• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

If Evolution were true...

Status
Not open for further replies.

mathclub

Newbie
May 15, 2011
597
6
Switzerland
✟23,338.00
Faith
Atheist
We would see living transitional species. We wouldn’t have to look into a fossil record to find them. They would be all around us.

We would see no families. There would be no species. There would be no species of a family. We would see no divisions.

Right now, we don’t see any transitional species. We see species of fish. We see species of birds. We see species of bacteria. We can neatly classify things and put them into families. We sometimes see new types of bacteria. But they are still bacteria. New species of birds that are still birds. We see every living creature belongs to a family. Logically, if this is true today, then it has always been true. Birds have always been birds. Fish have always been fish. It follows that there have never been any transitional species. There have always been families since creation.

Your understanding and view of evolution is totally wrong, and as a result almost everything you wrote here is incorrect.

The best model to describe evolution is probabaly the most commonly used 'tree of life'. There are some issues with it, but it's good enough for our purposes here. Let's imagine that all life that has ever existed on our planet is represented in a massive tree. The very earliest form of life is the trunk, and then as time passes and the tree grows up, species split off and form different branches. I'm sure you are familiar with this concept.

Now, the 'families' you refer to are simply all descendants from a particular split at some time in the past. Let's use birds as an example. So if you go back far enough there are no birds on the tree at all, but there are dinosaurs. Then from the branch on our tree that represents dinosaurs there is a split off into a new species of animal that is the common ancestor of every bird that is alive today or has ever lived. Now this animal may not look very birdlike, and probably still retains a lot of dinosaur characteristics, but over time it's ancestors will evolve into what we recognise as birds. Thus the bird family is born.

This is exactly what we would expect to see 'should evolution be true', as the thread asks. Families of animals that are similar, that are related more closely to some other families and less closely to others, depending where they split off from them. We are more closley related to dogs than we are to sharks, because the common ancestor we share with dogs split off much more recently than our common ancestor with sharks.

Now the way that nature works is that once you have split off you can not rejoin that branch again. Humans cannot mate with sharks and produce offspring, so the homo sapien branch will never rejoin up with the shark branch, or the dog branch or any other branch. And ALL descendants of birds in the future will always be birds. they will never change into another family. Of course over time there will be a new sub-family that will branch off that will not look like birds and will be called something different, but they will still be birds. Birds are actually a good example of this because birds are all dinosaurs. All descendants of the branch known as dinosaurs will always be dinosaurs. Now birds, as we discussed above, are part of the dinosaur family, so they are all still dinosaurs, even tho they don't look like what we think of as dinosaurs, and we call them something different ie 'birds'. They are a sub-family of dinosaurs. This is the same as in the future whatever sub-family of birds splits off and looks nothing like birds and is called something different, they will always be part of the larger bird family and the even larger dinosaur family. Birds will never turn into non-birds. Only into some animal that looks nothing like a bird and has a different name, but is still ultimately a bird, the same way every bird is ultimately a dinosaur.

If you understand what I wrote above, and i sincerely hope you do, then you will understand why the comments you made above are totally and utterly incorrect.

Lastly, on your 'transitional species' comment. Every animal alive on the planet today is a transitional species.

Right now is just some arbritary point in time of life on our planet, let's call it 'now'. We could go back a long way, hundreds of millions of years, to another point in time and look at every animal alive on the planet, let's call that 'then'. If we go back far enough we will see that not a single species that exists 'then' also exists 'now'. And not a single species that exists 'now' also existed 'then'. Every single species from 'then' has either evolved into a modern species or gone extinct. In that same way there will be a point some hundreds of millions of years in the future, where none of the species that exist today will still be around. Every single species will either evolve into a new species or it will go extinct. Therefore every single species in the world today is a transitional form.

The world is exactly as it should be if evolution were true, and nothing about it is any different from that.
 
Upvote 0

mathclub

Newbie
May 15, 2011
597
6
Switzerland
✟23,338.00
Faith
Atheist
James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

I have a problem with that, in that what you say looks like it has come from the bible, and I don't accept anything in the bible as being true unless it has been independantly verified. Are you able to give me any examples of modern miracles that have happened that I can independantly verify actually did happen? Ie droughts or cancer cures or anything you consider to be a miracle?
 
