if god is real, then why are their bad things? PLZ REPLY <3

[In A Perfect World]

Long answer short: free will

Also, consider: steel is forged in fire. What kind of adult does a child who has always lived in comfort, given all he desires, grow to be? Like muscle, character cannot be built up without being stressed and torn.

Try telling a cancer victim that his free will killed him, or caused him devastating pain. Or try telling tsunami victims that their choice not to believe led to their death.

 

[Milla]

Try telling a cancer victim that his free will killed him, or caused him devastating pain. Or try telling tsunami victims that their choice not to believe led to their death.

I didn't say that belief or disbelief was the cause of "bad things" in the world. I don't believe, unlike some people around here, that suffering is a punishment of the specific afflicted people. What I am saying is that if everything everywhere were perfect, we would have little opportunity for spiritual growth.

 

[In A Perfect World]

I didn't say that belief or disbelief was the cause of "bad things" in the world. I don't believe, unlike some people around here, that suffering is a punishment of the specific afflicted people. What I am saying is that if everything everywhere were perfect, we would have little opportunity for spiritual growth.

thanks for clearing it up. nature is just nature. i wouldn't call it punishment or the will of god. just simply random. you don't choose what body your mind assumes. but your genes are predisposed sometimes. is it fair? no. is a deity directly doing it? probably not.

 

[Milla]

thanks for clearing it up. nature is just nature. i wouldn't call it punishment or the will of god. just simply random. you don't choose what body your mind assumes. but your genes are predisposed sometimes. is it fair? no. is a deity directly doing it? probably not.

Well, even if you look at it from a purely agnostic point of view, it is the struggle that creates advancement, yes? Competition spurs on evolution of better environmental adaptations in creatures - creatures that develop in peaceful isolation tend to be easily wiped out. And human innovation is pushed forward by problems - no need to learn agriculture if starvation is not a risk, no need to develop ironworks, bronze, steel, if you are not threatened by warlike neighbors, no need to learn construction if the elements do not damage you. Out of "bad things" can grow strength.

 

[WickedServant]

If you want a good argument you can explain that it is the way of nature, and that disasters bring people closer to god.

god also creates evil for the common good. we can use evil for greater purposes.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

Natural disasters are effects of causes that obey the Laws of the Universe and are chain reactions resulting from events most of us were not even alive for.

100,000,000 people drive their cars, we get acid rain.

Government satelites play with the weather, we get a typhoon or hurricane.

Nasa messes with the moon, we get tidal waves.

[These are purely speculative]

Bless me

 

[Reformationist]

Long answer short: free will

Your explanation for the existance and occurance of bad things is "free will?" That would mean that you believe that free will, by necessity, invariably results in the existance and occurance of bad things. Is that truly your position? If so, does that mean that you think that bad things will happen in Heaven or do you think glorified man will no longer have free will?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[WhenFinallySetFree777]

Try telling a cancer victim that his free will killed him, or caused him devastating pain. Or try telling tsunami victims that their choice not to believe led to their death.

I don't think anyone actually believes that these are caused by the free will of people.

Situations like these, where innocent people are handed tragedies they don't deserve, are what make people wonder, "Is there a God?" I believe that is often part of their purpose. If we lived in a perfect world that God created for us, with no longing or heartbreak, then why would we ever seek God out? We have to understand that God doesn't operate like a system, even a doctrinal one, but exactly like a person. He isn't a machine. He wants to be loved. That's why we're still debating, and killing, and wondering if there is a God and what He's like if there is one. That question was implanted into the very fiber of our being so that we would desire to seek God.

Think about this: God created people in His image, male and female. Both men and women demonstrate certain aspects of God's character. Men are the image of the warrior side of God. Women are the image of the more relational side of God. To paraphrase something from Wild at Heart author John Eldredge that I also believe, the heart-cry of women, their need for relationship and love, has totally convinced me of something: God wants to be wanted. He wants to be sought out whole-heartedly. Not in some overly-sanctified churchy sense, but really sought out, the way we seek out our lovers in the midst of trouble for comfort. True intimate relationship.

That is why there is war, famine, heartbreak, suicide, AIDS, tsunamis, whatever, so that because of the obvious state of imperfection we live in, we are called to seek out something better, so that we long for the intimate relationship we would have with God in this lifetime and the perfect union with Him after physical death.

 

[Nightfire]

If god is real, then why are there bad things?

