If God manifested himself, how would you know that it was God?

[Roonwit]

Here's the two minute version: If my friend tells me the supermarket has a sale on tomatoes, I'll take him at his word. If he tells me a dragon breathing fire as he rides a unicorn around the parking lot, his word is no longer sufficient.

But if several dozen credible witnesses report it, and stick to their story even under torture and death, it has to be at least worth giving some consideration to it...

Roonwit

 

[Conscious Z]

But if several dozen credible witnesses report it, and stick to their story even under torture and death, it has to be at least worth giving some consideration to it...

Roonwit

I would still maintain that it is false, but that would be significantly stronger evidence than the "witnesses" in the Bible amount to. These witnesses would be available for questioning, assessment of their knowledge of what a dragon would look like, and clarification of their account. The New Testament writers and apostles did not record their accounts for decades later, and they often wrote about things to which they weren't actually witnesses. They were recording things that had been told to them.

If twelve people wrote me a letter saying that a friend told them twenty years ago that he saw a dragon riding a unicorn, I would dismiss it....even if the letter told me the guy died defending that it happened.

 

[Roonwit]

It was made up after the fact, or true stories got twisted into false ones by religious people wanting to believe. You have been defied.

Can you give any evidence to support this claim, or was it just made up after the fact by atheists wanting to disbelieve?

Roonwit

 

[WoundedDeep]

Does anyone else have issues with the site and logging in? I feel like I login to my email once a week, but I login to this site multiple times per visit.

Yes, it happens to me too. I get logged out by the site when I remain inactive for a certain period.

 

[WoundedDeep]

Now you're making a different argument. We were talking about whether long odds themselves indicate some sort of supernatural intervention. You're now shifting the argument to a Kalam argument.

I merely used the example you gave to illustrate that inanimate things like matter cannot start a chain of events without the work of an external agent. The universe, mostly made up of inanimate particles, cannot form stars and systems without the work of an external agent drawing matter together using gravity or other forces we observe. Just like how metals and minerals on Earth do not form into complex materials on their own for our use.

I still fail to understand why the above is hard to understand.

 

[Belk]

Does anyone else have issues with the site and logging in? I feel like I login to my email once a week, but I login to this site multiple times per visit.

I stay logged in for months at a time. Years even. What browser are you using?

 

[Belk]

I merely used the example you gave to illustrate that inanimate things like matter cannot start a chain of events without the work of an external agent. The universe, mostly made up of inanimate particles, cannot form stars and systems without the work of an external agent drawing matter together using gravity or other forces we observe. Just like how metals and minerals on Earth do not form into complex materials on their own for our use.

I still fail to understand why the above is hard to understand.

Because it is a claim without evidence. It is at best an argument from ignorance. "We do not know of anything that is without cause therefore the universe must have a cause." The problem is two fold. One, we do know of things that happen without cause. Two, using our knowledge of how things work inside this universe does not translate into knowing what happens outside this universe. That does not even get in to the issues of going from this "first cause" to God.

Does that explain it?

 

[WoundedDeep]

Because it is a claim without evidence. It is at best an argument from ignorance. "We do not know of anything that is without cause therefore the universe must have a cause." The problem is two fold. One, we do know of things that happen without cause. Two, using our knowledge of how things work inside this universe does not translate into knowing what happens outside this universe. That does not even get in to the issues of going from this "first cause" to God.

Does that explain it?

I understand that argument, yes. I have some questions for you if you don't mind:

1) What are the things that happen without cause you refer to?

2) If inanimate matter can initiate events like the Big Bang (assuming Big Bang is true), why is such a phenomenon not happening on Earth or even in our own solar system? Why is matter on Earth not initiating some big events that will render life extinct or change the face of the planet?

 

[NannaNae]

So here's a question for all to ponder: Suppose that God manifests himself in some sort of physical or spiritual revelation, to you personally, you and a group of people, or to the entire planet. How would you know that this was God? How would you know, for instance, that it wasn't some sort of alien with super-advanced technology pretending to be God?

A follow-up question for antitheists: If a personal manifestation/appearance of God wouldn't prove to you that God exists (since there could always be another explanation - aliens or whatever), then what sort of proof would you accept that God exists?

great questions Achilles

you know I asked God why he had to wake up the dead ( that is even why there is the book of life , to tell the dead from the alive ) .
and sort of what I got back was . He has or will visit each person at least once. and he has to wake them before condemning to both allow them to argue their case ( like you imagine the ones on this list not wanting a last fight?) but as any court would but also to reveal to each of them when he came to them. I think the saddest part is that I think everyone else gets to weigh in on their verdicts. and knowing how hateful people can get that can't end well either.. so everyone else has a last word about them and their fate because some people really don't think they sin.. but they aren't asking anyone else about that either. now you got to know that is going to get ugly.
But He will prove when He came to each one. be it a dream or in person and or through his prophets with words of personal knowledge that they refused to hear, see or accept .
so sure He has revealed himself and will continue to reveal himself to atheists and anti-theists Just like he did to Akiana and her family. what it comes down to is no one will have an excuse except that they refused his offer and refused to honor him and his Love and his life over and over. they preferred to worship his creation instead of him . which they even know less about that than they know about him. what a mess .
so sure he already has shown himself to them in many ways.

so yes these are some great questions Achilles !

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I merely used the example you gave to illustrate that inanimate things like matter cannot start a chain of events without the work of an external agent. The universe, mostly made up of inanimate particles, cannot form stars and systems without the work of an external agent drawing matter together using gravity or other forces we observe. Just like how metals and minerals on Earth do not form into complex materials on their own for our use.

