If I have the Respect of every Creature, I have the respect of Evolution?

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I'm going to "wash my hands" of this thread, I'm pretty much done here anyway, I told how I think the order in all of it implies or indicates design and an intelligence or intelligent mind behind it all, etc...

Something doesn't come from nothing, and order does not come about without some kind of intelligence or intelligent mind having been or behind it all, etc, especially "this kind of order" that we see in science and the natural world, or in the universe large and small, etc, etc, etc...

Anyway, you either accept or reject that I guess, but either way, I've said what I was going to say (about that already), etc, etc, etc, and I think I'm done here...

Gasp! and you didn't answer my questions...

 

[pitabread]

Something doesn't come from nothing, and order does not come about without some kind of intelligence or intelligent mind having been or behind it all, etc, especially "this kind of order" that we see in science and the natural world, or in the universe large and small, etc, etc, etc...

If something doesn't come from nothing, then how/where did the intelligence come from that created everything?

 

[Lobster Johnson]

Something doesn't come from nothing, and order does not come about without some kind of intelligence or intelligent mind having been or behind it all, etc, especially "this kind of order" that we see in science and the natural world, or in the universe large and small, etc, etc, etc...

If something doesn't come from nothing, then how/where did the intelligence come from that created everything?

And if that intelligent designer can simply exist uncreated and undesigned, with all of their elements and attributes just existing just because, why can't the universe itself?

 

[Neogaia777]

If something doesn't come from nothing, then how/where did the intelligence come from that created everything?

and @Lobster Johnson,

Let's just try and focus on where or how or where all of "this" came from and came about first, OK...?

And that it all clearly indicates intelligence or intelligent design , K...

God Bless!

 

[VirOptimus]

and @Lobster Johnson,

Let's just try and focus on where or how or where all of "this" came from and came about first, OK...?

And that it all clearly indicates intelligence or intelligent design , K...

God Bless!

It really doesnt.

 

[pitabread]

Let's just try and focus on where or how or where all of "this" came from and came about first, OK...?

The honest answer is that we just don't know. Nobody can as of yet make any definitive claims about the origins of our universe as we know. That's a question scientists are working on.

However, a claim like this:

Something doesn't come from nothing, and order does not come about without some kind of intelligence or intelligent mind having been or behind it all, etc, especially "this kind of order" that we see in science and the natural world, or in the universe large and small, etc, etc, etc...

... is not only unfounded, it doesn't offer any sort of solution to the problem. All you've done is moved it back a step by invoking an arbitrary something to explain the origin of our universe, but now you're left with having to explain the origin of that something. If you invoke the same argument as you made regarding the origin of our universe, you now need something else to explain that something. Then you need another something to explain the something else, and so on...

By this point, it's just turtles all the way down...

So let's go back to that claim you made.

How you do know that something can't come from nothing? What if something could come from nothing? For that matter, what is "nothing"? I mean, truly "nothing"? Does true "nothing" even exist? (Or not exist, I suppose?)

What if order can arise by itself? What if intelligence isn't required? What would even constitute intelligence in this case? For that matter, what is "order"?

You need to be willing to honestly explore these questions before even beginning to make any grand pronouncements about the nature of our universe.

 

[Neogaia777]

The honest answer is that we just don't know. Nobody can as of yet make any definitive claims about the origins of our universe as we know. That's a question scientists are working on.

However, a claim like this:



... is not only unfounded, it doesn't offer any sort of solution to the problem. All you've done is moved it back a step by invoking an arbitrary something to explain the origin of our universe, but now you're left with having to explain the origin of that something. If you invoke the same argument as you made regarding the origin of our universe, you now need something else to explain that something. Then you need another something to explain the something else, and so on...

By this point, it's just turtles all the way down...

So let's go back to that claim you made.

How you do know that something can't come from nothing? What if something could come from nothing? For that matter, what is "nothing"? I mean, truly "nothing"? Does true "nothing" even exist? (Or not exist, I suppose?)

What if order can arise by itself? What if intelligence isn't required? What would even constitute intelligence in this case? For that matter, what is "order"?

You need to be willing to honestly explore these questions before even beginning to make any grand pronouncements about the nature of our universe.

Explain to me how intelligence could not be required, or involved, etc...? or how something, that has apparent order, etc, could come from nothing or complete disorder, etc...?

And you confusing the issues as well, intelligence is intelligence, and order is order, etc, etc, etc... If there is the appearance of order, than it follows that must be intelligence behind it, and/or possibly that it both has, and is by design, etc... If it's all predictable and knowable by math, etc, etc, etc... It has or indicates intelligence and/or design, or a mind behind it all, etc...

