• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

If Evolution were true...

Status
Not open for further replies.

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
how does any of that show the laws were different?
Because the spiritual was part of the reality on the ground here. The spirit kings of Egypt for example. That agrees with sons of god mingling with women. The long lives of people is also supported in the Sumer record.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Wow... you're really off the deep end, chief. I guess people are correct; you do think you're God.
The way I, or anyone gets to decide on what is real science, is by looking at what is known. Easy.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
No, dad. You are not a scientist and you do not do science. Therefore, you do not get to decide what science is. Them's the rules of something we call "reality." Look it up. :wave:
Being a scientist more or less disqualifies one from thinking outside the box. They are programmed for years as to what science is, and all sorts of silly godless myth is tagged on. Expecting them to know the difference is like expecting a frog not to be wet.
 
Upvote 0

CaliforniaSun

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
2,104
41
✟2,613.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Being a scientist more or less disqualifies one from thinking outside the box. They are programmed for years as to what science is, and all sorts of silly godless myth is tagged on. Expecting them to know the difference is like expecting a frog not to be wet.
What's easier, to believe in bigfoot, or not to believe in bigfoot?
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Hey Dad, because this discussion about whether the laws of the universe were different in the past is off topic for this thread, I've started another thread specifically for that, okay? You can find it HERE. Please keep that discussion to that thread.
The basis for claims is relevant to any thread. No getting away from it. Old age evolution depends on present laws (and a very active and godless imagination), OK?
 
Upvote 0

rjc34

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2011
1,382
16
✟1,769.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Others
The basis for claims is relevant to any thread. No getting away from it. Old age evolution depends on present laws (and a very active and godless imagination), OK?

And Young age creationism depends on your baseless and unsupported assertions. Except science produces results that we can use. So which one do you support?
 
Upvote 0

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2005
6,032
116
46
✟6,911.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
The basis for claims is relevant to any thread. No getting away from it. Old age evolution depends on present laws (and a very active and godless imagination), OK?

Yes, and for the purposes of this thread, we are assuming that evolution does occur.

So, what is the differenc ebetween a universe where evolution has and is still occuring, and a universe where evolution never occured?
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Yes, and for the purposes of this thread, we are assuming that evolution does occur.
It does...so? You want to stick to the decades of science??
So, what is the differenc ebetween a universe where evolution has and is still occuring, and a universe where evolution never occured?
One exists.
 
Upvote 0

driewerf

a day at the Zoo
Mar 7, 2010
3,434
1,961
✟267,108.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Where's my daisy-chain, Mr False Accuser?

You seemed to have lost a major part of my point, didn't you? or did you do it on purpose?

Also, didn't I mention that the earth should be one big graveyard?

Do you see Coccolithophores all over the earth?

A gentle reminder: you posted your 'jiliions-post' on march the 17th, and I posted the picture of the Cliffs of Dover the same day.
You posted your daisy chain on the 19th, so two days after your initial challenge was met. So yes sir, your are moving the goalposts.

As for the whole earth coverd by fossils. We have already the said chalk formations. We have the bottom of the oceans were tons of formas are found. We find fossils from the highlands of Pakistan to the desert of the Sahara, from Souht America to China. So yes, the whole earth is covered with fossils.

Hey, AV1611VET, apparantly you forgot to answer this post.
 
Upvote 0

WretchedMan

Ambassador for Jesus Christ
Apr 1, 2010
264
10
Arkansas, USA
✟22,946.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I'm honestly trying to come up with an answer to your question but I'm having a bit of trouble.

The main concepts that are complicating giving you the answer you are wanting are:

1) The claim of common descent of all life from a common ancestor (I prefer and will use 'universal common descent' to refer to this idea since I am not convinced that it can be piggy-backed onto the mechanism at work in, for example, the descent of horses, zebras, and donkeys from a common ancestor).

2) Naturalism, which is a philosophical position that has been imposed on science in the last 150+ years.



If you want to know what I would expect to be biologically different about the world if only strictly known natural processes were at work in it and we were starting with a single bacteria (that magical single bacteria equipped out of the box for reproduction, metabolization, etc., whose origin Naturalism cannot account for), I would expect a dead planet or, possibly, a planet populated by a variety of cannibalistic bacteria, at best.



If, as I assume, you're wondering what I would expect the biological world to be like if universal common descent were true, that's the more difficult one.

The reason it is difficult is that universal common descent is a concept that has been crafted in an attempt to explain, via naturalism, all the biodiversity that has ever existed. If this idea is supposed to be an explanation for how things are the way they are, it seems a meaningless thought experiment to explain what would be different if it were true. You may as well ask, "If kissing were the cause of pregnancy, what would you expect to be different about babies?". The cause for what already is is what would be different.

The most fundamental question is whether Naturalism is true. If it is, universal common descent is the most logical hypothesis we currently have, that I am aware of. If Naturalism is false, we lose the only compelling reason to accept universal common descent as true.

I do not see any persuasive arguments to conclude that Naturalism is true. Rather, I see compelling arguments against it and for Theism.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2005
6,032
116
46
✟6,911.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
I'm honestly trying to come up with an answer to your question but I'm having a bit of trouble.

The main concepts that are complicating giving you the answer you are wanting are:

1) The claim of common descent of all life from a common ancestor (I prefer and will use 'universal common descent' to refer to this idea since I am not convinced that it can be piggy-backed onto the mechanism at work in, for example, the descent of horses, zebras, and donkeys from a common ancestor).

2) Naturalism, which is a philosophical position that has been imposed on science in the last 150+ years.