Upvote 0

MarkT

Veteran
Mar 23, 2004
1,709
26
✟2,404.00
Faith
OK... so its time now to move the goal posts! So .. you want transitionals between higher taxa now. Well then.. how about our little friend the platypus? He is a mammal, but has many reptilian features, such as laying leathery eggs.

Next, you say we have no transitionals in the fossil record. How about:
1. Fishapods from the Devonian: Devonian Times - Front Page
2. Mammal-like reptiles: Evolution: From Reptiles to Mammals
3. Archaeopteryx: Archaeopteryx - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Finally, you scoff at extinctions. Yet, it is estimated that about 99% of every species that has lived on earth is extinct. Keeping that in mind, it is hardly surprising to find so many transitionals extinct.

From a creationist point of view, there's no rule that says a platypus can't lay eggs, if it was meant to lay eggs.

However, what I mean by transitional species would be an ancestor of the platypus, not the platypus.

By transitional species, I'm refering to all those species that must have come before the species of whatever that we see today - species that exhibit a type of change that we don't see in any other member of the family they belong to. We don't see them.

Mathclub says species split off and formed branches. Would that be a small change or a big change? I'd say branching would be a type of change we should not see in a family.

Certainly we are now going in a different direction. We're going from improving the breed to a transformation inconsistent with the notion of a small change. What would cause this branching? Don't tell me natural selection. There's nothing natural about it. We don't see this branching in nature. There's no accounting for it. No precedent. Birds remain birds. Moths remain moths. Bacteria remain bacteria.

If you could go back in time to any point in time, you will probably find the same thing. At any point in time in the past, you will not find any living transitional species, especially common ancestors. Yet they should exist in abundance. Of course you will say they went extinct. One million years ago? They went extinct. A hundred million years ago? They went extinct. It's easy to say. But what if they never existed?

Also from a creationist point of view, there's nothing that says two entirely different creatures can not have wings.
 
Upvote 0

rjc34

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2011
1,382
16
✟1,769.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Others
However, what I mean by transitional species would be an ancestor of the platypus, not the platypus.

All species are transitional. What you're really implying is that you think we need to find a 'crocoduck' or something else ridiculous that should still be alive today.

By transitional species, I'm refering to all those species that must have come before the species of whatever that we see today - species that exhibit a type of change that we don't see in any other member of the family they belong to. We don't see them.

I think this statement stems again from your weak understanding of evolution.

Mathclub says species split off and formed branches. Would that be a small change or a big change? I'd say branching would be a type of change we should not see in a family.

Luckily for us, you don't get to define what speciation is. We've seen it in the wild, and we've seen it in the lab. When a common ancestor branches off and forms two or more distinct species through the many mechanisms of evolution, branches are created.

Certainly we are now going in a different direction. We're going from improving the breed to a transformation inconsistent with the notion of a small change.

What's with you guys a big change? Evolution takes millions of years, and is completely based on small, almost unnoticeable changes...

What would cause this branching?

Speciation.

Don't tell me natural selection. There's nothing natural about it. We don't see this branching in nature.

Too bad we do, though. Branching is speciation, and we have seen it both in the lab and in nature. See here for an explanation of species, and dozens upon dozens of observed instances of speciation.

There's no accounting for it. No precedent. Birds remain birds. Moths remain moths. Bacteria remain bacteria.

That's because evolution acts on the micro scale, over long periods of time. A bird is a bird, but if a bird is born with a mutation that makes its beak grow longer or sharper, and it helps it in a way that gives it a better chance of reproducing (ie longer beak, more food, etc) then it will pass on those genes. Tiny, advantageous mutations add up.

If you could go back in time to any point in time, you will probably find the same thing. At any point in time in the past, you will not find any living transitional species, especially common ancestors. Yet they should exist in abundance. Of course you will say they went extinct. One million years ago? They went extinct. A hundred million years ago? They went extinct. It's easy to say. But what if they never existed?