If something (else) is required to explain something else, but then something else is then needed to then explain that something else, etc, and then something else to explain that something else, etc, etc, etc, then there is no way we can know about it right now cause we don't know enough about the something else that might have caused that something else, before this something else, etc...

Anyway, we only know about this something right now, and we can only see this something right now, and can only go by what this something is telling us right now, and I think it is telling us order and therefore intelligence, and therefore suggests design or a designer, creator, etc, behind it, etc, or at least and intelligence behind it all, etc...

Whatever made or makes or was before that intelligence we cannot know right now, but I think we can know that there is or was and intelligence behind this something that we are in right now, etc...

If something made or created the creator, then right now, there is no way we can know anything about that right now, the most we can know is only what this something is telling us only, etc, which I think is most definitely intelligence of some kind, etc...

Anyway,

Anyway, and again, Let's just try and focus on where or how or where all of "this" came from and came about first, or what "this something" is "telling us" first, OK...?

And I think that it all clearly indicates intelligence or intelligent design, etc...

God Bless!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Explain to me how intelligence could not be required, or involved, etc...? or how something, that has apparent order, etc, could come from nothing or complete disorder, etc...?

Explain to me how intelligence could come from nothing or complete disorder.

When the waves hit the rocks on the beach, they sort the contents of the beach into big rocks furthest from the sea, smaller rocks nearer the sea, pebbles nearer still, and sand closest to the sea. Order out of disorder by the action of the waves. Where's the intelligence in that process?

 

[Neogaia777]

Explain to me how intelligence could come from nothing or complete disorder.

When the waves hit the rocks on the beach, they sort the contents of the beach into big rocks furthest from the sea, smaller rocks nearer the sea, pebbles nearer still, and sand closest to the sea. Order out of disorder by the action of the waves. Where's the intelligence in that process?

What caused the waves, the moon maybe, or whatever...? then what caused the moon to be were it/was at, etc, to cause the waves, etc, that sorted the rocks, etc...? The way the solar system was arranged in that moment, etc, maybe, etc...? and then in the galaxy, and then in the universe, and then "what" after or beyond that, etc, I say "God", etc, and say God knew and knows and knew "it all", from it's very biggest thing to it's very smallest thing, where it was all gonna, be, go, do, etc how it was all going to interact, etc, like "clockwork", etc, cause He made the "clock", etc, and knew all about the "clock" and had a picture of it all (the clock) all it "gears", parts, etc, in his mind, long before He ever made it, etc, knew how it was all gonna work and go and work out and go and be and interact, and act and react, etc, from before he ever made it, etc, when it was just still a picture in His mind, etc, then He "made it" and "made it all", etc, and "here we are", and "here everything is", etc, etc, etc, and He knows all of all in whatever minute, hour, second, etc, we are on, and where and/or how each piece or part of the (proverbial) "clock" was, or ever is, or ever was, going to "be" at any given point or second in time, or in the each specific (time) frame of the "clock", at any given point in time, etc, cause He made it all, and made the "clock", etc...

Nothing is chance, there is nothing that exists or that happens without a cause that cause it to be and/or exist, happen or "be", etc, or be that specific way or work or work out that specific way, at that specific time, etc, that He did not already fully know all about, etc, etc, etc, knows where it was all going to be how it would all interact, etc, how this would "cause" that, and "that" would then "cause" this, etc, which would then "cause" that, etc, that would interact and "cause" this, etc, etc, etc, going all the way back to "Him", etc, as the original and only true "un-caused" (as far as we can know) "cause", etc...

Cause He "birthed" the "clock" from out of His own self, etc, and this "clock" is Him and is a part of Him, etc, and He is it, etc, although He maybe also goes beyond "it", etc, or what we know and can see right now of "it", etc...

He fully knows Himself, therefore He fully knows everything, at any given point in time, etc, knows every single biggest and smallest piece and everything in-between intimately, and knew all of that/it, and knows all of that/this, at all times and at any given point in time, is all going to act, interact or play out, etc, from before ever making it, etc, etc, etc...

Anyway, I'm going to start repeating myself now, and start to seem to going around in circles, so I'm going to stop there for now, OK...?

Anyway, a "clock" is the simplest way I can describe it, but if you can think of it as one big "machine" made out of all kind of "parts" and then parts that make up those parts, etc, anyway, even much more better, etc, cause that is the way I see it, etc...

Made by just one "designer", or mind, etc, who fully knows/knew it all and each "piece", etc, and the pieces that make up other pieces, etc, etc, etc, so on and so forth, etc, very deeply and very, very intimately, etc, before ever making it, etc, knows how each piece would be behave, act, and interact, that would make the "machine" "alive", etc, etc, etc, nothing He does not and did not ever, fully know about it all, at any given point in time very, very intimately, etc, etc, etc...

