If Evolution is true what is purpose of life?

JohnR7 said:

I do not claim that evolution is a bush, evolutionists claim it is a bush.


Do a study on horse evolution. You will see that they use to believe it took place in a straight line and that theory has now been falsified. The interesting thing is that people come on here all the time and present the old falsified theory of horse evolution, even though that theory is no longer endorsed by evolutionits.

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Again, you are missing the point. There was no change in evolutionary theory here. There was a refinement of specific evolutionary phylogenies. As we learn more, our models improve. When there were only a few transitional horse fossils, not much of a tree could be drawn, even though the transitionas themselves were plainly obvious. As more data was collected, the phylogeny improved, and more branches were added.

JohnR7 said:

Just because I am not that good at explaining things does not mean I make it up as I go along. I did study a few things in Bible collage before they threw me out.

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Well, at least you went to collage.

Ondoher said:

Again, you are missing the point. There was no change in evolutionary theory here. There was a refinement of specific evolutionary phylogenies. As we learn more, our models improve. When there were only a few transitional horse fossils, not much of a tree could be drawn, even though the transitionas themselves were plainly obvious. As more data was collected, the phylogeny improved, and more branches were added.

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Johns point was that the horse series showed that evolution WAS NOT the mechanism as taught in school..before there was a simple progression of the size and toe development..but when the fossil record showed that the fossils ofsmall horses were younger than the bigger horses or that they existed within the same time period, then evolution had to come up with a new spin.as many people know the spin that evos have done to make it a bush is nothing more than what if to explain the current state or lack of state in the fossil record..Re darwin believed that his theory would be supported by the fossil record as he predicted..he believed that a line continuum of development could be traced given enough time..so far it has not

napajohn said:

Johns point was that the horse series showed that evolution WAS NOT the mechanism as taught in school..before there was a simple progression of the size and toe development..but when the fossil record showed that the fossils ofsmall horses were younger than the bigger horses or that they existed within the same time period, then evolution had to come up with a new spin.as many people know the spin that evos have done to make it a bush is nothing more than what if to explain the current state or lack of state in the fossil record..Re darwin believed that his theory would be supported by the fossil record as he predicted..he believed that a line continuum of development could be traced given enough time..so far it has not

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Balderdash. The transitions still exist, all that has happened is the phylogenies have been refined as new data was acquired.

How do creationists explain these horse transitionals?

Gidday icebreaker,

As an atheist, I found your post both interesting and provocative. Hence, a reply from me.

Icebreaker:- If evolution is true then I am here by chance and not made for any specific reason besides mabye to contiue my species.

Theistic evolutionists would disagree strongly with this.


Icebreaker:- If it is true then I should be fearful of death

To an extent this is true. However, I suspect you may be confusing the process of death with death itself.

I hope my death will be painless – e.g. that I die in bed, in my sleep. However for a great many people, death appears to be an extremely uncomfortable thing.

Do you not fear this? I am afraid of pain but you are not?

As for being dead? I do not think I am afraid of it so much as “p**d off”. Life can be terribly mundane and at times things can be problematical. At other times life it is glorious. It is during those times of joy that the notion of death is really annoying. But I was kind of dead before I was conceived and I do not remember being terribly worried then.

And you should be “fearful of death” yourself if you turn out to be worshipping the wrong god – and the real one has a nasty temper.

Icebreaker:- beceause it is the end but then again I should careless because this life doesnt mean anything anyway.

Why should I be careless? This life is the only one I have so why spoil it for myself and those who come after?

And who said that life has no meaning?

You appear to be making great leaps of faith as to what my life must be like. May I respond in kind – butin a kind of serious jest?

Is the purpose of your life to worship your god for eternity? That may give your life some meaning, but to me things could soon get pretty dull – unless of course your god removes your senses and turns you into some kind of “worship robot.”

icebreaker:- I am born put into school and then I am told if I want a decent living then I must go to college so that I can work at a good job. After all my long hours of hard work and studying I eventually die with all the pointless things that I did but in the end had no meaning.

If these things were pointless, then why would we be doing them? Why does the notion of an eternity of “life” provide an apparently meaningless life with meaning? How does it do this? Whether life is for 10 years or 20,000,000 years, how does the 20,000,000 years give it meaning that the 10 years does not?

Equally they could be seen to be pointless from your view point (me making big assumptions again.).

I mean, if this life is a mere 70 years in an eternity of worshipping your god, then why go to school or get a job anyway? What do they have to do with worshipping your god?

And if you have meaning in your life because God gives it to you then do you always go through life waiting for someone to tell you what to do – so that you can get meaning? Most of my life is governed by others I will admit. However, I often get up in the mornings and think “Today I will do such and such because I would like to achieve an outcome.” Therefore I have purpose and meaning. It would appear that you cannot do this. You must wait for someone to tell you what to do. Then you have purpose.

icebreaker:- If I was an evolution scientiest and spent all my time trying to prove evolution then I would be trying to let others know that there is no reason for them to be here and that there life means nothing its just an accident or by chance.