So when evolutionary theory predicts a fish-reptile transitional form will have existed somewhere around the late Devonian period, and then after years of searching, researchers actually find it, what would you say then? It existed, it was real. I'm talking about Tiktaalik.

You should probably also do a little research into fossilization and how incredibly rarely it occurs. It's amazing we have any fossils at all.
 
Upvote 0

VehementiDominus

Active Member
May 12, 2011
307
13
England
✟520.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
From a creationist point of view, there's no rule that says a platypus can't lay eggs, if it was meant to lay eggs.

However, what I mean by transitional species would be an ancestor of the platypus, not the platypus.

By transitional species, I'm refering to all those species that must have come before the species of whatever that we see today - species that exhibit a type of change that we don't see in any other member of the family they belong to. We don't see them.

Mathclub says species split off and formed branches. Would that be a small change or a big change? I'd say branching would be a type of change we should not see in a family.

Certainly we are now going in a different direction. We're going from improving the breed to a transformation inconsistent with the notion of a small change. What would cause this branching? Don't tell me natural selection. There's nothing natural about it. We don't see this branching in nature. There's no accounting for it. No precedent. Birds remain birds. Moths remain moths. Bacteria remain bacteria.

If you could go back in time to any point in time, you will probably find the same thing. At any point in time in the past, you will not find any living transitional species, especially common ancestors. Yet they should exist in abundance. Of course you will say they went extinct. One million years ago? They went extinct. A hundred million years ago? They went extinct. It's easy to say. But what if they never existed?

Also from a creationist point of view, there's nothing that says two entirely different creatures can not have wings.

Are you aware of ring species?

They're all still the same species, yet because of migration and mutations, each one can only mate with the ones nearest it.

ring%20species.gif


A can mate with A1 and Aa, A1 can mate with A and A2, A2 can mate with A1 and A3, etc.

However, when the population meets itself again at A5 and Ae, they're too different to mate. Even though A5 can still mate with A4, and A4 can mate with A3 and A5, etc, all the way back to A.

"Mathclub says species split off and formed branches. Would that be a small change or a big change? I'd say branching would be a type of change we should not see in a family."

We do see species split off and form branches, ring species is just one of many ways those branches form.
 
Upvote 0

Greg1234

In the beginning was El
May 14, 2010
3,745
38
✟19,292.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Luckily for us, you don't get to define what speciation is. We've seen it in the wild, and we've seen it in the lab. When a common ancestor branches off and forms two or more distinct species through the many mechanisms of evolution, branches are created.
Unfortunately, the mechanism behind speciation, like "beneficial mutation", does not help Darwinism. For instance, a fruit fly infected with an organism causing sterility was listed as speciation as it coukdnt mate with others within its species. Others like reproductive isolation, polyploidy etc are all pointed to as the agency behind microbe to man phenomena.
What's with you guys a big change? Evolution takes millions of years, and is completely based on small, almost unnoticeable changes...
These small changes are not in compliance with Darwiniam. Adaptation is dominated by loss of function and degradation. Small changes extending into large changes over time would simply be the aforementioned types of changes over long periods of time.
So when evolutionary theory predicts a fish-reptile transitional form will have existed somewhere around the late Devonian period, and then after years of searching, researchers actually find it, what would you say then? It existed, it was real. I'm talking about Tiktaalik.
Evolutionary Biologists Are Unaware of Their Own Arguments: Reappraising <i>Nature</i>'s Prized "Gem," <i>Tiktaalik</i> (Updated) - Evolution News & Views
 
Upvote 0

driewerf

a day at the Zoo
Mar 7, 2010
3,434
1,961
✟267,108.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Why is that automatically considered a miracle, when long droughts in the desert are pretty common? Why automatically assume God must have done it, rather than it just being a coincidence?

Does God continue to mess with the weather? If so, I must ask exactly why the Bible belt was just hit with so many tornadoes, and even areas with tons of Christians praying still get absolutely devastated by weather events? Does he just not care? Are they the wrong type of Christian and he is angry?
And why is a country like Belgium (with church attendance bellow 10% and same sex marriage legal) never hit by tornadoes, or earthquakes?
 