Anyway, and, I happen to be calling it a night right now, so I may have to get back to this later, K...?

God Bless!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

What caused the waves, the moon maybe, or whatever...?

The wind.

...then what caused the moon to be were it/was at, etc, to cause the waves, etc, that sorted the rocks, etc...? The way the solar system was arranged in that moment, etc, maybe, etc...? and then in the galaxy, and then in the universe, and then "what" after or beyond that, etc, I say "God", etc, and say God knew and knows and knew "it all", from it's very biggest thing to it's very smallest thing, where it was all gonna, be, go, do, etc how it was all going to interact, etc, like "clockwork", etc, cause He made the "clock", etc, and knew all about the "clock" and had a picture of it all (the clock) all it "gears", parts, etc, in his mind, long before He ever made it, etc, knew how it was all gonna work and go and work out and go and be and interact, and act and react, etc, from before he ever made it, etc, when it was just still a picture in His mind, etc, then He "made it" and "made it all", etc, and "here we are", and "here everything is", etc, etc, etc, and He knows all of all in whatever minute, hour, second, etc, we are on, and where and/or how each piece or part of the (proverbial) "clock" was, or ever is, or ever was, going to "be" at any given point or second in time, or in the each specific (time) frame of the "clock", at any given point in time, etc, cause He made it all, and made the "clock", etc...

Nothing is chance, there is nothing that exists or that happens without a cause that cause it to be and/or exist, happen or "be", etc, or be that specific way or work or work out that specific way, at that specific time, etc, that He did not already fully know all about, etc, etc, etc, knows where it was all going to be how it would all interact, etc, how this would "cause" that, and "that" would then "cause" this, etc, which would then "cause" that, etc, that would interact and "cause" this, etc, etc, etc, going all the way back to "Him", etc, as the original and only true "un-caused" (as far as we can know) "cause", etc...

Cause He "birthed" the "clock" from out of His own self, etc, and this "clock" is Him and is a part of Him, etc, and He is it, etc, although He maybe also goes beyond "it", etc, or what we know and can see right now of "it", etc...

He fully knows Himself, therefore He fully knows everything, at any given point in time, etc, knows every single biggest and smallest piece and everything in-between intimately, and knew all of that/it, and knows all of that/this, at all times and at any given point in time, is all going to act, interact or play out, etc, from before ever making it, etc, etc, etc...

Anyway, I'm going to start repeating myself now, and start to seem to going around in circles, so I'm going to stop there for now, OK...?

Anyway, a "clock" is the simplest way I can describe it, but if you can think of it as one big "machine" made out of all kind of "parts" and then parts that make up those parts, etc, anyway, even much more better, etc, cause that is the way I see it, etc...

Made by just one "designer", or mind, etc, who fully knows/knew it all and each "piece", etc, and the pieces that make up other pieces, etc, etc, etc, so on and so forth, etc, very deeply and very, very intimately, etc, before ever making it, etc, knows how each piece would be behave, act, and interact, that would make the "machine" "alive", etc, etc, etc, nothing He does not and did not ever, fully know about it all, at any given point in time very, very intimately, etc, etc, etc...

TL;DR, but ain't imagination a wonderful thing!

You probably forgot to explain how intelligence could come from nothing or complete disorder.

 

[Neogaia777]

What caused the waves, the moon maybe, or whatever...? then what caused the moon to be were it/was at, etc, to cause the waves, etc, that sorted the rocks, etc...? The way the solar system was arranged in that moment, etc, maybe, etc...? and then in the galaxy, and then in the universe, and then "what" after or beyond that, etc, I say "God", etc, and say God knew and knows and knew "it all", from it's very biggest thing to it's very smallest thing, where it was all gonna, be, go, do, etc how it was all going to interact, etc, like "clockwork", etc, cause He made the "clock", etc, and knew all about the "clock" and had a picture of it all (the clock) all it "gears", parts, etc, in his mind, long before He ever made it, etc, knew how it was all gonna work and go and work out and go and be and interact, and act and react, etc, from before he ever made it, etc, when it was just still a picture in His mind, etc, then He "made it" and "made it all", etc, and "here we are", and "here everything is", etc, etc, etc, and He knows all of all in whatever minute, hour, second, etc, we are on, and where and/or how each piece or part of the (proverbial) "clock" was, or ever is, or ever was, going to "be" at any given point or second in time, or in the each specific (time) frame of the "clock", at any given point in time, etc, cause He made it all, and made the "clock", etc...

