If God commands me to kill someone...

[RDKirk]

1. God does not talk to us except through his word.

That's not what His word says, unless we mean His Word in which case we take the Colossians concept that everything of God comes into this world through Jesus.

But then we get into procession debates to determine where the Holy Spirit comes into the picture.

 

[LionL]

Are you suggesting that Abraham was mentally ill?

How would you describe a man who hears voices from God telling him to kill his son? A serious answer please.

 

[RDKirk]

How would you describe a man who hears voices from God telling him to kill his son? A serious answer please.

I would say that if today a man hears voices telling him to kill his son that he is not hearing from God.

 

[anonymous person]

How would you describe a man who hears voices from God telling him to kill his son? A serious answer please.

Depends on the context.

Is the man your average Joe Blow or is he a the father of many nations who bore sons who would become the leaders of the twelve tribes of Israel?

 

[Noxot]

Should I do it?

Clearly, God has not (no worries), but it's a thought experiment I've been struggling with.

Is morality absolute?

I would not because I refuse to obey evil and God is either for me or he is against me. I trust God enough to reject something that does not sit right with me. if he loves me then we will come to an understanding. the integrity of my own self matters too much to blindly follow orders. I think God could appreciate my pov. I think this is my own faith in God in fact (as opposed to someone else's faith that does not matter to me).

if I was abram and God told me to sacrifice my son I would have stood up against him and rebelled.

i'm an existentialist and so to just go by some words in a book is beneath me. I will either worship God in spirit and in truth or I will refuse to worship him at all.

the relationship of the Trinity is absolute. God is absolute. morality bends its knees to the kingdom of heaven as a servant.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

God commanded Abraham to kill Isaac. God commanded Moses to murder. God commanded the Israelites to commit genocide. God would not command murder or genocide again?

God was testing Abraham and he did not kill. God did not command Moses to kill he did it of his own accord.

You need to understand the difference in covenants. We are under the new covenant which is based in love.

 

[RDKirk]

God was testing Abraham and he did not kill. God did not command Moses to kill he did it of his own accord.

You need to understand the difference in covenants. We are under the new covenant which is based in love.

Something to remember as well:

By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead. -- Hebrews 11

So with Abraham, we have to restate the situation:

If Abraham absolutely believed God could and would resurrect Isaac--based on God's promise that the specific individual Isaac would be alive to bear children later--was it immoral for Abraham to go ahead with the sacrifice?

This reminds me of a scene from the movie "The Abyss" where a man and a woman trapped in a disabled submarine will have to transit to another vehicle, but they don't have enough air for both of them to make the trip. They reason that because women can supposedly go without air longer, the man would take the air and they would resuscitate the woman after she had drowned.

This was not an immoral concept for the movie, so I don't think it's immoral with regard to Abraham--Abraham's expectation that Isaac would be brought back to life was for him no less valid than a man's belief today that a woman could be resuscitated after being drowned.

 

[FollowerOfJesus]

I am not sure how this manifestation of the order to kill is being perceived; though, we as Christians are to test the spirit and not just blindly obey. More than likely the manifestation to kill will fail any and all tests of being from God. God created all we know from nothing, He can handle his own battles, there are plenty of examples where God has fought battles.

When you study the scriptures in depth, there is a lot more going on in the OT than God just ordering mass genocide ... etc. Unfortunately, most Christians have no idea what is going on in the OT; let alone, someone just randomly reading the Bible, I wouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly.

God bless you and keep you,
Ken

 

[JGG]

Depends on the context.

Is the man your average Joe Blow or is he a the father of many nations who bore sons who would become the leaders of the twelve tribes of Israel?

If I may say so, when Abraham was hearing the voice of God, he was not yet the father of nations.

On what basis do we determine who is genuinely hearing the voice of God, and who is just "Joe Blow"?

