If God is all knowing...

[sullivanstud7]

It has been said, and I am sure many of you all know, that God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. This would mean that he is all powerful, everywhere, and also all knowing. This would include the fact that God can do anything, be anywhere, and know past, present, and future. If these facts are true, answer this question.
Why would God put the Tree in the garden, knowing that man would eat from it? Why would he put it there to tempt man?
Secondly, why would God create Lucifer, knowing that he would turn against and bring evil to this world. Because, if God is all knowing, he would have realized that Lucifer would try to take control of the throne and overthrow God.

 

[meshnaster]

God is able to do anything, He is able to know anything, He is able to be anywhere. This does not mean He is always doing everything, knowing everything, or being everywhere. Part of God's unlimited power is the power to not do things too. Sometimes, God doesn't know things (not because He can't). There are plenty of times in the Bible when God says He didn't know something. Is God lying? No.

 

[apenman]

It has been said, and I am sure many of you all know, that God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. This would mean that he is all powerful, everywhere, and also all knowing. This would include the fact that God can do anything, be anywhere, and know past, present, and future. If these facts are true, answer this question.
Why would God put the Tree in the garden, knowing that man would eat from it? Why would he put it there to tempt man?
Secondly, why would God create Lucifer, knowing that he would turn against and bring evil to this world. Because, if God is all knowing, he would have realized that Lucifer would try to take control of the throne and overthrow God.

God placed the tree in the garden because it was absolutely necessary for Adam & Eve to eat the fruit, it wasn't until then that God said, "look they have become like us, knowing good and evil". It absolutely had to happen for the process of the creation of people to be complete.

When God created the angels he made them as individuals which means they were given the knowledge of good and evil, and the freedom to choose between the two. God knew in advance that some angels would choose good and some would choose evil, but if that choice had been taken away, so would have their individuality, the same is true of us.

Also, Satan did not attempt to overthrow God, that is a common misconception.

 

[The Bellman]

It has been said, and I am sure many of you all know, that God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. This would mean that he is all powerful, everywhere, and also all knowing. This would include the fact that God can do anything, be anywhere, and know past, present, and future. If these facts are true, answer this question.
Why would God put the Tree in the garden, knowing that man would eat from it? Why would he put it there to tempt man?
Secondly, why would God create Lucifer, knowing that he would turn against and bring evil to this world. Because, if God is all knowing, he would have realized that Lucifer would try to take control of the throne and overthrow God.

You have put your finger on one of the (many) logical inconsistencies of christianity. An all-powerful, all-knowing god...who nevertheless doesn't know things and is 'surprised' by the consequences of his actions.

 

[ischus]

You have put your finger on one of the (many) logical inconsistencies of christianity. An all-powerful, all-knowing god...who nevertheless doesn't know things and is 'surprised' by the consequences of his actions.

Is this an inconsistency of Christianity or of Hellenistic religio-philosophy? Do you see these attributes clearly stated in the OT or were they introduced in the NT era?

Would you accept Christianity as plausible if God did not have all the 'omni' attributes?

Just some thoughts...

ischus

 

[The Bellman]

Is this an inconsistency of Christianity or of Hellenistic religio-philosophy? Do you see these attributes clearly stated in the OT or were they introduced in the NT era?

Would you accept Christianity as plausible if God did not have all the 'omni' attributes?

Just some thoughts...

ischus

It's an inconsistency of christianity. The exact source of the 'omni' attributes (ie., whether they are specifically laid out in the OT/NT) is irrelevant; they are part of christian belief. You might well say you believe in the chrisitan god, except you don't believe he's omnipotent; I would say that you don't believe in the christian god, because he IS omnipotent.

So your closeing question is, to me, meaningless. If god did not have all the 'omni' attributes, it wouldn't be christianity.

Would I accept the idea of the existence of a god who didn't have all the 'omni' attributes? I wouldn't dismiss it; it would at least have the virtue that it wasn't inherently contradictory, like christianity is. But, the same as the christian god, I'd say that there's no evidence for the existence of such a being.

 

[meshnaster]

An all-powerful, all-knowing god...who nevertheless doesn't know things and is 'surprised' by the consequences of his actions.

just because he is omni-everything doesn't mean he has to know everything. if you were a parent and your child had a diary, you could read it and know what your child does, or you could not read it. you would have the ability to know whatever you wanted, but you wouldn't actually know. suppose your child wrote in his diary "i will stab myself if my parent says the word 'booger.'" you choose to not read the diary. you say booger. your child stabs himself. you are suprised because you chose to not know something that you were able to know.

kinda like: you are able to pile up rocks, but if you aren't, that doesn't mean you are inconsistant with your nature. your nature allows you to pile up rocks, and your nature also allows you to not pile up rocks.

 

[Blackmarch]

It has been said, and I am sure many of you all know, that God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. This would mean that he is all powerful, everywhere, and also all knowing. This would include the fact that God can do anything, be anywhere, and know past, present, and future. If these facts are true, answer this question.
Why would God put the Tree in the garden, knowing that man would eat from it? Why would he put it there to tempt man?
Secondly, why would God create Lucifer, knowing that he would turn against and bring evil to this world. Because, if God is all knowing, he would have realized that Lucifer would try to take control of the throne and overthrow God.

Well for one thing, the situation was set so that individuals could make a choice;
Satan did not have to choose to rebel against God, Adam and eve were not forced either to eat or not to eat the fruit.