I still fail to understand why the above is hard to understand.

Obviously it is the God of Gravity, Gravitor, who must be responsible, since natural forces cannot produce anything of their own. Consider lightning as another example. We could try to explain it in terms of natural forces, like electromagnetism, or we could invoke Thor. Which do you think provides a more satisfying explanation?

 

[Belk]

I understand that argument, yes. I have some questions for you if you don't mind:

1) What are the things that happen without cause you refer to?

The most common examples are radioactive decay and fluctuations in the quantum foam.

Not all events necessarily have causes - Iron Chariots Wiki

2) If inanimate matter can initiate events like the Big Bang (assuming Big Bang is true), why is such a phenomenon not happening on Earth or even in our own solar system?

First off I made no claims to what initiated the big bang since we do not know if the expansion of the quantum singularity had an initiating event or what it would be if it did. Secondly the reason the universe is not being created on earth is likely because the universe already exists.

Why is matter on Earth not initiating some big events that will render life extinct or change the face of the planet?

Why would you think that it should? Exactly what events do you think the physics calls for? The only event I can think of that fits the bill of particulars for mass energy transference is the nuclear weapons we have created.

 

[WoundedDeep]

Obviously it is the God of Gravity, Gravitor, who must be responsible, since natural forces cannot produce anything of their own. Consider lightning as another example. We could try to explain it in terms of natural forces, like electromagnetism, or we could invoke Thor. Which do you think provides a more satisfying explanation?

Yeah, you've proved my point. Natural forces are responsible for lightning, and in turn, God is responsible for natural forces. There we go.

 

[Belk]

Obviously it is the God of Gravity, Gravitor, who must be responsible, since natural forces cannot produce anything of their own. Consider lightning as another example. We could try to explain it in terms of natural forces, like electromagnetism, or we could invoke Thor. Which do you think provides a more satisfying explanation?

Have you SEEN Thor? Mmmmmm.... Muscles....

 

[Archaeopteryx]

great questions Achilles

you know I asked God why he had to wake up the dead ( that is even why there is the book of life , to tell the dead from the alive ) .
and sort of what I got back was . He has or will visit each person at least once. and he has to wake them before condemning to both allow them to argue their case ( like you imagine the ones on this list not wanting a last fight?) but as any court would but also to reveal to each of them when he came to them. I think the saddest part is that I think everyone else gets to weigh in on their verdicts. and knowing how hateful people can get that can't end well either.. so everyone else has a last word about them and their fate... now you got to know that is going to get ugly.
But he will prove when he came to each one. be it a dream or in person and or through his prophets with words of personal knowledge that they refused to hear, see or accept .
so sure He has revealed himself and will continue to reveal himself to atheists and anti-theists Just like he did to Akiana and her family. what it comes down to is no one will have an excuse except that they refused his offer and refused to honor him and his Love and his life over and over. they preferred to worship his creation instead of him . which they even know less about than they know about him. what a mess .
so sure he already has shown himself to them in many ways.

so yes these are some great questions Achilles !

Considering his omniscience, God knows exactly the best way to reach each individual and establish a relationship. He does not need to rely on suboptimal methods that he already knows will fail to convince many people (e.g., the Bible). Given that, isn't it God who is without excuse for failing to form meaningful relationships?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yeah, you've proved my point. Natural forces are responsible for lightning, and in turn, God is responsible for natural forces. There we go.

So you concede that Thor controls the lightning?

 

[WoundedDeep]

So you concede that Thor controls the lightning?

What you call Thor, I call God, who controls the lightning through the forces of nature. Does it sound nonsensical?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

What you call Thor, I call God, who controls the lightning through the forces of nature. Does it sound nonsensical?

It sounds superfluous. Why posit a supernatural explanation for something that already has a natural explanation? Do you believe that seizures are caused by demons?

 

[NannaNae]

Considering his omniscience, God knows exactly the best way to reach each individual and establish a relationship. He does not need to rely on suboptimal methods that he already knows will fail to convince many people (e.g., the Bible). Given that, isn't it God who is without excuse for failing to form meaningful relationships?

NO I will let you have that fight with him..

because he did alright / awesome/ perfect by me.

 

[WoundedDeep]

The most common examples are radioactive decay and fluctuations in the quantum foam.

Not all events necessarily have causes - Iron Chariots Wiki

The argument of uncaused event "does not claim certain knowledge that some event do not have causes, which would be difficult to establish scientifically". Therefore, in the absence of evidence as it admits, I can have the liberty to not believe in its validity.

About radioactive decay it says:

"Radioactive decay is determined by quantum mechanics – which is inherently probabilistic. So it’s impossible to work out when any particular atom will decay, but we can make predictions based on the statistical behaviour of large numbers of atoms."

Quantum mechanics is in itself limited, so its not surprising that it cannot predict everything. But the fact that there is statistical behaviour of atoms, it means there is at least something measurable, and that cannot occur unless statistical data is written into the atoms. And we know any form of measurable data is created, data doesn't pop out by itself.

Therefore, much of the without cause arguments are essentially "maybe" arguments, which it itself admits.

That, unfortunately, still doesn't prove that there are events in the universe without any cause.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

NO I will let you have that fight with him..

because he did alright / awesome/ perfect by me.

Oh well, so long as he did right by you. I guess that it makes it all okay for the countless souls that, if your theology is to be believed, are damned to eternal flames for not finding the salvific doctrines believable. So long as you are comfortable.