If God manifested himself, how would you know that it was God?

[variant]

Not so. The vast majority of claims made leave absolutely no evidence to explain. But this is one that does, and so we have to explain it.

Most of the "evidence" are stories, so if we take those at face value it does indeed require us to have many religions.

The only difference between Christianity and other claims is that Christianity was mainly started by people trying to assert a specific history of events for a brief period. The problem is that the gospels themselves aren't historical works and contain only bits of truth about the time period.

Paul is a better source but he doesn't really give us the history (and wasn't there).

But he was completely unknown outside Palestine in his lifetime, and Palestine itself was considered an unimportant backwater of the Empire.

I wouldn't expect him to be mentioned outside of the area.

There were a lot of people in Palestine though, he seems to be completely unknown even there. Which is difficult to say for someone who rose from the dead and appeared to hundreds of people.

One would think it would cause much commotion if he had some following before he did that. You would think his religious opponents who had the occasion to seek out his death would also propagandize against him in his lifetime. Denounce the idea that they had to kill a religious leader for.

Our first and best source is from an outsider who never saw the man.

I have my doubts about the historicity of that pericope. That doesn't detract from the bigger question of whether Jesus rose from the dead.

Roonwit

Well the gospels have plenty of issues like that. Two are attributed to people who might have seen the events but don't read like eye witnesses complied them.

They seem to invent places that we've no other record of at the time like Nazareth and Aramatheia. We've got anachronisms in the text that read like people who never visited them during Jesus's life like saying there were synagogues in Galilee.

The Pharisees of the time which we do have writings of seem to embrace many tenets of Jesus supposed ministry.

ect.

 

[Roonwit]

There were a lot of people in Palestine though, he seems to be completely unknown even there. Which is difficult to say for someone who rose from the dead and appeared to hundreds of people.

Which writers do you have in mind?

Roonwit

 

[Archaeopteryx]

If you read the Acts when Peter preached the Gospel openly to the Jews, the first group of Jews were first pricked in their conscience, then they were asked to repent, and last they believed in the Gospel. This is and had always been the biblical salvation. If there was no repentance, there was no salvation.

Repent and be saved. This is the biblical command for salvation itself. Nothing to do with a good or bad Christian.

That's how you might define a "Christian," but that's not how other people, including other Christians, define it. A Christian is simply someone who believes in the doctrines of Christianity.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I mean for instance you prayed about an urgent need, and God answered it and supplied you with it.

Take me for an example, I prayed for my family so that the domestic violence could stop. My father was a bad tempered and controlling man for years. God stopped it years later with no effort on my part or my parents' part. My father became a mild tempered man as well. That is an answered prayer.

Yes, I prayed for various things, and sometimes I saw what I perceived to be as "answers."

 

[WoundedDeep]

Yes, I prayed for various things, and sometimes I saw what I perceived to be as "answers."

So you've experienced these things, then what makes other people's theories and arguments more convincing than what you experienced through prayers?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

So you've experienced these things, then what makes other people's theories and arguments more convincing than what you experienced through prayers?

I developed the habit of examining my faith critically and thereby gradually lost it. I also discovered that life without faith could still be rich and fulfilling and that religion was not a necessity to live well.

 

[WoundedDeep]

That's how you might define a "Christian," but that's not how other people, including other Christians, define it. A Christian is simply someone who believes in the doctrines of Christianity.

Not true, I did not define anything, the Bible does. If you do a simple search of biblical texts, you will see that the Bible itself writes that repentance comes before salvation. Anyone who failed to teach that or was not aware of this teaching is misguided and is misguiding others.

No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)

Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. (2 Corinthians 7:10)

Repent and be baptized, every one of you for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38)

Even the OT is full of God's call for repentance among His people. The entire issue of salvation revolved around repentance.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Not true, I did not define anything, the Bible does. If you do a simple search of biblical texts, you will see that the Bible itself writes that repentance comes before salvation. Anyone who failed to teach that or was not aware of this teaching is misguided and is misguiding others.

No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)

Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. (2 Corinthians 7:10)

Repent and be baptized, every one of you for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38)

Even the OT is full of God's call for repentance among His people. The entire issue of salvation revolved around repentance.

So what? The Bible doesn't get the final say on the definition of words. For most common uses, the word "Christian" applies to anyone who accepts the basic doctrines of Christianity.

 

[WoundedDeep]

I developed the habit of examining my faith critically and thereby gradually lost it. I also discovered that life without faith could still be rich and fulfilling and that religion was not a necessity to live well.

