• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

If Genesis 3 is a metaphor...

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
10,095
7,217
70
Midwest
✟368,958.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
If someone loves the God of the Bible, then why discount so much of his word?

"I love you God! ... Oh yea, I'm going to teach people that all your most significant acts were made-up fairytales! That whole 6-day creation thing you mention repeatedly? Yea, I'm gonna tell people that's all fake and didn't happen. No hard feelings!"

Not disregard it but understand it correctly, not "fairytales" and not "fake". But early creative attempts by humans inspired by God to explain the meaning and purpose of their existence. the Bible contains many styles of writing, many genres of literature. There is some history in there but not all of it was intended to be historical detail. The Book of Job is a good example.

1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them."

So Satan came in the presence of God? and who are the other "sons".

This is clearly not a historical account, rather, it is a fictional exploration of why bad things happen to good people.
 
Upvote 0

lifepsyop

Regular Member
Jan 23, 2014
2,447
761
✟95,310.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It isn't discounting the Bible but making sure we are understanding it correctly before projecting a false message that we think it says/means when it is really just us giving "holy credibility" to our lack of knowledge. We call it reasonable faith. Since God's word is true and if we presenting a story/message that is debunked by evidence and even reason then we are showing God's word to be fallible.

You claim "God's word is true" and then say plain verses like Exodus 20:11 are untrue.

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is...


This is either a true statement or it is untrue.
Is the Bible riddled with falsehoods, or is it reliable?

Has Jesus's claims also been debunked by evidence?
Is his testimony of the Genesis flood in Luke 26 a falsehood?

We call it reasonable faith.

As a believer in God's plainly written word, I see what it really is.

"reasonable faith" is the fear of losing the respect of men.. the fear of risking one's social standing.
Trying to lay up treasures in both earth and heaven, and diminishing God's word in the process.

Why can't we simply trust the plain account God gave us?
 
Upvote 0

lifepsyop

Regular Member
Jan 23, 2014
2,447
761
✟95,310.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Not disregard it but understand it correctly, not "fairytales" and not "fake". But early creative attempts by humans inspired by God to explain the meaning and purpose of their existence.

So your claim is that God inspired people to make up falsehoods (i.e. stuff that did not happen) about him and his works.

Jesus plainly regarded Genesis as real history.

In Luke 17, Why did Jesus compare the severity of the final judgment of the world to (according to you) a fake mythological event that never happened? (Noah and the flood)

Jesus was THERE at the beginning. He knows everything about creation. And his professed followers are going to hold the wisdom of modern man's theories in higher regard?

the Bible contains many styles of writing, many genres of literature. There is some history in there but not all of it was intended to be historical detail.

What about the Genesis flood containing many specific timings and dates of events. Is that common for allegories?

The Book of Job is a good example.

1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them."

So Satan came in the presence of God? and who are the other "sons".

This is clearly not a historical account, rather, it is a fictional exploration of why bad things happen to good people.

You haven't provided any argument as to why this isn't an actual account of an event. Why do you think it's fictional? Because it refers to fallen angels? I'm left wondering if you believe any supernatural claims in the Bible.... Do you believe Jesus literally cast out demons from people and sent them into pigs?
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,701
1,957
✟77,658.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You seem to think I have an evolution agenda and am forcing it to fit in scripture, well I don't and such an agenda would be irresponsible. I just happen to have a lot of experience with cultures from around the word, eastern philosophies and have studied ancient cultures and their mythologies. So when I read these accounts and pair them with their context surrounding there authorship I recognize them quite acutely. But just because I think the early Genesis accounts are not literal accounts doesn't mean I subscribe to evolution. I'm in fact agnostic to what actually happened.
Those other cultures have myth because it's what they are.
On the other hand what is presented in Genesis isn't myth but rather truth.
 
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,703
1,536
New York, NY
✟153,657.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
You claim "God's word is true" and then say plain verses like Exodus 20:11 are untrue.