Another way it might be answered is "because God is not the only thing that is real".

 

[TheReasoner]

Natural disasters are effects of causes that obey the Laws of the Universe and are chain reactions resulting from events most of us were not even alive for.

100,000,000 people drive their cars, we get acid rain.

Government satelites play with the weather, we get a typhoon or hurricane.

Nasa messes with the moon, we get tidal waves.

[These are purely speculative]

Bless me

Indeed. Cause and effect applies.
The nuclear tests France had in the 90s caused thousands of quakes a day for instance. True most of these were too small to be felt. But some were around 6 on richter's scale.
The way we act on this planet, we're BEGGING for natural disasters

I sometimes wonder why people ask "why" on some such issues. We've been begging for them. For decades on end!

A simple example is the Romans making different stuff of lead. Like plumbing (not a smart move)
The effects of the resulting pollution from the production of these things can be traced in the Norwegian glaciers.
We pollute quite a bit more now... When what they made in Italy caused what it did, then how much more will not our current activities damage this planet?

This is not to say that nothing happens without our intervention, but I believe more than we think do. As for the things that happen without us wanting it to, well... Life's life. Bad and horrible things are bound to happen. It's horrible, and while I hope it doesn't happen to me or anyone really, it always will do so. That's what this sinful world is like. It's not perfect. Perfection will only be met in heaven. If there.

 

[Delta One]

Hi Yort mada,

long story short it ended with if God is real then why does bad things happen and exist? then he had to sign offline... this person is a really good kid with an open mind, i'd like for him to start in the right direction how can i answer this question and have a shot with a decent debate?

If your friend is referring to all the pain, death and suffering that we see in the world today, then may I suggest the article Why Is There Suffering And Death? available online at: <http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/death_suffering.asp>.

Notice in particular the part about why, according to the Bible, there is suffering and death:

How can we find a God of love amidst the groaning of this world? By understanding the Genesis account of the Fall, we know that we are looking at a fallen, cursed world. From the Bible’s perspective of history, death is an enemy, not an ally. In 1 Corinthians 15:26, the Apostle Paul describes death as the ‘last enemy.’ Death was not a part of God’s original creation, which truly was ‘very good.’

Death and suffering is the penalty for sin. When Adam rebelled against God, in effect he was saying that he wanted life without God. He wanted to decide truth for himself, independent of God. Now the Bible tells us that Adam was the head of the human race, representing each one of us, who are his descendants. Paul says in Romans 5:12–19 that we sin ‘in Adam,’ after the likeness of Adam. In other words, we have the same problem Adam had. When Adam rebelled against God, all human beings, represented by Adam, effectively said that they wanted life without God.

God had to judge Adam’s sin with death. He had already warned Adam that if he sinned, he would ‘surely die.’ After Adam’s Fall, he and all his descendants forfeited the right to live. After all, God is the author of life. Death is the natural penalty of choosing life without God, the giver of life. Also, because the Lord is holy and just, there had to be a penalty for rebellion.
The Bible makes it clear that death is the penalty for our sin, not just the sin of Adam. If you accept the Bible’s account of history, then our sins—not just the sins of ‘the other guy’—are responsible for all the death and suffering in the world! In other words, it is really our fault that the world is the way it is. No-one is really ‘innocent.’

When people understand the true history of death and other related bad things as being the direct result of man's rebellion against God and not God's fault, then they usually become more open to the message of the Gospel.

There are some other articles available at the Suffering And Death Q&A page <http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/death_suffering.asp>.

May God Bless you and your friend.

 

[AshenK]

I love the free will argument...but what about natural disasters? i.e. tsunami...earthquake...

Demons

 

[AshenK]

I don't think anyone actually believes that these are caused by the free will of people.

Situations like these, where innocent people are handed tragedies they don't deserve, are what make people wonder, "Is there a God?" I believe that is often part of their purpose. If we lived in a perfect world that God created for us, with no longing or heartbreak, then why would we ever seek God out? We have to understand that God doesn't operate like a system, even a doctrinal one, but exactly like a person. He isn't a machine. He wants to be loved. That's why we're still debating, and killing, and wondering if there is a God and what He's like if there is one. That question was implanted into the very fiber of our being so that we would desire to seek God.

