kind of God is the designer. Just to show by logic that an intelligent designer is responsible for the universe. ID does not promote any one brand of religion it only comes to the logical conclusion of an intelligent designer.

 

[ThePenguinMafia]

Hmmmm. The wording seems contradictory to me. Maybe he should clarify his stance. Mr Mafia, do you ascribe to a designer, or that natural selection/evolution is responsible? Or both?

I'm just a little confused as to your use of "designed." Were animals designed by a designer or were they "designed" (i'd use different word choices) by natural selection?

I've been perfectly clear. The designer is nature and circumstance; which lacks any form of intelligence and derives change via natural selection. It's more the illusion of design that anything, and can not rationally be called "intelligent".

 

[ThePenguinMafia]

How so? the sun is just right to grow trees and give warmth, the atmosphere is just right to protect the earth from too much sun and allow evaporation from the sun to make more rain etc. etc etc

You're doing things backwards again.

The trees have evolved to photosynthesise sunlight and our heat regulation has evolved to make best use of the heat. The sun was here first and has not changed itself to suit our needs.

 

[Grengor]

The puddle reshapes itself to fit the hole, not the other way around.

 

[ThePenguinMafia]

How can something be caused by nothing? Where did you get your intelligence from if the first cause (nature) lacks intelligence in it?

Check the origins of the universe thread for the first bit. I'm a medical student, not a physics grad, and admit to not being able to understand physics to any acceptable degree.

I obtained my intellect because of the selection pressures towards it. You need only look at your roof to see the survival advantages of intelligence.