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is...


This is either a true statement or it is untrue.
Is the Bible riddled with falsehoods, or is it reliable?

Just because something isn't literate doesn't mean it never happened, it's just wrapped up and packaged metaphorically. This is very common in literature history.
The Bible being true is all about it's message - the relationship between God and man. It's not a book that is about revealing to us this science stuff.

You can even determine that "6 day creation" to be either not literal or just Moses' understanding by just how impossible that would be for a sphere earth.

Has Jesus's claims also been debunked by evidence?
Is his testimony of the Genesis flood in Luke 26 a falsehood?
We have countless of global flood stories from other nations all dating around the same time period. None of their stories are completely true (some from SEA has mermaids in the global flood), but the message and just the event it is talking about is true. This can be said for the global flood in Genesis, unless of course the whole Arc of Noah has been proven by archeologists.

As a believer in God's plainly written word, I see what it really is.
"reasonable faith" is the fear of losing the respect of men..

You can't just preach God's word to others and expect them to believe in Jesus all because of your feelings when it's academically debunked and just plain silly. if a buddhist came to you and expressed his love for his book and how his meditation caused the rainbows to happen as his book says, you wouldn't accept the Buddhist religion due to how silly and academically wrong it is.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
10,095
7,217
70
Midwest
✟368,958.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
"reasonable faith" is the fear of losing the respect of men.. the fear of risking one's social standing.
Trying to lay up treasures in both earth and heaven, and diminishing God's word in the process.

Why can't we simply trust the plain account God gave us?


Why do you cast motive. My belief has nothing to do with social status nor respect of others nor laying up treasure. Rather, something has to make sense to me. Quite often the "plain account" calls for deeper exploration.
 
Upvote 0

Yarddog

Senior Contributor
Site Supporter
Jun 25, 2008
16,857
4,230
Louisville, Ky
✟1,011,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
You had said " All of the different animals are the Gentiles, just like Peter's vision in Acts"

I never heard of that one...Can you present a theological line of reasoning to support that?
Well, my understanding of Genesis and other mysteries of scripture began just before my baptism. God called me to be baptized but Satan didn't want to let me go so he sent demons to try a scare me away from following God's will. Just before I was to be baptized I had a vision of being chased by a demon, who said he would kill me. I was running and came upon a cliff face impeding my escape and beside the cliff was a tall tree. To escape I climbed tree till I could jump to the path at the top of the cliff. I heard the demon say, "You have chosen the Tree of Life".

I didn't connect the Tree with Jesus until several years later. I was reading scripture when I suddenly heard the Holy Spirit say, the Tree of Life is Jesus, the Tree of Knowledge is the Law, and the Tower of Babylon represents all those people who try to attain heaven through their own efforts, including many Christians. In the following years God began removing the veil which concealed my ability to understand Genesis.

Jesus is the Light of creation which is his birth into the world. A world without Jesus is chaos and darkness. The 6th day of the creation story is the Friday which Jesus was crucified. He had accomplished all the works which the Father had given him to do and he said, "It is finished" and died. He then rested on the 7th day which represents God's rest. Eden is that rest.

God created man in Eden. He then created the animals and birds in the Garden. Jesus first went to the Jews to form his Church and God then revealed to Peter that he had cleansed the Gentile in a vision.
Acts 10:11 He saw heaven opened and something resembling a large sheet coming down, lowered to the ground by its four corners. 12 In it were all the earth’s four-legged animals and reptiles and the birds of the sky. 13 A voice said to him, “Get up, Peter. Slaughter and eat.”

We cam also see this in the flood story which is baptism. Washing away the sins of the earth.
 
Upvote 0

lifepsyop

Regular Member
Jan 23, 2014
2,447
761
✟95,310.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It isn't discounting the Bible but making sure we are understanding it correctly

and you claim the correct understanding of the accounts in Genesis is that it didn't happen... literally discounting it.

before projecting a false message that we think it says/means when it is really just us giving "holy credibility" to our lack of knowledge.