Nothing is chance, there is nothing that exists or that happens without a cause that cause it to be and/or exist, happen or "be", etc, or be that specific way or work or work out that specific way, at that specific time, etc, that He did not already fully know all about, etc, etc, etc, knows where it was all going to be how it would all interact, etc, how this would "cause" that, and "that" would then "cause" this, etc, which would then "cause" that, etc, that would interact and "cause" this, etc, etc, etc, going all the way back to "Him", etc, as the original and only true "un-caused" (as far as we can know) "cause", etc...

Cause He "birthed" the "clock" from out of His own self, etc, and this "clock" is Him and is a part of Him, etc, and He is it, etc, although He maybe also goes beyond "it", etc, or what we know and can see right now of "it", etc...

He fully knows Himself, therefore He fully knows everything, at any given point in time, etc, knows every single biggest and smallest piece and everything in-between intimately, and knew all of that/it, and knows all of that/this, at all times and at any given point in time, is all going to act, interact or play out, etc, from before ever making it, etc, etc, etc...

Anyway, I'm going to start repeating myself now, and start to seem to going around in circles, so I'm going to stop there for now, OK...?

Anyway, a "clock" is the simplest way I can describe it, but if you can think of it as one big "machine" made out of all kind of "parts" and then parts that make up those parts, etc, anyway, even much more better, etc, cause that is the way I see it, etc...

Made by just one "designer", or mind, etc, who fully knows/knew it all and each "piece", etc, and the pieces that make up other pieces, etc, etc, etc, so on and so forth, etc, very deeply and very, very intimately, etc, before ever making it, etc, knows how each piece would be behave, act, and interact, that would make the "machine" "alive", etc, etc, etc, nothing He does not and did not ever, fully know about it all, at any given point in time very, very intimately, etc, etc, etc...

Anyway, and, I happen to be calling it a night right now, so I may have to get back to this later, K...?

God Bless!

Jesus said it better than I can, when talking about not being anxious or worrying, He talked about how the sparrows neither sow nor reap nor gather into storehouses, but not one them ever falls to ground, not one of them ever, without or outside your Father God's knowledge (or fully knowing and having already known all about it, long ago), (and even knew and/or "programmed" from the very beginning, for it to (all) happen that way, etc, and everything in-between, knew it all, etc, from before the very beginning, etc), and that, "the very hairs on your head are all numbered" (also), etc, etc... (Matthew 10:29-31) (Luke 12:6-7)...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

You probably forgot to explain how intelligence could come from nothing or complete disorder.

I wasn't the one trying to explain that...

I don't see disorder, etc...

And, intelligence was first, etc...

God Bless!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I wasn't the one trying to explain that...

You asked me to explain how order could come from nothing or complete disorder; given that your alternative is some intelligent & powerful entity, I'm asking you how that could come from nothing or complete disorder.

intelligence was first, etc...

No; that's the fallacy of special pleading.

If you can claim that 'intelligence came first' is a brute fact that requires no further explanation, then I can equally validly claim 'the universe came first' as a brute fact that requires no explanation. All other things being equal, Occam's Razor applies - the Principle of Plurality (plurality should not be posited without necessity) and the Principle of Parsimony (it is pointless to do with more what is done with less), indicate that my version should be preferred.

So, regardless of its ontological and epistemological problems, your claim is redundant in and of itself.

 

[Neogaia777]

You asked me to explain how order could come from nothing or complete disorder; given that your alternative is some intelligent & powerful entity, I'm asking you how that could come from nothing or complete disorder.

You asking me where the intelligence that is beyond this that we can see right now came from, or what created or made it or Him, etc...?

Well, I'm sorry but I don't know the answer to that question...?

I only know what "this shows and tells us right now", etc, and that is an intelligence beyond or behind this, etc... But what is beyond that, or was before that or Him or that, I don't know, and don't know how you possibly expect me to know, etc...?

If you can claim that 'intelligence came first' is a brute fact that requires no further explanation, then I can equally validly claim 'the universe came first' as a brute fact that requires no explanation. All other things being equal, Occam's Razor applies - the Principle of Plurality (plurality should not be posited without necessity) and the Principle of Parsimony (it is pointless to do with more what is done with less), indicate that my version should be preferred.

So, regardless of its ontological and epistemological problems, your claim is redundant in and of itself.

If it's not obvious to you that "this", and "all of this" came from some kind of intelligence, seeing as how it has intelligent order, and therefore intelligent design, and is by design, etc, then I don't know what else to say to you really...?

I thought I made my case clearly, but maybe I did not, anyway, I can't help what I see and I am sorry you either can't, or don't, or won't, or don't, etc, anyway "want to see it" or whatever, and I do apologize for that either way, OK...?