Think about this: God created people in His image, male and female. Both men and women demonstrate certain aspects of God's character. Men are the image of the warrior side of God. Women are the image of the more relational side of God. To paraphrase something from Wild at Heart author John Eldredge that I also believe, the heart-cry of women, their need for relationship and love, has totally convinced me of something: God wants to be wanted. He wants to be sought out whole-heartedly. Not in some overly-sanctified churchy sense, but really sought out, the way we seek out our lovers in the midst of trouble for comfort. True intimate relationship.

That is why there is war, famine, heartbreak, suicide, AIDS, tsunamis, whatever, so that because of the obvious state of imperfection we live in, we are called to seek out something better, so that we long for the intimate relationship we would have with God in this lifetime and the perfect union with Him after physical death.

That's silly. My God has never used any problem to make me stronger. God's Word is the only thing that keeps me strong. (Hebrews 12:2)
Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith, not some problem that the enemy tries use to get the Word of God out of me. (Mark 4:17)

 

[Reformationist]

My God has never used any problem to make me stronger.

Have you never struggled? Never endured trial or tribulation? Do you not believe the Apostle James that these are not simply random events of bad luck but, rather, one of the means by which God perfects us?

Have you never encountered the evils of man while knowing that "though they mean it for evil God has purposed it for good?" Does the providence of God mean nothing?

The entire book of Job relates God's sovereignty in the midst of our trials and that He purposes these very events to draw us into a greater understanding and appreciation for Him.

I respect that His Word encourages and keeps you strong but I doubt that you are so strong that you never struggle. If not to grow in your faith, clearly something for which God would purpose such struggle, then are they pointless events in our lives from which we can and should learn nothing?

God bless

 

[TheReasoner]

Demons

I have seen this way of thinking before. Blaming all things that seem bad on the devil, and thanking God for all things that seem good.
I have noticed how it is especially strong in certain circles. And while the charistmatic churches do have a lot of good in them some of them scare me lifeless.
A philosophy which is dominant in many sectarian and charistmatic circles - not that the two are always together - is the philosophy stating that a man IS soul, HAS a spirit and is IN a body. Stating that the soul is perfect, this then leads to the conclusion that men, once in Christ, are perfect. Based mostly on Paul's saying "My spirit is willing, but my flesh is weak" this philosophy seems to proclaim that perfection is achievable on earth. That as soon as we have Christ all sources of evil and pain in our lives come from without. If you do something bad, it is not YOUR fault, it is the devil. This terrifies me. I used to believe this myself, but I have since seen terrible repercussions of the philosophy. Many people in these circles try to exorcise demons where there are none. Say in the event of a common cold. Or something which stops them from performing some task.
They do not take into account that this is an imperfect world. And often forget that they are imperfect people, capable of error. Capable of evil in their own power, not only influenced by the devil. Unwilling or willing, we commit evil acts. Most often by wanting good.
Evil things, or things which seem evil are not always from the devil. Did the crucifixion of Christ seem evil? CERTAINLY! How about the deaths of the apostoles? Ofcourse they seemed evil. The persecution, it all seemed very evil indeed. But do not forget that if it was not for Christ's crucifixion, we'd all be condemned to hell. The deaths of the martyrs have brought much good with them too. These extreme things have been used by God for great good. As for my own hard times, and I must say there have been a few, I can clearly see God's hand in the dark times. God has pulled me through the valley of shadow of death. And built up a man on the other side a happy and content life could not have forged. Not meaning to boast, it is God's doing much more than mine. But the struggles I have faced have given me wisdom and strength to face more hard times. My own and others'. My hard times have become a blessing to me and others. Ofcourse they seemed evil at the time. But 'no pain no gain' is a saying to which there is much truth. Like with working out, if you do not feel that you live, you will not improve much. If you work out, your muscles are supposed to ache. You're supposed to feel it and strain past what pain you will feel - to a certain point. Life is the same way. Life is a barefoot dance on roses. Many people smell the sweet fragrance, and jump into it, forgetting that roses have thorns. Yes, life hurts. Yes, life brings pain. Do not blame it all on Satan. Because that's not doing neither God, yourself or satan what's due. Pain can have many sources. If you follow God, all types can be used by him. But beware, some will be sent by him. An example is this;
You fall in love with a beautiful woman. You want to pursue her, but God tells you "no". This hurts. It is painful, but you should listen to what He says

As for the disasters in the world, I will not simply hide behind a bush, pointing a finger at the devil. We're fault in a lot ourselves. Natural disasters happen in this world. It is part of how it works. How the wheels churn. Ofcourse the plague was a bad thing when it came. But had it not come, Europe would have been overpopulated now. Yes, it was terrible, but as humans we cannot see much past the tip of our own noses. Remember that. And stay humble, because we do not know the consequences of what happens today. God does, however. And I would rather trust Him, and try to live by His word than to worry needlessly about what I cannot change, pushing blame and pointing fingers when I have no idea what an event will cause in the long run.

