"If God Exists, Why Does He Allow Evil?"

[Dave Ellis]

I would think they fall a little short of an "objective standard" by which one can establish that a particular action is evil or good. For example...rape...where does that fall according to the ten commandments?

This one example illustrates the larger problem of trying to claim an objective standard exists...in order to encompass infinite numbers of actions/behaviors, the standard itself must be infinitely long.

I don't know if I agree with that, after all, there is only a finite number of actions someone can perform. Granted, that would be a huge number, but still finite.

Instead I think the objective basis for morality is consequences of your actions. Any definition of morality would include something along the lines of acting for the common good.

Consequences are objective, if your belief system is causing objective harm, then it can be said to be objectively immoral.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yea, why not?

If you look at history, some heinous things have been justified in the name of "the greater good" or "we've always been like this".

This is one legacy of Christianity- it gives a solid grounding in Western culture to the concept of individual rights.

 

[bhsmte]

If you look at history, some heinous things have been justified in the name of "the greater good" or "we've always been like this".

This is one legacy of Christianity- it gives a solid grounding in Western culture to the concept of individual rights.

So what? Many heinous things have been justified based on religious beliefs as well. Does this mean that all religion is bad?

 

[selfinflikted]

If you look at history, some heinous things have been justified in the name of "the greater good" or "we've always been like this".

Sure. But I'm not advocating anything heinous. Anything can be twisted or construed to commit heinous atrocities - look at the history of religion for crying out loud!

This is one legacy of Christianity- it gives a solid grounding in Western culture to the concept of individual rights.

????

Really? In the U.S. Christianity is often used to thwart individual rights, in my opinion.

 

[Dave Ellis]

If you look at history, some heinous things have been justified in the name of "the greater good" or "we've always been like this".

This is one legacy of Christianity- it gives a solid grounding in Western culture to the concept of individual rights.

Yeah, like gay marriage.

Oh wait, no... Christians are largely leading the charge against those individual rights, kinda like how they did with desegregation, abolition, the right of women to vote, and pretty well every other civil rights issue I can think of.

 

[selfinflikted]

Yeah, like gay marriage.

Oh wait, no... Christians are largely leading the charge against those individual rights, kinda like how they did with desegregation, abolition, the right of women to vote, and pretty well every other civil rights issue I can think of.

 

[bhsmte]

If you look at history, some heinous things have been justified in the name of "the greater good" or "we've always been like this".

This is one legacy of Christianity- it gives a solid grounding in Western culture to the concept of individual rights.

You can't be serious with that last sentence?

 

[hankroberts]

Sorry to everyone for the extended delay: among other pressing issues that have taken my time, I wanted to go back and see if the accusation that I’d missed an explanation was accurate. Having gone back and reviewed all those interactions, I have not missed anything that I can find. However, I was able to identify the source of the misdirection of the conversation.

So, in a last-ditch effort to return to the original topic, I refresh the point:

This is not a discussion of whether belief in God is justified. I enjoy that discussion and would be more than happy to engage it with anyone. But it is not the topic here.

This is not a discussion of whether an absolute moral standard exists, although a mighty effort has been made to change it to that. Once again, I’m happy to engage that discussion (it actually fits with the justification for belief in God), but it is not the topic here.

The topic here has to do with a common argument against the existence of God: that argument is that the existence of evil is evidence that God (at least as He is described by Christians) does not exist. Given that this argument has been presented, my comment was that the first question that should be raised in response to that argument is this: If you believe there is no God (and therefore no absolute standard of good/evil) then on what grounds do you assert that evil exists, at all?

So far, I’ve seen no one offer a justification (not a bald claim, but a justified assertion) for asserting that evil is a reality, in the absence of an absolute and objective standard. One person has argued that certain things are immoral in their personal opinion, but of course that is no justification for asserting the objective existence of evil: someone else’s opinion might be that this person’s opinion is immoral: how would one know? As far as I know, there is no way to take that position and at the same time make the argument first proposed in my opening comments.

One person has asserted that this can be done: “Why would we need an objective evil? Why wouldn't the existence of a relative evil be sufficient for arguing against a benevolent/loving god? I'm sure I can make the argument.”
And my response was “Ah, excellent! Go ahead. Make the case for the existence of 'relative evil'. I've seen several attempts, none successful. But I'm open to discussing it.” And of course, then the case has to be made that this ‘relative evil’ is a valid argument against the existence of God.

So far, I’ve seen no response to that.

Aside from all that, if in fact everyone prefers letting the conversation go on as it has, then I’ll leave it to you folks, and be happy that I have stimulated a conversation.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread is closed for staff review.

 

[George95]

MOD HAT ON

After review by the Staff, this topic will remain closed. It has gone off topic, and also drifted into being a General Apologetics thread, which is not allowed here on CF. You can find the Discussion and Debate Forum Rules here regarding posting in these areas.

MOD HAT OFF​