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If Genesis isn't "literal", then what is?

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Vance

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Vance -- just about the only thing Augustine didnt see as literal in Genesis was the 6 days -- he saw them as an allegory for one single moment. other than that, at least in City of God, he reads it quite literally. and i have seen the comments from those pages, but unfortunately they are not grounded in Patristics.

youll want to check out this site: http://www.creatio.orthodoxy.ru/english.html

Fr. Seraphim Rose's book is an excellent, indepth study of the Patristic understanding of Genesis.
Yes, Rose's book came into the discussion a lot, but there was a lot of controversy among Orthodox on the point. The actual Orthodox poster kept going back and forth as he read one Church leader and then another saying different things. I honestly don't recall where he ended up.

As for Augustine, I did an analysis of his view of Genesis and the whole science v. faith issue. I will post in the next post, since it is quite lengthy. But, since it happens to be relevant to this discussion, it could be useful.
 
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Vance

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Here is a bit I wrote on Augustine a while back that I think is relevant to this discussion:

I believe one of the greatest dangers within Christianity comes from human pride. This is not surprising when you consider that all of sin can ultimately be boiled down to a prideful, selfish nature within Mankind. And this can particularly rear its ugly head when it comes to our interpretation of Scripture or, more specifically, our dogmatic insistence that our particular interpretation must be the correct one. We come to the Scripture with our biases, our presuppositions and cultural baggage, that is inevitable. These limitations should make us humble and hesitant to become dogmatic in non-essential areas, but very often we see interpretations turn into doctrines and doctrines turn into dogmas, and these dogmas result in “stumbling blocks” that are unnecessary, not to mention a distraction from the more important Gospel message.

As an example, we can look at all the controversies, polemics and angst in the Creation/Evolution debate which ultimately (despite the Intelligent Design movement’s attempt to make it a scientific argument) arises out of our interpretation of Genesis. I would suggest that we put this area of debate back into its proper “non-essential” category, and one way of doing this is to become more humble regarding our reading of Genesis and less dogmatically certain that our particular reading of Genesis MUST be the correct one. And, in reading Augustine, I was surprised to find how great an example he is in this area. He did a thorough commentary on Genesis and there are wonderful lessons there for both our general approach to interpretation and to the reading of Genesis in particular. Although the following walk through his analysis is a bit lengthy, I have found it very rewarding.

What does Augustine say regarding conflicting views of Scripture? What did he think about allowing science to inform our interpretation? How did he, ultimately, read Genesis?

Let’s look at what Augustine has to say:

This is from Book 1, Chapter 19 of his book on Genesis:
"38. Let us suppose that in explaining the words, "And God said, 'Let there be light,' and light was made," one man thinks that it was material light that was made, and another that it was spiritual. As to the actual existence of spiritual light in a spiritual creature, our faith leaves no doubt; as to the existence of material light, celestial or supercelestial, even existing before the heavens, a light which could have been followed by night, there will be nothing in such a supposition contrary to the faith until unerring truth gives the lie to it. And if that should happen, this teaching was never in Holy Scripture but was an opinion proposed by man in his ignorance. . . . "

Here is what I think Augustine is saying here: when we read a particular text, often two people will agree that there is a particular spiritual or theological truth, based on our faith, but may differ as to whether a literal fact was meant as well. We should, then, agree on the theological truth. As for the material truth, there is nothing wrong with accepting this as well, unless and until there is evidence which shows that it can not be the true reading. When that happens, we know that the material interpretation was never part of Scripture to begin with.

In the very next paragraph, he goes on to discuss exactly WHY we should allow such evidence to cause us to let go of our material (literal) interpretations and I don’t think Augustine could have spoken more to the point of the current debate if he was here with us now:

"39. Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field in which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although "they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion."

Next, he shows the proper humility about this interpretive process that we all can learn from, and he acknowledges that the writing of Genesis was NOT done with a meaning that was "obvious" or "plain". but instead was "obscure":

"40. With these facts in mind, I have worked out and presented the statements of the Book of Genesis in a variety of ways according to my ability; and, in interpreting words that have been written obscurely for the purpose of stimulating our thought, I have not rashly taken my stand on one side against a rival interpretation which might possibly be better. I have thought that each one, in keeping with his powers of understanding, should choose the interpretation that he can grasp. . . ."