 

[JGG]

I am not sure how this manifestation of the order to kill is being perceived; though, we as Christians are to test the spirit and not just blindly obey. More than likely the manifestation to kill will fail any and all tests of being from God. God created all we know from nothing, He can handle his own battles, there are plenty of examples where God has fought battles.

Right. However, there are plenty of examples where God had others fight His battles for Him.

When you study the scriptures in depth, there is a lot more going on in the OT than God just ordering mass genocide ... etc. Unfortunately, most Christians have no idea what is going on in the OT; let alone, someone just randomly reading the Bible, I wouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly.

That is more than reasonable. However, I don't understand how these stories are not of the utmost concern to believers. If they don't understand it, why are believers not asking these questions? I have heard many explanations of what is going on in the OT, and I have a few ideas of my own. So, what is going on in the Old Testament?

 

[JGG]

Something to remember as well:

By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead. -- Hebrews 11

So with Abraham, we have to restate the situation:

If Abraham absolutely believed God could and would resurrect Isaac--based on God's promise that the specific individual Isaac would be alive to bear children later--was it immoral for Abraham to go ahead with the sacrifice?

This reminds me of a scene from the movie "The Abyss" where a man and a woman trapped in a disabled submarine will have to transit to another vehicle, but they don't have enough air for both of them to make the trip. They reason that because women can supposedly go without air longer, the man would take the air and they would resuscitate the woman after she had drowned.

This was not an immoral concept for the movie, so I don't think it's immoral with regard to Abraham--Abraham's expectation that Isaac would be brought back to life was for him no less valid than a man's belief today that a woman could be resuscitated after being drowned.

Abraham outsmarted God? If Abraham figured out God's trick, did he really have faith? If God put this test to Abraham, after being telling him how to beat the test, how was Abraham really tested?

 

[FollowerOfJesus]

Abraham outsmarted God? If Abraham figured out God's trick, did he really have faith? If God put this test to Abraham, after being telling him how to beat the test, how was Abraham really tested?

Abraham was acting out prophecy, this is the first instance of the word "love" in the Bible, the first use of love in the NT is when Jesus is baptized and God says "this is my beloved son", same words. God tells Abraham to take his only son that he loves and sacrifice him. They travel three days journey to mount Moriah where Abraham is told to sacrifice Issac (Issac is dead to Abraham 3 days), this is the same exact place where God offered His Son for your sin 1500 years later. Issac carried the wood, Jesus carried his cross and there were two servants with them, there were two witness next to Christ on the cross. The story is perfectly prophesying the passion of Christ, the Jews could not have made this up and written it down hundreds of years before the event.

The KJV captures this conversation best:

Genesis 22:7-8 7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Notice who will provide the lamb, God will provide himself to the be the sacrificial lamb. Jesus fulfilled this prophecy 1500 years later. If you follow the story, a goat is provided as the sacrifice, the lamb was provided as Jesus Christ the lamb of God.

To make the story more provocative, Issac is not mentioned in the story again; until, an unnamed servant (symbol of the Holy Spirit) brings Issac his bride (symbol of the Church) to him. This is what God is doing in your life, the Holy Spirit is perusing you to bring you to Christ.

God bless you and keep you,
Ken

 

[RDKirk]

Abraham outsmarted God? If Abraham figured out God's trick, did he really have faith? If God put this test to Abraham, after being telling him how to beat the test, how was Abraham really tested?

Abraham's faith relied on the fact that he so absolutely believed God's promise--that indeed, absolutely, without a doubt, it would be Isaac, strictly Isaac, and only Isaac through whom a nation would descend. Based on that promise, Abraham figured God had some kind of plan to make that happen.

Now, if the writer of Hebrews is correct that Abraham figured God would resurrect Isaac, then Abraham was wrong in how he thought God would work this situation out...that's now how the situation actually turned out. But the point is not whether Abraham had God's plan figured out, but that Abraham had faith God did, indeed, have a plan.

"I think the captain has a plan. Do what he says." -- Shepherd Book, "Firefly"

 

[FollowerOfJesus]

Right. However, there are plenty of examples where God had others fight His battles for Him.