 

[Reformationist]

Very nice, God centered post faith guardian. Thank you for sharing that wisdom.

God bless

 

[xr022kbKr02h]

Normally people don't understand this in my experience. But the reason bad thing happen is that we have free will
We have the will to choose between good and evil. God, who loves us will never force neither on us. This is because love cannot be forced. If love is attempted forced, it turns to hate.
So, we have free will, we choose to do bad things sometimes, because we do not see things as clearly as we sometimes wish we should. Or focus too much on our own pleasure. Or want to avenge pain. Or whatever. You know humans, you - like me - are one.

Anyway... Because we have free will, God does not interfere lest we ask him, normally. He lets us pretty much do as we please. For now, we all know that will come to an end. Unfortunately what we want to do is hurting us. And many of us humans don't even care - or know that it hurts us. We, homo sapiens - are as dumb as dodos are dead.

What about some bad things that happen not out of people's chioce?

For example, some people are born into a poor family and fated to be starved to death while others are born into a rich family. Some are born handicapped while others are born with handsome face and well builted body...is this out of free will?

 

[TheReasoner]

What about some bad things that happen not out of people's chioce?

For example, some people are born into a poor family and fated to be starved to death while others are born into a rich family. Some are born handicapped while others are born with handsome face and well builted body...is this out of free will?

Your choices affect other people than yourself. In a perfect society being born with a handicap would not be a handicap. Everyone would care for everyone. This is central to Christian idealism. But, this world is not perfect. Your parents choices affect you. Your grandparents choice affects you too. What your great great grandfather did could have made your family rich, or poor. What your neighbor does affects you... Everything is connected, in some way. Our freedom of choice brigs with it great changes.
As for other things there are factors we cannot affect. But blaming God for all that's bad won't solve a thing,. as a race we strayed from him and we expect him to still make everything perfect?! Isn't that a bit contradictory? I mean, we tell him with our actions and our words that we don't want anything to do with him. And then we procede to whine he does not do anything good for us. It's like a teenager who does not want anything to do with their parents, but still expect an allowance and to be driven everywhere. If we choose to back off from God, we cannot expect him to keep giving us a perfect world. We chose a life apart from him, these are the consequences.

As for good looks vs. hard times, I am yet to meet a very wise and good person who has not struggled.

 

[YoursTruely45]

Hello all,

i'm a christian but i have a young friend who does not believe in god yet his parents make him go to church anyway... which btw has nothing to do with my question =P

me and him was talking and god came up (by me on purpose) i'm like so do you believe in christ or no? he said no i dont believe in anything. i said God has been awsome to me ( i speak of god pretty often to everyone) and he said i can understand why you think he is real and thats fine but i dont.

long story short it ended with if God is real then why does bad things happen and exist? then he had to sign offline... this person is a really good kid with an open mind, i'd like for him to start in the right direction how can i answer this question and have a shot with a decent debate?

by the way i couldnt find the right forum for the question so i figure non believer is close enough for a question like this ... i'm sure their are skilled debaters in here.

Thanks, yort

Alot of times the bad things happen because God is trying to teach us a lesson. Usually, a lesson that we need to learn!

My Example:
When I was 15 and in High School I was a cheerleader and I threw my back completely out. At the time I was a "christian" I talked the talk but didnt walk the walk. I would go to church just to appease my family. So when I threw my back out it was kind of like a learning experience for what God had for my life. I became a stronger Christian and I became even more into the word then ever before!

 

[JesusFreak08]

Also I have been reading the 'Purpose Driven Life' God uses struggles and hard times in our life to bring us closer to him. He wants us to learnt to turn to him when in doubt, and he wants to use our hard times to strengthen our realtionship with him

 

[bethdinsmore]

Hello all, ...long story short it ended with if God is real then why does bad things happen and exist? then he had to sign offline... this person is a really good kid with an open mind, i'd like for him to start in the right direction how can i answer this question and have a shot with a decent debate?... Thanks, yort

Yort, so good that you're caring for your friend and trying to find answers for him. I may be mistaken, but I believe your questions deal with two issues: "If God is real" and "Why do bad things happen".