Next, in Chapter 21, he states that if the scientist presents reliable evidence about nature, then we can be assured that it fits with what Scripture really says:

"When they [the unbeliever] are able, from reliable evidence, to prove some fact of physical science, we shall show that it is not contrary to our Scripture."

And I think this is an essential point. We, as Christians, should not DENY the evidence when it is reliable, we should instead show them how that it fits with Scripture, lest they attempt to use their evidence to disprove Scripture. Too often our knee-jerk reaction is “that is contrary to Scripture”, when we really mean “that is contrary to how I have always read Scripture”. Maybe instead, we should consider asking “if that WAS correct, knowing that Scripture is also correct, how could the two work together?”

St. Augustine also discusses the other three factors to consider in interpretation: 1) the author's intent, 2) whether it is consistent with Scripture and faith, and 3) if these other two are not possible to determine, one that our faith demands.

"When we read the inspired books in the light of this wide variety of true doctrines which are drawn from a few words and founded on the firm basis of Catholic belief, let us choose that one which appears as certainly the meaning intended by the author. But if this is not clear, then at least we should choose an interpretation in keeping with the context of Scripture and in harmony with our faith. But if the meaning cannot be studied and judged by the context of Scripture, at least we should choose only that which our faith demands."

There are a couple of very important truths expounded here.

First, he acknowledges that often a wide variety of possible and arguable doctrines can come from a given text. This is contrary to the idea that the true meaning is always "obvious" or "plain".

Second, it is not always clear what the author intended!

Third, it may not even be possible to determine the meaning from the context of Scripture itself. This, then, is pointing to the fact that sometimes it is necessary to consider evidence and argument outside the Scripture.

Lastly, among competing interpretation, we should choose the one our faith demands. So, for me, if I find the evidence against a literally historical reading of Genesis such that my faith demands a figurative reading, and it does not contradict the other factors, that is the one I must follow.

Augustine also warns against the serious danger of reading a text literally that was meant to be read non-literally:

"At the outset, you must be very careful lest you take figurative expression literally. What the apostle says pertains to this problem: “for the letter killeth, but the spirit quikeneth.” That is, when that which is said figuratively is taken as though it were literal, it is understood carnally [carnalia]. Nor can anything more appropriately be called the death of the soul than that condition in which the thing which distinguishes us from beasts, which is understanding, is subjected to the flesh in the passing of the letter" [hoc est, intelligentia carni subjicitur sequndo litteram] (On Christian Doctrine 3. 5).

So, with all of these interpretive rules and markers in place, how did Augustine end up reading the Creation stories in Genesis?
In the end, Augustine rejected the idea of a literal six day creation and believed that Creation occured in an instant, but that not all was immediately present. Instead, God planted "seminal seeds" within His Creation of many things that would develop later. As one writer summarized it:

Augustine saw three phases of creation: the "unchangeable forms in the Word of God," "seminal seeds" created in the instant of creation, and a later "springing forth" in the course of time.

Some get confused about what he actually believed, because he phrased it almost as obscurely as Genesis! He notes that the text discusses "six days" of creation (which is true, that IS what is in the text, the question is whether it is read literally or figuratively), then he mentions that the text also describes it as being made "all together". He then explains why the "six day" motif was there: for the benefit of the general readers' understanding of the process. He said that some might not be able to grasp the concept of God creating all things at the same time, so he chose to describe it instead as a step by step process, setting out the six figurative days.

Aquinas discussed Augustine's view of immediate creation, and contrasted it with other commentators view that the six days were literal. In his Summa, he said "So as not to prejudice either view, we must deal with the reasons for both."

In the words of Louis Berkhof, Augustine "was evidently inclined to think God created all things in a moment of time, and that the thought of days was simply introduced to aid the finite intelligence." Looking at Augustine's own words, taken from his Genesis commentary, we read, "In this narrative of creation Holy Scripture has said of the Creator that He completed His works in six days, and elsewhere, without contradicting this, it has been written of the same Creator that He created all things together . . . Why then was there any need for six distinct days to be set forth in the narrative one after the other? The reason is that those who cannot understand the meaning of the text, He created all things together, cannot understand the meaning of the Scripture unless the narrative proceeds slowly step by step . . . For this Scripture text that narrates the works of God according to the days mentioned above, and that Scripture text that says God created all things together, are both true."