Technically, no one fights God's battles, they fought their own battles supported by God. We have struggles and God gives us the strength and support to fight our own battles, there are lots of examples of this in history.

That is more than reasonable. However, I don't understand how these stories are not of the utmost concern to believers. If they don't understand it, why are believers not asking these questions? I have heard many explanations of what is going on in the OT, and I have a few ideas of my own. So, what is going on in the Old Testament?

This is a deeper study, the answer might surprise you, it is always good to know who is being killed and why. For example, people say the Church has been the cause of so many wars in our history; the better question, who is killing, who is being killed and why?

God bless you and keep you,
Ken

 

[anonymous person]

If I may say so, when Abraham was hearing the voice of God, he was not yet the father of nations.

I get your point. Abraham's grandchildren were yet to be born when God told him to offer up Isaac.

This fact however does not nullify my point which was that Abraham was not your average Joe Blow, but rather, a man marked out by God for a great work.

On what basis do we determine who is genuinely hearing the voice of God, and who is just "Joe Blow"?

God has given His written word to you so that you can use it as the basis or standard against which you compare what people say. If someone claims to hear a voice from God and they say that the voice says: "go cut the heads off of people who will not convert to Christianity" (for example), then we can read God's word and draw the conclusion that such a one is not hearing from God at all for what they are saying does not line up with how God wants us to treat those who do not share our same views. God cannot contradict Himself.

It really is just that simple.

 

[pastor marty]

Should I do it?

Clearly, God has not (no worries), but it's a thought experiment I've been struggling with.

Is morality absolute?

Is being maggot fertilizer an absolute state ? Secular humanist atheist/agnostics teach our kids there are no-absolutes. That's like programming a fresh hard-drive to compute w/yes-no & maybe.Brainwashing is just illogical data presented as fact to an impressionable mind; be they Hitler youth,Rev. Jones's suicide sinners or Mormon missionarys. Garbage in = garbage out. (FACT)

 

[pastor marty]

If God commands you to kill someone then you should see a psychiatrist at once!

Imagine the story of Abraham and Isaac. What if that happened today? Abraham would be taken away and placed in a mental institution as a danger to society - and rightly so.

I run over the pedophile;serial sinner & claim 'brake failure' In 1965 the FED. Govt payed me $400 mo. 2 kill little yellow guys. Is it really so hard 2 believe God might B/that angry. And the thing w/Issac was a Holy Halloween joke. A test of loyalty not a sadistic jest.. FIN

 

[pastor marty]

I would not because I refuse to obey evil and God is either for me or he is against me. I trust God enough to reject something that does not sit right with me. if he loves me then we will come to an understanding. the integrity of my own self matters too much to blindly follow orders. I think God could appreciate my pov. I think this is my own faith in God in fact (as opposed to someone else's faith that does not matter to me).

if I was abram and God told me to sacrifice my son I would have stood up against him and rebelled.

i'm an existentialist and so to just go by some words in a book is beneath me. I will either worship God in spirit and in truth or I will refuse to worship him at all.

the relationship of the Trinity is absolute. God is absolute. morality bends its knees to the kingdom of heaven as a servant.

Ants shouldn't get migraines trying 2 figure out w/the Elephants' thinkin'

 

[Elder 111]

Should I do it?

Clearly, God has not (no worries), but it's a thought experiment I've been struggling with.

Is morality absolute?

God does not call us to kill!

 

[Elder 111]

God is not subject to His laws, so if He were to have someone killed it would not be wrong. In other words, there is no ethical standard to which God is required to submit except the standards that He imposes on Himself. God is the standard of ethics.

Since we are all sinners, and we all deserve death, God commanding someone to die would not be a problem.

Obviously, God commanding someone to kill is very hypothetical, and would require much proof, as this is not His normal method. When God is ready for us to die He has other means at His disposal.

If God is not subject to His law why did He send His son to die? All He had to do was to ignore His own law.