If God can forgive murderers, is there a limit? If so, what is the limit?

fhansen

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Something dawned me today.
If someone committed murder and let's say you get a life sentence in prison but you repented truthfully in your heart and accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, then I assume God would forgive that person even though they will still live out their natural life behind bars. But when they die, they will go to heaven. (Imagine how the victims' family must feel if they knew even though this person will spend rest of their life behind bars, they will get a great reward when they enter the afterlife in heaven --> the only way for that family to proceed is to truly forgive the murderer otherwise they will always feel injustice was done to them and the person should never get to enter heaven).

But what if that person is responsible for the murder of 1 million people? Obviously that person didn't physically murder each of the million persons with their bare hands, but let's say that person was a leader of a country and ordered the nuclear strike on an enemy state and it resulted in the deaths of 1 million people. Now let's say that leader one day truthfully repents to Jesus and accepts Jesus as LORD and Savior....will God still forgive them? Is there a limit to which how many people you murdered there's a point of no return? If God does forgive that leader and when that leader passes away behind bars or execution, he will go to heaven. Imagine how many people on earth would disagree with God on that decision and they themselves might be Christian too. Imagine all the families and friends of the victims....so everyone would have to find it in their hearts somehow to forgive this person otherwise they will always live in resentment and bitterness towards God for letting him into heaven?
The limit is to cease being a murderer. And by the time we reach heaven, I think all will understand that God does the right thing in His incomparable wisdom and mercy and love. We'll be in alignment with Him in His love, in His forgiveness, in understanding of why we sin to begin with.
 
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sawdust

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Something dawned me today.
If someone committed murder and let's say you get a life sentence in prison but you repented truthfully in your heart and accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, then I assume God would forgive that person even though they will still live out their natural life behind bars. But when they die, they will go to heaven. (Imagine how the victims' family must feel if they knew even though this person will spend rest of their life behind bars, they will get a great reward when they enter the afterlife in heaven --> the only way for that family to proceed is to truly forgive the murderer otherwise they will always feel injustice was done to them and the person should never get to enter heaven).

But what if that person is responsible for the murder of 1 million people? Obviously that person didn't physically murder each of the million persons with their bare hands, but let's say that person was a leader of a country and ordered the nuclear strike on an enemy state and it resulted in the deaths of 1 million people. Now let's say that leader one day truthfully repents to Jesus and accepts Jesus as LORD and Savior....will God still forgive them? Is there a limit to which how many people you murdered there's a point of no return? If God does forgive that leader and when that leader passes away behind bars or execution, he will go to heaven. Imagine how many people on earth would disagree with God on that decision and they themselves might be Christian too. Imagine all the families and friends of the victims....so everyone would have to find it in their hearts somehow to forgive this person otherwise they will always live in resentment and bitterness towards God for letting him into heaven?
There is a limit to forgiveness and that is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. You don't have to murder anyone for that. Indeed you don't have to commit even a very great sin (from a human perspective).

Mark 3:29

but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

so everyone would have to find it in their hearts somehow to forgive this person otherwise they will always live in resentment and bitterness towards God for letting him into heaven?
You think too much like a man. What is impossible for us is possible for God. If He cannot transform people then what point to the life we have been given?
 
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juvenissun

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Something dawned me today.
If someone committed murder and let's say you get a life sentence in prison but you repented truthfully in your heart and accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, then I assume God would forgive that person even though they will still live out their natural life behind bars. But when they die, they will go to heaven. (Imagine how the victims' family must feel if they knew even though this person will spend rest of their life behind bars, they will get a great reward when they enter the afterlife in heaven --> the only way for that family to proceed is to truly forgive the murderer otherwise they will always feel injustice was done to them and the person should never get to enter heaven).

But what if that person is responsible for the murder of 1 million people? Obviously that person didn't physically murder each of the million persons with their bare hands, but let's say that person was a leader of a country and ordered the nuclear strike on an enemy state and it resulted in the deaths of 1 million people. Now let's say that leader one day truthfully repents to Jesus and accepts Jesus as LORD and Savior....will God still forgive them? Is there a limit to which how many people you murdered there's a point of no return? If God does forgive that leader and when that leader passes away behind bars or execution, he will go to heaven. Imagine how many people on earth would disagree with God on that decision and they themselves might be Christian too. Imagine all the families and friends of the victims....so everyone would have to find it in their hearts somehow to forgive this person otherwise they will always live in resentment and bitterness towards God for letting him into heaven?
God will forgive, as long as one, anyone, becomes a true Christian.
Any question on that?
 