The mechanism that created the differences between horses and zebras and donkeys is the same mechanism that created the differences between horses and trees and sparrows and whales. The only difference is a matter of degree. To claim that "micro-evolution" can't lead to "macro-evolution" is like saying that no one can walk a mile because the largest step that a person can take is a few feet at most. great distances can be traveresed by the simple act of taking many little steps, and likewise, great changes in organisms can come about by lots of little changes over many generations.

If you want to know what I would expect to be biologically different about the world if only strictly known natural processes were at work in it and we were starting with a single bacteria (that magical single bacteria equipped out of the box for reproduction, metabolization, etc., whose origin Naturalism cannot account for), I would expect a dead planet or, possibly, a planet populated by a variety of cannibalistic bacteria, at best.

First, are youn saying that science has no explanation, or that science will never have an explanation. There's a difference between the unexplained and the unexplainable.

Secondly, I fear you are using your conclusion to support your premise.

The reason it is difficult is that universal common descent is a concept that has been crafted in an attempt to explain, via naturalism, all the biodiversity that has ever existed. If this idea is supposed to be an explanation for how things are the way they are, it seems a meaningless thought experiment to explain what would be different if it were true.

That is because it is based on evidence.

But, if you are right and evolution does not occur, tbhen the claims evolution makes must be wrong. Hence, the world that evolution predicts must be different to the world we see. A possible answer would be, "If evolution were true, we would see some mechanism by which trsaits are transfered from parent to child" or "There would be some explanation why only certain traits are passed on, and never other traits".

You may as well ask, "If kissing were the cause of pregnancy, what would you expect to be different about babies?". The cause for what already is is what would be different.

Given that the genetic material required for conceiving a baby would, in this case, be transfered via the mouth, then the reproductive organs would be located in the upper body. thus, we would see differences in babies in that they would not be born with their genitals between their legs.

I do not see any persuasive arguments to conclude that Naturalism is true. Rather, I see compelling arguments against it and for Theism.

Given the many arguments in support of evolution, could you explain why you dismiss them? And what evidence do you have supporting Theism?
 
Upvote 0

JustMeSee

Contributor
Feb 9, 2008
7,703
297
In my living room.
✟38,939.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
You are treating Evolution as if it is a drive to a specific goal. Humans have filled the niche for highly developed intelect. The expectation is we would squash any competitor. (One could argue this in fact did happen in past).
No, I was really just trying to play devil's advocate in the thread.

You actually answered my question in the bold part.

As previous posters indicated, I have a problem at looking at things on human terms. (Thanks all.)
 
Upvote 0

WretchedMan

Ambassador for Jesus Christ
Apr 1, 2010
264
10
Arkansas, USA
✟22,946.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What are your compelling arguments against naturalism? It doesn't seem like you even accept science. Science operates under the assumption of naturalism and it works wonderfully well.

They are numerous, involved, and really not on topic for this thread.

I don't reject science at all.

Not every scientist operates under an assumption of naturalism and they are making interesting discoveries as a result. Naturalism is not needed to do good science and it is my observation that it has been detrimental in many ways.
 
Upvote 0

WretchedMan

Ambassador for Jesus Christ
Apr 1, 2010
264
10
Arkansas, USA
✟22,946.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The mechanism that created the differences between horses and zebras and donkeys is the same mechanism that created the differences between horses and trees and sparrows and whales. The only difference is a matter of degree. To claim that "micro-evolution" can't lead to "macro-evolution" is like saying that no one can walk a mile because the largest step that a person can take is a few feet at most. great distances can be traveresed by the simple act of taking many little steps, and likewise, great changes in organisms can come about by lots of little changes over many generations.

I understand that this is what is assumed, but there is no evidence to support the assumption.

To claim the mechanism that gets us variety among equines, canines, finches, fruit flies, etc. can get us from bacteria to all the various lifeforms that have existed is pure philosophical assumption. To play off of your analogy, it's like saying since you can walk from California to Maine you can walk from Earth to Mars if you're just given enough time. It is never going to happen naturally.

First, are youn saying that science has no explanation, or that science will never have an explanation. There's a difference between the unexplained and the unexplainable.

It has no naturalistic explanation now, and my money is on it never will.

Secondly, I fear you are using your conclusion to support your premise.

Funny, this is precisely what Naturalism does.

That is because it is based on evidence.

Based on speculation and evidence interpreted through a naturalistic paradigm.

But, if you are right and evolution does not occur, tbhen the claims evolution makes must be wrong. Hence, the world that evolution predicts must be different to the world we see. A possible answer would be, "If evolution were true, we would see some mechanism by which trsaits are transfered from parent to child" or "There would be some explanation why only certain traits are passed on, and never other traits".

If by 'evolution' you mean universal common descent rooted in Naturalism, then yes, I claim it does not occur.

In reality, you aren't talking about 'predictions', you are talking about 'retrodictions' which seek to explain why the world is as we observe it.

These concepts weren't developed by people locked in a basement their whole life with no access to the world around them. This trying to put the clues together to determine the past and you start with the assumptions of Naturalism and they shade everything you see and hypothesize.

Given that the genetic material required for conceiving a baby would, in this case, be transfered via the mouth, then the reproductive organs would be located in the upper body. thus, we would see differences in babies in that they would not be born with their genitals between their legs.

It's called an analogy. I didn't say, "it's like saying if our genitals were in our mouth, what would you expect to be different?".

Given the many arguments in support of evolution, could you explain why you dismiss them? And what evidence do you have supporting Theism?

If by evolution you mean change within types of animals over successive generation resulting in limited variety, such as wolf to dog or the equine ancestor to horses, zebras, and donkeys, I don't dismiss those.

If, instead, you are referring to universal common descent, I reject them because they are pure naturalistic speculation not at all rooted in scientific observation.

Some of the evidence in support of theism are absolute morality, reason, evidence of design in nano-technology within cells, genetic code, avian lung, human hands, life, and prophecy, to name a few.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.