To me it's simple enough for a child to see now, etc, but it was not always to me though anyway...

Anyway, I do apologize if you can't see it, K...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Jesus said it better than I can, when talking about not being anxious or worrying, He talked about how the sparrows neither sow nor reap nor gather into storehouses, but not one them ever falls to ground, not one of them ever, without or outside your Father God's knowledge (or fully knowing and having already known all about it, long ago), (and even knew and/or "programmed" from the very beginning, for it to (all) happen that way, etc, and everything in-between, etc, knew it all, etc, from before the very beginning, etc), and that, "the very hairs on your head are all numbered" (also), etc, etc... (Matthew 10:29-31) (Luke 12:6-7)...

God Bless!

@FrumiousBandersnatch

Did you understand anything I (or Jesus) meant by "this" (above), etc...?

It's maybe too simple and illustration to be a good illustration maybe, maybe....?

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

You asking me where the intelligence that is beyond this that we can see right now came from, or what created or made it or Him, etc...?

Well, I'm sorry but I don't know the answer to that question...?

So you asked me to explain what you can't explain yourself. My point remains, your invocation of a pre-existing intelligence is no more explicable than a pre-existing universe, and so is superfluous, redundant.

If it's not obvious to you that "this", and "all of this" came from some kind of intelligence, seeing as how it has intelligent order, and therefore intelligent design, and is by design, etc, then I don't know what else to say to you really...?

I thought I made my case clearly, but maybe I did not, anyway, I can't help what I see and I am sorry you either can't, or don't, or won't, or don't, etc, anyway "want to see it" or whatever, and I do apologize for that either way, OK...?

To me it's simple enough for a child to see now, etc, but it was not always to me though anyway...

It may come as a surprise, but constantly repeating "It's obvious", is not making a case.

From my position, you appear to be uncritically assuming that order implies intelligence because of your prior belief in a creator intelligence. Simple confirmation bias and begging the question.

If you were able to explain your reasoning we could argue the claim, but you apparently can't or won't - so I suspect there is no reasoning involved. You 'see' it because that is what you are primed to and want to see.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

@FrumiousBandersnatch
Did you understand anything I (or Jesus) meant by "this" (above), etc...?

Your mangled hermeneutics were opaque, but I know the original text; it's basically the claim that the universe is deterministic and God is Laplace's Demon. How that is an argument for anything, let alone relevant, you didn't say.

We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed, if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes.

— Pierre Simon Laplace, A Philosophical Essay on Probabilities​

 

[Neogaia777]

Your mangled hermeneutics were opaque, but I know the original text; it's basically the claim that the universe is deterministic and God is Laplace's Demon. How that is an argument for anything, let alone relevant, you didn't say.

We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed, if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes.

— Pierre Simon Laplace, A Philosophical Essay on Probabilities​

I don't know what Laplace's Demon is, but this is basically what I believe about God the Father, etc... And seems supported by what Jesus said about sparrows, etc, and all the hairs on our head being numbered, etc...

That "Determinism" is the truth when it comes to God the Father and this intelligence that I speak of here, etc...

And I'm not alone in that belief either, many reputable scientists are or have come to believing this, or in this, just by what they observe in science, etc.. If not in a "God", that determinism is true and has to be the truth, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

So you asked me to explain what you can't explain yourself. My point remains, your invocation of a pre-existing intelligence is no more explicable than a pre-existing universe, and so is superfluous, redundant.

It may come as a surprise, but constantly repeating "It's obvious", is not making a case.

From my position, you appear to be uncritically assuming that order implies intelligence because of your prior belief in a creator intelligence. Simple confirmation bias and begging the question.

If you were able to explain your reasoning we could argue the claim, but you apparently can't or won't - so I suspect there is no reasoning involved. You 'see' it because that is what you are primed to and want to see.

I tried explaining my "reasoning", but you won't accept it, so...?

Order, design, whatever, everything being determined and pre-determined by an intelligence, which is what the "evidence" is telling us, etc, or at the very least that "determinism" is true, etc, IMO, there having to be intelligence behind it, that made and/or designed it, set it all in motion, knows/knew it all fully, from the very beginning to it's very ending, etc, etc, etc, but you won't accept it, and even say it's "invalid", etc, so I don't know what else to say, etc...

Anyhow,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

If determinism is true, which I think it is, than there has to a or the One who determined IOW's, and the "evidence for determinism" is staggering...

Many scientists now believe in it, etc...

But many are also very reluctant to say there is and/or has to and intelligence behind it, etc, even though that is what it inevitably leads to and/or implies IMO, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!