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fhansen

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God will forgive, as long as one, anyone, becomes a true Christian.
Any question on that?
Depends one how one defines a true Christian. John, in his letters, defines a follower as a person who overcomes sin, and who loves (two things that go hand in hand). Does a Christian always forgive? Jesus tells us in Matt 6:15 that, "...if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
 
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juvenissun

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Depends one how one defines a true Christian. John, in his letters, defines a follower as a person who overcomes sin, and who loves (two things that go hand in hand). Does a Christian always forgive? Jesus tells us in Matt 6:15 that, "...if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
It does not matter how do you define a true Christian, as long as the person feel himself as a "true" Christian. God will forgive him.
It is the same as a person get an ID in a country.
 
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fhansen

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It does not matter how do you define a true Christian, as long as the person feel himself as a "true" Christian. God will forgive him.
It is the same as a person get an ID in a country.
I think it matters much...how God defines a "true Christian".
 
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juvenissun

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I think it matters much...how God defines a "true Christian".
One hundred people have degree of faith from 1% to 100%, where would God cut to tell true from not true Christian?
As long as a person has 1% of faith, he IS a true Christian, and God will forgive him (so he can enter the Heaven).
This does not mean one with 1% of faith will receive the same reward from God as that of others who have stronger faith.
 
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fhansen

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One hundred people have degree of faith from 1% to 100%, where would God cut to tell true from not true Christian?
As long as a person has 1% of faith, he IS a true Christian, and God will forgive him (so he can enter the Heaven).
This does not mean one with 1% of faith will receive the same reward from God as that of others who have stronger faith.
If faith bears no good fruit, then it's worthless. Augustine put it another way:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."
 
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juvenissun

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If faith bears no good fruit, then it's worthless. Augustine put it another way:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."
bearing fruit is fine. But having faith along is the minimum necessary condition.
I guess a person with a minimum faith will bear at least one small fruit. Right?
 
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fhansen

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bearing fruit is fine. But having faith along is the minimum necessary condition.
I guess a person with a minimum faith will bear at least one small fruit. Right?
Well, I couldn't say. But bad fruit, such as murder, if not sincerely contrite over, means they haven't changed, not acting as children of God to begin with.
 
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juvenissun

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Well, I couldn't say. But bad fruit, such as murder, if not sincerely contrite over, means they haven't changed, not acting as children of God to begin with.
I am not sure there is a thing called “bad fruit”. I think in the Bible, all fruits are good.
The sinners on the cross with Jesus, are they true Christians? Where is their fruit?
 
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fhansen

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I am not sure there is a thing called “bad fruit”. I think in the Bible, all fruits are good.
The sinners on the cross with Jesus, are they true Christians? Where is their fruit?
More is demanded from those given more. His fruit was faith, which was all he had to give and which pleased Jesus immensely. Bad fruit? That should be obvious enough: sin, hatred, jealousy, strife- lack of love.

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. 1 John 3:7-10
 
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juvenissun

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Bad fruit? That should be obvious enough: sin, hatred, jealousy, strife- lack of love.
I think it is not a correct use of the word "fruit" in the New Testament. A "fruit" is always a good thing.
 
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seeker2122

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Repentance is not a condition to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation and become a born again child of God.

Where is this proven in Scripture? I definitely desire for what you said to be true than not true because repenting is often difficult to do (because you have to really mean it and sincerely desire to repent) but it also seems to be missing something. People don't have to repent of their sins to be saved? Of course they can't repent of every single sin since we cannot even number them or name them let alone recall them. But repenting that you are a sinner and have wronged God seems to have to be a requirement whether actually stated verbally or just in your understanding and heart. I know there are scriptures that omit repentance as a condition to being saved (ie. John 3:16 doesn't mention we have to repent but simply to believe in Jesus) but other scriptures do say we need to repent.