A person who is on a quest to know the truth is different from a person who is on a quest to live well. If you questioned your faith based on the motivation of "how do I live well", then I'm afraid you will be persuaded by any logical reasoning and any religion that promises to give you a well to do living. That does not mean you have come to the knowledge of the truth or that somehow the Christian faith is proven false.

 

[WoundedDeep]

So what? The Bible doesn't get the final say on the definition of words. For most common uses, the word "Christian" applies to anyone who accepts the basic doctrines of Christianity.

Repentance unto salvation has always been a basic doctrine for the early Christians. In fact, it is the very first thing preached to the unbelieving mass. To even be a Christian, the unbelievers had to repent. Is that not evident to you?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

A person who is on a quest to know the truth is different from a person who is on a quest to live well. If you questioned your faith based on the motivation of "how do I live well", then I'm afraid you will be persuaded by any logical reasoning and any religion that promises to give you a well to do living. That does not mean you have come to the knowledge of the truth or that somehow the Christian faith is proven false.

That's not what I meant. I include the enterprise of truth-seeking as part of "living well." You misunderstood "living well" as a "well to do living," which is not what I meant. My point was simply that I realised that one need view the world through a theological lens to wonder at the beauty of nature, or to investigate its mysteries, to live a good life.

 

[WoundedDeep]

That's not what I meant. I include the enterprise of truth-seeking as part of "living well." You misunderstood "living well" as a "well to do living," which is not what I meant. My point was simply that I realised that one need view the world through a theological lens to wonder at the beauty of nature, or to investigate its mysteries, to live a good life.

And you are willing to deny everything you've experienced personally in the faith based on what theologians tell you? What if they are wrong? What if they are leading you away from what you truly need?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Repentance unto salvation has always been a basic doctrine for the early Christians. In fact, it is the very first thing preached to the unbelieving mass. To even be a Christian, the unbelievers had to repent. Is that not evident to you?

All one needs to be a Christian, in the common everyday sense of the word, is to believe that Jesus Christ is God's Son. Whether they are repentant Christian or not is beside the point. Whether they perfectly adhere to every doctrine is beside the point. The basic category they fall under is Christianity.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

And you are willing to deny everything you've experienced personally in the faith based on what theologians tell you? What if they are wrong? What if they are leading you away from what you truly need?

What theologians? I never mentioned any theologians.

 

[WoundedDeep]

All one needs to be a Christian, in the common everyday sense of the word, is to believe that Jesus Christ is God's Son. Whether they are repentant Christian or not is beside the point. Whether they perfectly adhere to every doctrine is beside the point. The basic category they fall under is Christianity.

You just denied what the Bible said. Look at the accounts in Acts, every single person who was accepted into the church had an act of repentance and baptism. If a person refused to repent, they were not even baptised or allowed into Christian fellowship. Your definition is wholly unsubstantiated by the Scriptures.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You just denied what the Bible said.

And? The Bible does not dictate our use of words.

Look at the accounts in Acts, every single person who was accepted into the church had an act of repentance and baptism. If a person refused to repent, they were not even baptised or allowed into Christian fellowship. Your definition is wholly unsubstantiated by the Scriptures.

So what? Your scriptures do not dictate how we commonly use words.

 

[WoundedDeep]

What theologians? I never mentioned any theologians.

You mentioned "through a theological lens", clearly you adopted the views of theologians or you formed theologies on your own. Which then is the case?

 

[WoundedDeep]

And? The Bible does not dictate our use of words.



So what? Your scriptures do not dictate how we commonly use words.

What has words got to do with anything? You are in mere denial of what the Bible states plainly.

The Bible stated: If a person did not repent upon hearing the Gospel, he/she is not a Christian. This is the standard used since the time of Acts.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You mentioned "through a theological lens", clearly you adopted the views of theologians or you formed theologies on your own. Which then is the case?

No, a theological lens simply refers to a theology, which is a system of religious beliefs. You have a theology as well. Theology can also refer to the study of God, but I am using the word in the former sense, not the latter.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

What has words got to do with anything? You are in mere denial of what the Bible states plainly.

The Bible stated: If a person did not repent upon hearing the Gospel, he/she is not a Christian. This is the standard used since the time of Acts.

I don't care what the Bible says is the standard. The Bible does not dictate our use of words. If Bill, my neighbour, claims to believe that Jesus Christ is God's Son, I will call Bill a Christian. I don't care whether he has repented or not, the only appropriate label for Bill's beliefs is "Christian."