Who is projecting a false message? One of us is reading the Bible as it is clearly written. (This happened, then this happened, etc.) And the other is claiming we cannot trust the written account because reasons.

We call it reasonable faith. Since God's word is true and if we presenting a story/message that is debunked by evidence and even reason then we are showing God's word to be fallible.

"debunked by evidence"
In other words you hold the wisdom of men in higher esteem than the Bible.

This is not as complex as you want it to be. One of us believes the Bible, the other doesn't and wants to make excuses for why they don't.

Meanwhile, all non-believers hear is: "See? Even Christians don't believe that silly book. None of that judgment stuff is real... Jesus was just another wise man.... just love your neighbor and everything is good, la la la..."
 
Upvote 0

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
10,095
7,217
70
Midwest
✟368,958.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
When Jesus told about the prodigal son in Luke 15:11-32, 11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons


was he lying?

Or

Talking about an actual historical father and his two sons?

Or was he being creative to make a theological point?
 
Upvote 0

lifepsyop

Regular Member
Jan 23, 2014
2,447
761
✟95,310.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Just because something isn't literate doesn't mean it never happened, it's just wrapped up and packaged metaphorically. This is very common in literature history.

How strange for a metaphor to tell me something happened on the 17th day of the 2nd month, among other specific timing/geologic details... (Gen 7:11)

Do you not see how a plain reading resists the intepretation you wish to impose on it?


The Bible being true is all about it's message - the relationship between God and man. It's not a book that is about revealing to us this science stuff.

And what is there to fear from God if all of his judgments were mere fictional stories and allegories?

Why do non-believers need Jesus? Why can't they just find their own peace with their own concept of who God is? After all, they have Christians like yourself teaching them that the accounts in the Bible aren't even true.


You can even determine that "6 day creation" to be either not literal or just Moses' understanding by just how impossible that would be for a sphere earth.

It's not my interpretation. I'm just reading what the account actually says and believing it because it was inspired by God.


We have countless of global flood stories from other nations all dating around the same time period.

Correct. Nearly all ancient peoples testify to it all over the world, and it's exactly what we would expect if the Genesis account were true. The descendants of Noah (who actually lived through the flood) had their languages confused and were scattered across the earth (Tower of Babel account) ... Over time the memory of the actual flood account morphed into many unique legends distinct to each culture but maintaining most of the central themes of the Genesis account, just like a long game of Telephone.

None of their stories are completely true

And there you are back to disbelieving the Bible.

And by that reasoning, hearing 100 modified versions of the same story proves that none of them are true. It's the same argument that atheists use, though ironically the exact opposite is the case. If there are that many stories about something that all share common elements, chances are they are based off something that really happened.


You can't just preach God's word to others and expect them to believe in Jesus all because of your feelings when it's academically debunked and just plain silly.

You should spend a little more time reading the NT. We are expected to appear foolish to the world.

And the foolishness of God is wiser than men.


if a buddhist came to you and expressed his love for his book and how his meditation caused the rainbows to happen as his book says, you wouldn't accept the Buddhist religion

I reject buddhism because God's word says so. Because Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and nobody and nothing else.

due to how silly and academically wrong it is.

So our academic institutions are the final arbiters of what is true? Not God's word? Not Jesus?
 
Upvote 0

lifepsyop

Regular Member
Jan 23, 2014
2,447
761
✟95,310.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
When Jesus told about the prodigal son in Luke 15:11-32, 11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons


was he lying?

Or

Talking about an actual historical father and his two sons?

Or was he being creative to make a theological point?

Is there a reason it couldn't be both?

Also these are explicitly identified as parables in Luke 15:3. But that doesn't mean the situations described couldn't have actually occurred.

Here Jesus also describes hypothetical scenarios ("what if this thing were to happen" ) of people losing their sheep. It's not like that means people didn't really lose their sheep.
 