God's "free gift" doesn't mean literally it's free. It just means there's nothing we could have done to earn it and thus God through his grace offers it to us. There is a condition as there always is. The condition is you must believe in God. Some would say even believing in Jesus is not a condition to go to heaven because all the OT men and women of faith did not believe in Jesus Christ, they didn't know him in that form and he wasn't born yet (human form) so they didn't confess Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior but only that they encountered God and believed in Him thus they were saved.
 
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RandyPNW

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Where is this proven in Scripture? I definitely desire for what you said to be true than not true because repenting is often difficult to do (because you have to really mean it and sincerely desire to repent) but it also seems to be missing something. People don't have to repent of their sins to be saved? Of course they can't repent of every single sin since we cannot even number them or name them let alone recall them. But repenting that you are a sinner and have wronged God seems to have to be a requirement whether actually stated verbally or just in your understanding and heart. I know there are scriptures that omit repentance as a condition to being saved (ie. John 3:16 doesn't mention we have to repent but simply to believe in Jesus) but other scriptures do say we need to repent.

God's "free gift" doesn't mean literally it's free. It just means there's nothing we could have done to earn it and thus God through his grace offers it to us. There is a condition as there always is. The condition is you must believe in God. Some would say even believing in Jesus is not a condition to go to heaven because all the OT men and women of faith did not believe in Jesus Christ, they didn't know him in that form and he wasn't born yet (human form) so they didn't confess Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior but only that they encountered God and believed in Him thus they were saved.
Yes, I would say that "Faith," as used in the NT as a condition for Salvation, is used not in a simplistic, generic sense, but really, in the technical "Christian" sense. "Faith," then, refers to *Faith in Christ for Salvation,* as opposed to *faith in the Law,* which was a record of Israel's obedience falling short of Eternal Life. Faith that Saves is Faith that is placed in Christ, whose record does qualify for Eternal Life, which he can, as God, in turn give to us.

But "Repentance" is, by default what you do when you believe in Christ. It is a forfeiture of our own self-will for a partnership that defers to God. We repent of "going our own way," and choose, in its place, partnership with Christ. We defer to the Spirit what we might otherwise do in the flesh.

So this kind of "repentance" does not require our perfection. It is a trust in *Christ's record." But inasmuch as we *choose him,* we are in fact repenting, even if it is not a matter of sinless perfection on our part. There has to be some reality to our choice for Christ or it isn't true Faith in Christ. And if so, it isn't real "repentance." And if not, we remain condemned.
 
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d taylor

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Where is this proven in Scripture? I definitely desire for what you said to be true than not true because repenting is often difficult to do (because you have to really mean it and sincerely desire to repent) but it also seems to be missing something. People don't have to repent of their sins to be saved? Of course they can't repent of every single sin since we cannot even number them or name them let alone recall them. But repenting that you are a sinner and have wronged God seems to have to be a requirement whether actually stated verbally or just in your understanding and heart. I know there are scriptures that omit repentance as a condition to being saved (ie. John 3:16 doesn't mention we have to repent but simply to believe in Jesus) but other scriptures do say we need to repent.

God's "free gift" doesn't mean literally it's free. It just means there's nothing we could have done to earn it and thus God through his grace offers it to us. There is a condition as there always is. The condition is you must believe in God. Some would say even believing in Jesus is not a condition to go to heaven because all the OT men and women of faith did not believe in Jesus Christ, they didn't know him in that form and he wasn't born yet (human form) so they didn't confess Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior but only that they encountered God and believed in Him thus they were saved.

The whole book of The Gospel of John (not just John 3:16), never list repentance as a condition to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. The Gospel of John is stated as being specifically written to tell people how to have life (Eternal Life) by believing in Jesus, that Jesus is The Christ, The Son of God and that believing you may have life in His name.

Not sure where you get this idea that Eternal Life is not free. Eternal Life is not given to ever single person automatically, but God does have one condition to receive His free gift of His life and that is to believe in Jesus.

From Adam and Eve to now they have all receive Eternal Life by faith in The promise Messiah. It is true they may have not known the full extent of who Jesus would be. But they believed in the promised Messiah that was coming. Genesis 3:15 speaks to this her seed. Then in Genesis 4:1 the original Hebrew literately states, Eve believed she had given birth to Jehovah.