Upvote 0

Hespera

Junior Member
Dec 16, 2008
7,237
201
usa
✟8,860.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Private
Your understanding and view of evolution is totally wrong, and as a result almost everything you wrote here is incorrect.

The best model to describe evolution is probabaly the most commonly used 'tree of life'. There are some issues with it, but it's good enough for our purposes here. Let's imagine that all life that has ever existed on our planet is represented in a massive tree. The very earliest form of life is the trunk, and then as time passes and the tree grows up, species split off and form different branches. I'm sure you are familiar with this concept.

Now, the 'families' you refer to are simply all descendants from a particular split at some time in the past. Let's use birds as an example. So if you go back far enough there are no birds on the tree at all, but there are dinosaurs. Then from the branch on our tree that represents dinosaurs there is a split off into a new species of animal that is the common ancestor of every bird that is alive today or has ever lived. Now this animal may not look very birdlike, and probably still retains a lot of dinosaur characteristics, but over time it's ancestors will evolve into what we recognise as birds. Thus the bird family is born.

This is exactly what we would expect to see 'should evolution be true', as the thread asks. Families of animals that are similar, that are related more closely to some other families and less closely to others, depending where they split off from them. We are more closley related to dogs than we are to sharks, because the common ancestor we share with dogs split off much more recently than our common ancestor with sharks.

Now the way that nature works is that once you have split off you can not rejoin that branch again. Humans cannot mate with sharks and produce offspring, so the homo sapien branch will never rejoin up with the shark branch, or the dog branch or any other branch. And ALL descendants of birds in the future will always be birds. they will never change into another family. Of course over time there will be a new sub-family that will branch off that will not look like birds and will be called something different, but they will still be birds. Birds are actually a good example of this because birds are all dinosaurs. All descendants of the branch known as dinosaurs will always be dinosaurs. Now birds, as we discussed above, are part of the dinosaur family, so they are all still dinosaurs, even tho they don't look like what we think of as dinosaurs, and we call them something different ie 'birds'. They are a sub-family of dinosaurs. This is the same as in the future whatever sub-family of birds splits off and looks nothing like birds and is called something different, they will always be part of the larger bird family and the even larger dinosaur family. Birds will never turn into non-birds. Only into some animal that looks nothing like a bird and has a different name, but is still ultimately a bird, the same way every bird is ultimately a dinosaur.

If you understand what I wrote above, and i sincerely hope you do, then you will understand why the comments you made above are totally and utterly incorrect.

Lastly, on your 'transitional species' comment. Every animal alive on the planet today is a transitional species.

Right now is just some arbritary point in time of life on our planet, let's call it 'now'. We could go back a long way, hundreds of millions of years, to another point in time and look at every animal alive on the planet, let's call that 'then'. If we go back far enough we will see that not a single species that exists 'then' also exists 'now'. And not a single species that exists 'now' also existed 'then'. Every single species from 'then' has either evolved into a modern species or gone extinct. In that same way there will be a point some hundreds of millions of years in the future, where none of the species that exist today will still be around. Every single species will either evolve into a new species or it will go extinct. Therefore every single species in the world today is a transitional form.

The world is exactly as it should be if evolution were true, and nothing about it is any different from that.
its like i say, without something phony to attack the creos wouldnt have anything at all to attack.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,258
52,668
Guam
✟5,158,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Why is that automatically considered a miracle, when long droughts in the desert are pretty common?
It was throughout all the land.

Luke 4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

Adam Clarke's Commentary said:
There were two of these in Judea, called the first and the latter rains; the first fell in October, the latter in April: the first prepared the ground for the seed, the latter ripened the harvest. As both these rains were withheld, consequently there was a great famine throughout all the land.

This was hardly a natural occurrence.
Why automatically assume God must have done it, rather than it just being a coincidence?
Because God admitted to it -- in Writing.
Does God continue to mess with the weather?
Yes, God continues to "mess" with the weather.
If so, I must ask exactly why the Bible belt was just hit with so many tornadoes, and even areas with tons of Christians praying still get absolutely devastated by weather events?