Upvote 0

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
10,095
7,217
70
Midwest
✟368,958.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Is there a reason it couldn't be both?

Also these are explicitly identified as parables in Luke 15:3. But that doesn't mean the situations described couldn't have actually occurred.

Here Jesus also describes hypothetical scenarios ("what if this thing were to happen" ) of people losing their sheep. It's not like that means people didn't really lose their sheep.


You didn't answer my question. Jesus did not identify this as a parable. Did it happen or not?
 
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,703
1,536
New York, NY
✟153,657.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
and you claim the correct understanding of the accounts in Genesis is that it didn't happen... literally discounting it.
Not that it didn't happen, but just not to be taken literal. You can read St Augustine on this.


Who is projecting a false message? One of us is reading the Bible as it is clearly written. (This happened, then this happened, etc.) And the other is claiming we cannot trust the written account because reasons.
You are interpreting the Bible literally, there are some content in the Bible just isn't literal. That is what I am saying, you are taking me out of context.

"debunked by evidence"
In other words you hold the wisdom of men in higher esteem than the Bible.
why "of men". This is all just basic facts. Why do we just deny/reject facts, that makes the Bible look fallible. We need to have an intelligent basis for these things otherwise, what arguments can we have that differ from other religions if we are all just basing things on mere-belief by reading? How can you say "God's word is true" when not only does your claims get disputed by academics and basic reasoning?
I've asked you, how is a 6 day creation possible for a sphere earth? If it is Thursday 8pm in NYC, it's Friday 9am at Hong Kong? Even if you say the continents where all joined together (as science says with continental drift theory), there is still no way for every land on earth to experience the same time. Unless it's flat.

This is not as complex as you want it to be. One of us believes the Bible, the other doesn't and wants to make excuses for why they don't.
So if i take the description: "the land flowing with Milk and Honey" to be literally a land flowing with stuff that comes from cows and honey, does this mean I believe in the Bible?
 
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,703
1,536
New York, NY
✟153,657.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
How strange for a metaphor to tell me something happened on the 17th day of the 2nd month, among other specific timing/geologic details... (Gen 7:11)

Do you not see how a plain reading resists the intepretation you wish to impose on it?

Example: During 2pm of June 17 at the Highschool sportsfest, the Giants have retained their spot as the top dog basketball team. They've spit fire, totally decimating the opposite team, with burning layups.

So i guess, since there is dates then that must mean they were actual dogs that where spitting fire, with layups that actually burned?

Correct. Nearly all ancient peoples testify to it all over the world, and it's exactly what we would expect if the Genesis account were true. The descendants of Noah (who actually lived through the flood) snip.
Yes, but you've missed the point. We can confirm or have a good argument for it's historicity but that doesn't mean all details are literal. Some could be artistically expressed, or explained through symbology, just like the example I gave.

I reject buddhism because God's word says so. Because Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and nobody and nothing else.
But what about the people of other faiths, they can use the same thing by saying their god says so. So you are just throwing straws at each other, how do you show the other person that his beliefs are false? If somebody who believes lord of the rings as a religion and Gandolf is God, and starts telling you that it is all correct because his God's word says so. How do you confirm he is likely incorrect, just out of your feelings?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Site Supporter
May 15, 2008
10,115
3,436
✟992,821.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
That's a long way of saying that you believe Genesis is a lie.

Jesus Christ is The Word made flesh. The alpha and omega, the beginning and the end of all creation.

Was Jesus really just lying when he testified to the Genesis flood in Luke 17:26 ?

Jesus was comparing the flood to His return, and the judgment that comes with him.
Is that all made up nonsense as well?

Why choose the wisdom of men over the plain word of God? Why not just believe what he said he did?

There is an American story about Washington cutting down a cherry tree and is praised by his father for not lying. This account shows us the value of honesty above all else in western culture, we read it and praise him and strive to be like that.