So, Augustine did not think the six days of Creation were historically literal, but they were still TRUE. And I think that is a crucial point. You do not have to believe the text is strict literal historical narrative to believe it is TRUE and even INFALLIBLE. It is true in the sense that it truly conveys what God intended it to convey, a method for us to grasp and hold on to the great truths of God's Creative work. If it is not MEANT to be literal historical narrative, then it is still TRUE even if it is not literal historical narrative.

And ultimately, Augustine argues for some flexibility in reading such Scripture:

“37. In matters that are obscure and far beyond our vision, even in such as we may find treated in Holy Scripture [and remember, he IS speaking of Genesis here], different Interpretations are sometimes possible without prejudice to the faith we have received. In such a case, we should not rush in headlong and so firmly take our stand on one side that, if further progress in the search of truth justly undermines this position, we too fall with it. That would be to battle not for the teaching of Holy Scripture but for our own, wishing its teaching to conform to ours, whereas we ought to wish ours to conform to that of Sacred Scripture. "

I think this says it all perfectly:

1. When Scriptures are not crystal clear (and he has already said Genesis in NOT), there are different interpretations which are possible.

2. We should NOT take a stand on one interpretation such that, if it was proved wrong, our faith would suffer. And if we should not even privately hold to a particular interpretation in this fashion, we definitely should not be teaching it!

3. It points out that further search for truth CAN undermine a position, which indicates, once again, that he believes we should factor in the evidence from nature to our interpretive process.

4. That holding tight to an interpretation in the face of the evidence is NOT to battle for the Holy Scripture, but for our personal interpretation. Rather, after taking all these interpretive factors into consideration (which includes evidence from nature), we should CONFORM our beliefs to that proper interpretation.

Overall, I think the “take away” message from this overview of Augustine is that we should avoid dogmatism in these non-essentials, since there is great danger in doing so. Taking a dogmatic “either/or” stance can be a stumbling-block to non-believers and even other Christians, and it can even damage our own faith. I am all for battling for truth, but let’s choose our battles wisely.
 
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jckstraw72

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St. Augustine might have allowed for theological variance, but he himself seems to have read it literally, in keeping with the other Fathers. also, although he does allow for variance in some points, he still says:

[FONT="]”For as it is not yet six thousand years since the first man, who is called Adam, are not those to be ridiculed rather than refuted who try to persuade us of anything regarding a space of time so different from, and contrary to, the ascertained truth?” [/FONT][FONT="]St. Augustine, City of God[/FONT]

so he would ridicule the timeline presented in an evolutionary model.
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
 
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Vance

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St. Augustine might have allowed for theological variance, but he himself seems to have read it literally, in keeping with the other Fathers. also, although he does allow for variance in some points, he still says:



so he would ridicule the timeline presented in an evolutionary model.
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Very true, but of course, he had none of the evidence we do today. Given the various positions he took in the quotes I give in my analysis, we have a good idea of what his general approach to science and to the Scriptures was. I think he would be a bit "red-faced" regarding that statement if he was alive today and could review all the evidence! :0)
 
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Nathan45

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Brother Nathan: i admit i am not very good at debate, so it is very possible that i do in fact, "look like a fool". i see that you have very strong feelings and that you are good at expressing yourself, so how about spelling out to me exactly what "theory" means in a scientific context.
Molal explained it pretty well...

and he's right, the word "proof" technically doesn't mean anything in a scientific context, but if it did evolution would have been proven long ago, there's so much evidence for it.

Anyway, when people use the word "Theory" in a non-scientific context they usually mean something similar to "Hypothesis"

A hypothesis is something that is untested scientific and may be true or false. So you test it to see if the hypothesis is correct or not, by checking it against all known evidence and doing experimentation.

A Theory is a tested hypothesis, that has passed all tests given to it. And it has to pass a lot of tests before you can call it a theory ... A theory is as high as it gets in science.
 
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Molal

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Molal explained it pretty well...

and he's right, the word "proof" technically doesn't mean anything in a scientific context, but if it did evolution would have been proven long ago, there's so much evidence for it.

Anyway, when people use the word "Theory" in a non-scientific context they usually mean something similar to "Hypothesis"

A hypothesis is something that is untested scientific and may be true or false. So you test it to see if the hypothesis is correct or not, by checking it against all known evidence and doing experimentation.

A Theory is a tested hypothesis, that has passed all tests given to it. And it has to pass a lot of tests before you can call it a theory ... A theory is as high as it gets in science.
I apologise for stealing your thunder Nathan.
 