Judgment begins at the house of God first.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

God punishes His own first, then others.
Does he just not care? Are they the wrong type of Christian and he is angry?
Your choices show a lack of understanding.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,258
52,668
Guam
✟5,158,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Name one miracle, that has happened to someone who has prayed to god and could not happen to someone who has not prayed to god.
1 Kings 18:36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,258
52,668
Guam
✟5,158,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I have a problem with that, in that what you say looks like it has come from the bible, and I don't accept anything in the bible as being true unless it has been independantly verified.
Then you're not going to accept anything I say, are you?
Are you able to give me any examples of modern miracles that have happened that I can independantly verify actually did happen?
I doubt you would even try.

For example, if I said God cured me of [whatever], how would you respond?
Ie droughts or cancer cures or anything you consider to be a miracle?
If you're really that interested, get a copy of Guidepost Magazine, then get a team of mythbusters up and head out on the road.

Sorry, Math, I'm taking your curiosity with a grain of salt.
 
Upvote 0

Gracchus

Senior Veteran
Dec 21, 2002
7,199
821
California
Visit site
✟38,182.00
Faith
Pantheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Unfortunately, the mechanism behind speciation, like "beneficial mutation", does not help Darwinism. For instance, a fruit fly infected with an organism causing sterility was listed as speciation as it coukdnt mate with others within its species.
Citations should be provided for such a ... rather odd ... claim. Who did this listing and where was it "listed"?
Others like reproductive isolation, polyploidy etc are all pointed to as the agency behind microbe to man phenomena.
Your point being...?

These small changes are not in compliance with Darwiniam.
Your objections is not in compliance with reason.
Adaptation is dominated by loss of function and degradation.
That makes no sense. Adaptation is change that produces a benefit. Nor does it make sense to claim, that it is characterized by loss of function and degradation. Cite this loss of function or degradation and how they lead to adaptation.
Small changes extending into large changes over time would simply be the aforementioned types of changes over long periods of time.
So... "Small changes extending into large changes over time would simply be the aforementioned types of changes over long periods of time."! How does stating the obvious support your position, or argue against evolution? Perhaps what you were trying to say did not make it into your post because of the disjointed and chaotic thought processes that have evidently, and it is to be hoped temporarily, disordered your mind.

:confused:
 
Upvote 0

rjc34

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2011
1,382
16
✟1,769.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Others
It was throughout all the land.

Luke 4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;


Did anyone else bother to write it down? A 3.5 year drought over the whole world should attract the attention of the more affluent cultures like the Chinese and Egyptians, who would definitely have documented such an event.


Yes, God continues to "mess" with the weather.

Does he control all the weather? Are all disasters caused by him?


Judgment begins at the house of God first.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

God punishes His own first, then others.

Glad I'm not in that house then. Hopefully I'll get some kind of punishment that can't be explained by natural means, you know, a miracle. Thus if I live I can go on proclaiming that a god exists! (If he doesn't specify which one he is, I'm going to assume Zeus, or maybe Ra.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,258
52,668
Guam
✟5,158,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Did anyone else bother to write it down?
I assume it was local to the land of Israel, but let's assume it was worldwide.

How do you know then, that others didn't write it down as well?

God preserves His word, not everyone elses'.
 
Upvote 0

rjc34

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2011
1,382
16
✟1,769.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Others
I assume it was local to the land of Israel, but let's assume it was worldwide.

How do you know then, that others didn't write it down as well?

God preserves His word, not everyone elses'.

Because we have great documentation by both the Chinese and the Egyptians around that time? Such a drought would have caused millions of deaths and wouldn't have soon been forgotten.
 
Upvote 0

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2005
6,032
116
46
✟6,911.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
I understand that this is what is assumed, but there is no evidence to support the assumption.

To claim the mechanism that gets us variety among equines, canines, finches, fruit flies, etc. can get us from bacteria to all the various lifeforms that have existed is pure philosophical assumption. To play off of your analogy, it's like saying since you can walk from California to Maine you can walk from Earth to Mars if you're just given enough time. It is never going to happen naturally.

Not quite.