וְהָאָדָם, יָדַע אֶת-חַוָּה אִשְׁתּוֹ; וַתַּהַר, וַתֵּלֶד
אֶת-קַיִן, וַתֹּאמֶר, קָנִיתִי אִישׁ אֶת-יְהוָה.

The original Hebrew states.
And the man knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man:Jehovah.”

Eve would not have stated this in Genesis 4:1, if she had not understood Genesis 3:15 as a promise of a Messiah God

Jesus also states this.

For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me
and
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”


There is no verse that states God requires a person to confess Jesus as Lord and Savior to receive Eternal Life.
It is stated many times to receive Eternal Life salvation a person must believe in Jesus.
 
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food4thought

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Something dawned me today.
Isn't it wonderful when the Holy Spirit brings something new of God to our attention?
If someone committed murder and let's say you get a life sentence in prison but you repented truthfully in your heart and accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, then I assume God would forgive that person even though they will still live out their natural life behind bars. But when they die, they will go to heaven. (Imagine how the victims' family must feel if they knew even though this person will spend rest of their life behind bars, they will get a great reward when they enter the afterlife in heaven --> the only way for that family to proceed is to truly forgive the murderer otherwise they will always feel injustice was done to them and the person should never get to enter heaven).
Yes. This is one of the reasons that Jesus stated that without us forgiving others there is no forgiveness for us (Matthew 6:14-15).
But what if that person is responsible for the murder of 1 million people? Obviously that person didn't physically murder each of the million persons with their bare hands, but let's say that person was a leader of a country and ordered the nuclear strike on an enemy state and it resulted in the deaths of 1 million people. Now let's say that leader one day truthfully repents to Jesus and accepts Jesus as LORD and Savior....will God still forgive them?
The short answer is yes. As long as the person truly repents of their unbelief and receives Jesus as Lord and Savior, all sins are washed away and they become a new creation in Christ.
Is there a limit to which how many people you murdered there's a point of no return?
In theory, no. In reality, though, we must acknowledge that such actions take their toll on the conscience and heart of the person who kills repeatedly, and there may be a point that such a person will have damaged themselves so badly that they would never be able to believe. Still, no one knows the heart and conscience but God alone, so I don't think we can place a number on the limit as fallible human beings. For example, no one knows for sure, but it was reported that the serial killer Jeffrey Dalmer came to Christ while in prison, and he performed some of the most heinous acts imaginable. There is a good chance that Dalmer will be in heaven, though.
If God does forgive that leader and when that leader passes away behind bars or execution, he will go to heaven. Imagine how many people on earth would disagree with God on that decision and they themselves might be Christian too. Imagine all the families and friends of the victims....so everyone would have to find it in their hearts somehow to forgive this person otherwise they will always live in resentment and bitterness towards God for letting him into heaven?
Grace is always extended to the undeserving, otherwise it is not grace (unmerited favor) but their due (earned by works). It is only when we realize our own depths of depravity that it becomes more likely for us to find forgiving others easier. Perhaps this is why some of the most powerfully used people in history have been those who committed terrible sin in their pre-Christ days (Paul is the prime example). That said, in eternity we will know fully (1stCorinthians 13:12) just as we are fully known, and all our doubts, questions, and unbelief will be washed away.

I fee compelled to add that there is unforgivable sin. Jesus said as much:

Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw. And all the multitudes were amazed and said, "Could this be the Son of David?" Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, "This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons." But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad. "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matthew 12:22-37)

In this passage, the Pharisees attributed the work of the Holy Spirit through Jesus as being the works of the devil. Jesus says this is an unforgivable sin. If one persists in this belief, there is no way for them to place their faith in Jesus.

Here is the other side of the same coin:

And another angel followed, saying, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Revelation 14:8-12)

Everyone who believes that the Antichrist and false prophet are doing their works through God will also have committed an unforgivable sin. So we see that attributing the works of God to Satan and attributing the works of Satan to God are unforgivable sins. If one persists in these beliefs, they would never come to saving faith in Jesus as the true Lord and Savior.

Hope this helps.
 
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