First, you might like to read or print out this Radio Bible Class pamphlet on "Why would a good God allow suffering". www.rbc.org/ds/q0l06/

So I won't deal further with that issue, but with the "If God is real" issue. You might want to check out information in Christian Evidences to deal with this. Here's something I wrote earlier to a similar question, that might help you make this search easier for your friend. Please skip all the following if you don't think it applies.

"I came to my personal belief not by a leap of faith but by the intellect.. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Me." So that verse boils down to the famous question, "Is Jesus the Lord, a liar, or a lunatic?"

Here's how I arrived at the belief that the Bible is the absolute truth and therefore that the God of the Bible is the one true God: "I was raised in a liberal "Christian" church that taught there were mistakes in the Bible. I swallowed it whole, never asking them to show me the mistakes so I could check them out for myself. Instead, I became an atheist for about 12 years. Then I made the mistake of playing the Ouija Board, and became demon oppressed. I quickly realized the reality of the supernatural world. More than that, I would pray when the strange things would happen, and they would immediately stop for a time. That proved to me that there had to be a good supernatural being who had dominance over the evil.

As I was terrified, I started searching various religions to see where the truth was. The puzzle pieces finally fell into place when I read The Late Great Planet Earth, a book on Christian Evidences about Biblical prophecy. It showed that past prophecies had been fulfilled 100% of the time, and convinced me there had to be a God guiding the writing of the Bible. There was a Gospel invitation in the book, and I accepted Christ as my sinbearer at that point.

I have been saved for 33 years now and it just gets better with time. The God of the Bible has never, ever let me down. He has changed me profoundly, and there have been many, many miracles, both small and large (but I am not using that as proof, as many religions have miracles, though they don't have the external proofs I have mentioned). It helps me personally to interpret the Bible this way: I take everything literally, unless it's impossible to do so (there are some figures of speech, such as when the Bible says the mountains were dancing for joy). By interpreting the Bible this way, I find it's never let me down. The Bible itself says it is without error [and Jesus Himself quoted many of the writers].

Here is the central foundation that makes the Bible and its God unique from all religions. In the Bible it says that the true God draws all people to Himself, and that the Holy Spirit convicts them of sin, righteousness, and judgment (in other words, of the need for a Savior). I have come to realize that Christianity is a relationship, not a religion. It is unique- we do not obtain Heaven by our own good works, contrary to the beliefs of all religions. Salvation is based on Christ's goodness, not our own. We receive eternal life when we make the decision to trust in Christ alone to pay for all our sins on the cross, (past present and future), and trust in Him to take us to Heaven one day, without any good works of our own. (Rom. 3:23, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:8-9, I Peter 3:18, and John 3:16). The Bible says also that we cannot lose our salvation (see "gift" in Romans 6:23 and Romans 11:29 and also John 10:28-29 - we can't even take ourselves out of God's hand). So, instead of depending on our good works to save us, we simply receive eternal life by making the decision to trust Christ as our sinbearer. It’s not our works, it’s a decision.

External Proofs: As Scripture says, "You will seek me and find me when you search for me with all your heart." I would like to give some titles that might be of interest to you. Some of them are out of print, but could be ordered through a Christian bookstore or some place like Amazon. An excellent short overview of Evidences (external proofs such as archaeology for the inerrancy of the Scriptures) is the pamphlet "The Agnostic Who Dared to Search." [I have found that it takes extra love and humility when dealing with evidences, since a debate can easily turn into an argument.]

*The Late Great Planet Earth (past and future prophecy)
*Daktar (biography about a doctor in Bangladesh, from which the above pamphlet is taken)
*Josh McDowell's books - the New Evidence that Demands a Verdict, and More Evidence that Demands a Verdict (that one is on canonicity)
*Many Infallible Proofs
*More than a carpenter (proofs about Jesus)
And I am sure there are many more good ones that a clerk at a Christian bookstore could recommend in Evidences or Apologetics (not apologies, but things like cosmology)
A couple of websites are: rbc.org and probe.org

Another book I find helpful is: Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties by Archer. It answers many objections by unbelievers."

Hope something here will be of help - it's long, but I generally answer questions by the "shotgun " method - i'm more likely to hit something that way.

I'll pray for you and your friend

Aloha in Jesus