In Eastern culture, however, the cutting down the tree would bring dishonour to his father and regardless if Washington tells the truth or not the dishonour overpowers it. the American account puts glory on the virtues and on Washington himself, even his own Father praises him, but if it were an Eastern account the boy would get no praise at all regardless if he told the truth and he would be reprimanded for putting dishonour on his household.

truthfulness and giving honour are virtues held in high regard, the former in western cultures and the latter in eastern cultures. When they clash the west will look to the truth as the ultimate moral high ground even if it gives dishonour where the east will look to honour as the ultimate moral high ground even if they have to "lie". I say "lie" loosely because in eastern philosophy it is most important to uphold honour and the details that form that honour are justified and would not be called a lie.

We see this in Eastern Christianity as well. The first council of Nicene (where the Nicene Creed was made) the Orthodox number of bishops who attended is 318. The actual number is probably lower than 300 so why did they "lie"? 318 is a unique number that can represent Christ and is also the number of men Abraham took with him to rescue Lot. This number gave more glory to the council and ordained it better. Even though it wasn't the real number it was the best number. that's a very simple example but eastern Christianity is full of accounts that use the "better versions" because the value is not to retell the literal accounts as they happened but to give glory to Church and to Christ so the details that make up the accounts can be fluid.

In Ancient Hebrew this is more complicated. They operate with in something called "block logic" where ideas are formed in blocks of information. Each block has a point to be made but are unique and do not have to agree with other blocks in their detail and there is a tension that is created that is left alone and does not demand to be fixed. In western culture, we operate on step logic where each idea directly leads into the next and as a whole make up the complete conclusion. When there is a problem it must be reconciled and all must agree.

For example, light was spoken into being on day 1 and the sun created on day 4. In Hebraic Block logic, however, this doesn't matter an no one cares because each day is a separate block and both days may exist in tension at the same time. Western logic, however, demands these to be reconciled and will invent stuff in the middle to fix the text like saying the light on day 1 must be different than the light on day 4. The text doesn't say these things but western logic will go to every length to make sure it fits in a step logic space.

What is important in Hebraic Block Logic or Eastern logic is not the details that make the accounts but what the details point to. in Western logic the details are the most important thing. The OT was written under steeped Eastern logic and we can reveal it in a western logic space but need to understand the framework it is created under and not simply seek to fit it in western logic but rather explain the process and tension that is happening in the text that eastern logic creates.

if you still call it lying then you've missed the point. (btw - the Washington account never actually happened and is a complete fabrication, is it a lie too?)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Site Supporter
May 15, 2008
10,115
3,436
✟992,821.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Those other cultures have myth because it's what they are.
On the other hand what is presented in Genesis isn't myth but rather truth.
the early Genesis accounts point to truth so cannot be called mythologies. I don't think that has anything to do with if they are literal accounts or not.
 
Upvote 0

lifepsyop

Regular Member
Jan 23, 2014
2,447
761
✟95,310.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Example: During 2pm of June 17 at the Highschool sportsfest, the Giants have retained their spot as the top dog basketball team. They've spit fire, totally decimating the opposite team, with burning layups.

So i guess, since there is dates then that must mean they were actual dogs that where spitting fire, with layups that actually burned?

But then in the Genesis account there are more details laid out matter-of-factly, (e.g. After X days the water was this high, after X days it was this high, etc.)

You can believe Genesis is an allegory, but I don't think you can honestly claim that it is written as one. It reads as a factual historical account no matter how much we might want it not to.

And then it is up to us whether we want to believe God's word or change it according to our own desires.
 
Upvote 0

lifepsyop

Regular Member
Jan 23, 2014
2,447
761
✟95,310.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
the early Genesis accounts point to truth so cannot be called mythologies. I don't think that has anything to do with if they are literal accounts or not.

Yet they were clearly written as literal accounts. We are even given the exact year, month, and day that certain events took place.

Are the doctrines of men more important? Why not just trust God's word that it happened like he says it did? Believe him.
 
Upvote 0