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NathanCGreen

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Genesis is literal history. It is very easy to tell whether something in the Bible is figurative or literal. The problem comes when poeple try to insert their own ideas into the text that are not consistent with the context of those passages.

You may be interested in this article:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=56243

It may not be entirely on topic, but at least it is in the origins section.
 
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Molal

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Genesis is literal history. It is very easy to tell whether something in the Bible is figurative or literal. The problem comes when poeple try to insert their own ideas into the text that are not consistent with the context of those passages.

You may be interested in this article:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=56243

It may not be entirely on topic, but at least it is in the origins section.
The issue is where are the facts that negate evolution? If you know them, then please tell us.

Do you know how amazing this would be in science - you would be rich and famous!

Statistically, the theory of evolution is more accurate than atomic theory and the theory of gravity.

You only have a problem with it due to your biblical interpretation. Is this correct?
 
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Vance

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Genesis is literal history. It is very easy to tell whether something in the Bible is figurative or literal. The problem comes when poeple try to insert their own ideas into the text that are not consistent with the context of those passages.

Yes, they do indeed, which is exactly what is happening when people try to insert our modern historicism to accounts first told 3,500 years ago. We have to read the texts the way the first Israelites would have read them, and how the author would have intended us to read them. That is, with very little doubt, NOT as literal historical narrative. They were not even writing such a genre then, so why in the world would we expect God to use a style of writing or telling such accounts that would not be common for another thousand years?

What would be the reason for believing that Genesis 1 should be read in such a literal historical narrative genre, contrary to all historical, cultural and literary conventions of the Ancient Near East in which the first tellers and hearers of the accounts were located?
 
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cyberlizard

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The issue is where are the facts that negate evolution? If you know them, then please tell us.

Do you know how amazing this would be in science - you would be rich and famous!

Statistically, the theory of evolution is more accurate than atomic theory and the theory of gravity.

You only have a problem with it due to your biblical interpretation. Is this correct?


did you know there is a prize of $1,000,000 (US) for anyone that can prove life started and followed its course by evolution... so far no one has claimed it because it has to be proveable.

yes, evolution is true, but are we really discussing, blind mutation, natural selection or evolution as they aren't the same thing, but we throw the words around as though they are.

all evidence comes down to interpretation as you rightly say. If the evolutionists could prove their case as in a court of law, we would not be having these endless deabtes.....

question.... do you think jesus believed in a literal adam and eve from whom sin and death entered the world... this is a simple question requiring only a yes or no answer.

Steve
 
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Mallon

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did you know there is a prize of $1,000,000 (US) for anyone that can prove life started and followed its course by evolution... so far no one has claimed it because it has to be proveable.
There are also equally large sums of money out there awaiting those who can prove that the earth is round or that God exists. The reason why no one has ever claimed these prizes is that the contests are rigged so that no amount of evidence could ever meet the expectations of the selected jury.

all evidence comes down to interpretation as you rightly say. If the evolutionists could prove their case as in a court of law, we would not be having these endless deabtes.....
Evolutionists already have proven their case in the court of law. Many times over. See:
http://tungate.com/evolution_court_cases.htm
That doesn't stop the special creationists, though.

question.... do you think jesus believed in a literal adam and eve from whom sin and death entered the world... this is a simple question requiring only a yes or no answer.
No. Can you demonstrate that he did? And remember, just because he referenced the Genesis creation account doesn't mean that he believed it literally.
 
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Molal

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did you know there is a prize of $1,000,000 (US) for anyone that can prove life started and followed its course by evolution... so far no one has claimed it because it has to be proveable.

yes, evolution is true, but are we really discussing, blind mutation, natural selection or evolution as they aren't the same thing, but we throw the words around as though they are.

all evidence comes down to interpretation as you rightly say. If the evolutionists could prove their case as in a court of law, we would not be having these endless deabtes.....

question.... do you think jesus believed in a literal adam and eve from whom sin and death entered the world... this is a simple question requiring only a yes or no answer.

Steve
Evolution is descent with modification, it has nothing (NOTHING) to do with the origin of life.

Is this clear?

It is my opinion that Jesus understood genesis to be allegorical in nature since He understood why God guided man to write what he wrote. Jesus understood the political landscape and the context.
 
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Molal

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so what about paul.... if by one man sin entered (who was this one man)
You can still know evolution to be true and still believe that God considered an evolving species a human at a singular point in time.

So, what's your point?
 
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