If One likens God to a chess master, he would be one already knows all possible actions a player can make, and is has a winning strategy for any and every action; God would have won with or without Satan's rebellion.

 

[TrueQ]

What does Jehovah stand to win? It's not hard to see that he has every little thing. Even if he didn't, he would've before he made Satan.

It's probably just simplest to say that Christians follow an eccentric deity.

 

[apenman]

What does Jehovah stand to win? It's not hard to see that he has every little thing. Even if he didn't, he would've before he made Satan.

It's probably just simplest to say that Christians follow an eccentric deity.

It's about the creation of individuals. God wants to give the keys to the kingdom to his kids, but we must go through a process first, and it has nothing to do with religion.

 

[angel-of-archs]

It has been said, and I am sure many of you all know, that God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. This would mean that he is all powerful, everywhere, and also all knowing. This would include the fact that God can do anything, be anywhere, and know past, present, and future. If these facts are true, answer this question.
Why would God put the Tree in the garden, knowing that man would eat from it? Why would he put it there to tempt man?
Secondly, why would God create Lucifer, knowing that he would turn against and bring evil to this world. Because, if God is all knowing, he would have realized that Lucifer would try to take control of the throne and overthrow God.

then he wouldnt be a complete god if he didnt create everything,if there is good somewhere,there must be evil

 

[kedaman]

Yes, God is the chess master, he made this chess board Its important to note that his creation is not made out of appearances, and that is why the sceptic necessarily can't understand God. He doesn't do one thing and one point to see what happens next, but all what he does is eternal. Everything is predetermined, but only the chosen last til the end.

 

[Inside Edge]

If god did not have all the 'omni' attributes, it wouldn't be christianity.

Well, not your understanding of Christianity, anyway.

 

[The Bellman]

just because he is omni-everything doesn't mean he has to know everything. if you were a parent and your child had a diary, you could read it and know what your child does, or you could not read it. you would have the ability to know whatever you wanted, but you wouldn't actually know. suppose your child wrote in his diary "i will stab myself if my parent says the word 'booger.'" you choose to not read the diary. you say booger. your child stabs himself. you are suprised because you chose to not know something that you were able to know.

kinda like: you are able to pile up rocks, but if you aren't, that doesn't mean you are inconsistant with your nature. your nature allows you to pile up rocks, and your nature also allows you to not pile up rocks.

God doesn't 'choose' to know things - he is all-knowing. To use your analogy, you can't choose not to know that your child has a diary. You know it already. You can't 'unknow' it. Comparing reading the diary to god not choosing to not know something isn't valid, because he's already read the diary - he is all-knowing. That's what omniscient means - not 'potentially all-knowing' or 'able to be all-knowing', but 'all-knowing'.

 

[meshnaster]

God doesn't 'choose' to know things - he is all-knowing. To use your analogy, you can't choose not to know that your child has a diary. You know it already. You can't 'unknow' it. Comparing reading the diary to god not choosing to not know something isn't valid, because he's already read the diary - he is all-knowing. That's what omniscient means - not 'potentially all-knowing' or 'able to be all-knowing', but 'all-knowing'.

i may have not used the most specific wording, but that's my point: God doesn't know everything. this is not because He is unable to know some things, but just because He decides to not know them. to say that God is incapable of not knowing something is to limit His power. when God forgives, He loses all record of the sins He has forgiven. God isn't all-knowing, He's all-powerful.

 

[The Bellman]

i may have not used the most specific wording, but that's my point: God doesn't know everything. this is not because He is unable to know some things, but just because He decides to not know them. to say that God is incapable of not knowing something is to limit His power. when God forgives, He loses all record of the sins He has forgiven. God isn't all-knowing, He's all-powerful.

God isn't omniscient? Wow, this will be news...God doesn't know everything.

I don't know where you got that idea, but it's not biblical, and it's not orthodox christianity.

 

[Inside Edge]

I don't know where you got that idea, but it's not biblical, and it's not orthodox christianity.

I appreciate that you added the "orthodox" descriptor to that sentence. Now if you could please explain how his concept of God is not biblical?

 

[meshnaster]

God isn't omniscient? Wow, this will be news...God doesn't know everything.

I don't know where you got that idea, but it's not biblical, and it's not orthodox christianity.

it is very biblical. God is often saying that He doesn't know things. He said that He didn't know what was happening in sodom and gomorrah, so He was gonna go down there and look. He says He's suprised at what people do when they ture from Him in the old testament. He says He's suprised at lack of faith in areas. God Himself says He doesn't know everything, so how can that notion be unchristian?

 

[The Bellman]

it is very biblical. God is often saying that He doesn't know things. He said that He didn't know what was happening in sodom and gomorrah, so He was gonna go down there and look. He says He's suprised at what people do when they ture from Him in the old testament. He says He's suprised at lack of faith in areas. God Himself says He doesn't know everything, so how can that notion be unchristian?

Try it out on any christian church. The idea of a non-omnipotent/omniscient god would be laughed at.

 

[meshnaster]

Try it out on any christian church. The idea of a non-omnipotent/omniscient god would be laughed at.

i discussed this with a group of people who go to church. we all decided it's a very biblical thing. if God says it Himself, then i don't care who laughs at it, cuz it's still the truth.

but yeah, a lot of people would be very hesitant to accept it. but i think it's only because they haven't studied it as much as they've studied other things that are probably more important to study. and again, it's not because God is not all-powerful that He doesn't know everything. it is just because He decides to not know. He can find out if He wants.