When it comes to evolution, we know that the processes for micro evolution exist, because we have seen them. We know that the processes for macro evolution exist because they are the same as the ones for micro evolution, there is no known mechanism that prevents them from causing macro evolution, and the evidence we have (fossil record, DNA tracing etc) supports it.

When it comes to your walking to Mars because you can walk to Maine idea, there is a mechanism that prevents you from walking to Mars - the lack of a solid surface which is required by the act of walking.

It has no naturalistic explanation now, and my money is on it never will.

Reality isn't determined by playing the odds.

Funny, this is precisely what Naturalism does.

Science is based on observable and testable and repeatable evidence.

Based on speculation and evidence interpreted through a naturalistic paradigm.

And it works. it not only fits the data we have, but has allowed us to predict data that, at the time the prediction was made, was not available.

In reality, you aren't talking about 'predictions', you are talking about 'retrodictions' which seek to explain why the world is as we observe it.

I am talking about people who were able to look at things in the real world and say, "Based on the existence of this, I predict that we will find an animal with such-and-such characteristics." it is a prediction, not a postdiction because they were predicting the dioscovery of an unknown animal, not the existence of it.

These concepts weren't developed by people locked in a basement their whole life with no access to the world around them. This trying to put the clues together to determine the past and you start with the assumptions of Naturalism and they shade everything you see and hypothesize.

As I have said before, science does not start with assumptions. it starts with evidence gathered from the real world.

It's called an analogy. I didn't say, "it's like saying if our genitals were in our mouth, what would you expect to be different?".

You asked what would be different if kissing was the cause of pregnancy. I answered it. To now come and say that you meant "And nothing else was changed" is moving the goalposts. Tjings do not exist in a vaccuum. If kissing caused pregnancy, then many other things would be changed as well.

If by evolution you mean change within types of animals over successive generation resulting in limited variety, such as wolf to dog or the equine ancestor to horses, zebras, and donkeys, I don't dismiss those.

That's good.

If, instead, you are referring to universal common descent, I reject them because they are pure naturalistic speculation not at all rooted in scientific observation.

You are incorrect. DNA comparisons and the fossil record are two examples of evidence that this occurs.

Some of the evidence in support of theism are absolute morality, reason, evidence of design in nano-technology within cells, genetic code, avian lung, human hands, life, and prophecy, to name a few.

There's no such thing as absolute morality. If there is, can you tell me the absolute moral position on smacking a disobediant child? I can give you a wealth of morally ambiguous hypotheticals that have no clear cut right or wrong. If there is an absolute morality, then you should be able to give answers to them easily. Would you like to try? And remember, just because most people agree with it, doesn't make it an objective thing.

We would see living transitional species. We wouldn’t have to look into a fossil record to find them. They would be all around us.

Technically, every species alive is a trasnsitional species between what came before and what will come after.

However, if you mean, "why are there no half reptile, half bird" animals, it is because they were outcompeted by the birds they evolved into. After all, if they could make a living just as well as birds, then there would have been no selective pressures driving them to become birds.

We would see no families. There would be no species. There would be no species of a family. We would see no divisions.

Why not?

Right now, we don’t see any transitional species. We see species of fish. We see species of birds. We see species of bacteria. We can neatly classify things and put them into families. We sometimes see new types of bacteria. But they are still bacteria. New species of birds that are still birds. We see every living creature belongs to a family. Logically, if this is true today, then it has always been true. Birds have always been birds. Fish have always been fish. It follows that there have never been any transitional species. There have always been families since creation.

The evolution you are speaking of takes millions of years to occur. Why do you think we should see it hapening before our eyes?

BTW, Birds were once dinosaurs.

Then you're not going to accept anything I say, are you?

If what you say is true, AV, you;d have more than the Bible to support you.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,258
52,668
Guam
✟5,158,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Because we have great documentation by both the Chinese and the Egyptians around that time? Such a drought would have caused millions of deaths and wouldn't have soon been forgotten.
Then it was a local drought -- case solved, eh?
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,258
52,668
Guam
✟5,158,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Depends, any other sources on that drought? Or just an account written half a century after the alleged events happened?
If it was documented in the Bible, it happened -- case closed.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.