The problem is that no evolutionist sees things this way. Not even atheistic evolutionists.

icebreaker:- Although salmon have a big purpose in the ecosystem etc.. would they do this if they could understand what they were doing? They migrate back up stream to where they were born and reproduce and then eventially die. Not much of a life if you ask me.

The purpose of a salmon sounds little different to the purpose of a human designed by a creator to worship that creator for eternity – if you ask me. And clearly you show that even a “pointless” life, can have purpose.

icebreaker:- If evolution is true why do we care about others. Why do we spend so much money through government etc.. to help people …

It allows us to live in communities with other humans. It is what we do as a species to survive.

Icebreaker:- …when in the end they really dont mean anything except hurt the enviroment etc...

Many believers and not believers do harm the environment. But many do not. Government (and helping people) is a bit more complex that dishing money out to people who are “just going to harm the environment”. If it were this simple then we would not help people and Governments would not dish out money.

Are you really suggesting that Governments hand out money and people just harm the environment – and this is the equation of life from an evolutionist’s point of view?

Icebreaker:- Why should I care about the people around me since we are here by chance and I really should only care about myself but then why do I even care about myself since it doesnt mean anything?

Seems to me that, if we are a fluke and this is all there is then we really must care. Life really is so fragile and fluky. This is all there is. That is why we must care.

icebreaker:- With Christianity atleast I have hope for what happens to me after death.

Yes but I am alive now. I am not interested in “after death”. After death I do not exist – but life still does. That is why I should care.

Icebreaker:-I can experience great love and happiness helping others(yes even if you believe evolutionists can experience this) and understand that I was created for a specific purpose and by a God that greatly loves me.

Yes and I also experience that which you do and for the same reasons. However I understand that I was born for no purpose other than to perpetuate the species. Joy, love, happiness, sadness, bitterness, fear, purposelessness, hate – these are all emotions I feel, which appear to be a part of me as a human. Purpose and meaning appear to be constructs I build with which I make sense of my own life. The emotions I feel appear to be an important part of how I construct meaning and purpose.

I know may sad, very sad Christians. And I know of some who have committed suicide.

So having a sense of divinely inspired purpose and meaning appears to offer no guarantee for a successful life.

And I would be wary of the purpose your god has assigned for you.

Icebreaker:- My life has great meaning.

Good for you.

Icebreaker:- I dont have to fear what happens to me when I die.

I don’t really either. It is just a very, very, very annoying fact of life. However, if I get to be 100 and all my friends are dead, maybe death would not be so annoying then. I have heard of some elderly people who are “just waiting to die”. All their friends are dead, the world has moved on and they do not understand it, they are feeble etc.

I do fear death itself though.

I wonder if you and I were both dangling over the edge of a cliff, whether you would shout, scream and sweat as much as I would. I suspect so. On that suspicion, I think you also fear death.

icebreaker:- I believe with all my heart that God is real but lets say for some reason none of it is real then I die just like the rest of the world and thats it.

No that is not all there is to it. That is it for me. But life exists beyond me and how I might influence – even a teeny-weeny bit – what comes after, is terribly important.


icebreaker:- Besides what is the purpose of life as an evolutionist?

To attempt to explain to YECs who wish to argue their beliefs with the mainstream, that their view of reality is probably nonsense. To be a good father to my children. To be a good grand-father to my grandchildren. When I have time – to enjoy my life. To help others out when they need help and ask for it – that is to help others with life. To interact with my fellow creatures such that when I need help, it is there. To lead a good life and one that was worth living. Etc.

Icebreaker:- How have all the religions come along…

That is a question for psychology and anthropology.

Icebreaker:- …doesnt that show that something must have happened in the past or were they all just trying to figure out why they were here and that sounded the best? from an evolutionist understanding??

So are you arguing that all other religions are “true” or only yours? If “something did happen in the past”, then maybe your religion is “false” and all your meaning and purpose is to no avail because you worship the wrong god.

icebreaker:- Thanks

No problems.

I have been a bit sarcastic and flippant here. My apologies, but I stopped by and noticed your post and decided on a quick reply.

As an atheist I am not hostile to religion so don’t take anything I say too much to heart.

Regards, Roland

Ondoher said:

Balderdash. The transitions still exist, all that has happened is the phylogenies have been refined as new data was acquired.

How do creationists explain these horse transitionals?

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here you go
http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-b/btg-063b.htm

napajohn said:

Johns point was that the horse series showed that evolution WAS NOT the mechanism as taught in school..

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And John's point - as are so many of John's points - was wrong.

napajohn said:

here you go
http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-b/btg-063b.htm

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It is instructive to compare the ICR treatment of horse evolution above to the one provided by TalkOrigins, below:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses/horse_evol.html

The ICR product contains no evidence from articles published in peer-reviewed science journals, while the TO essay references are numerous.

I haven't read any of the posts in this thread and am only going by the title of it, so apologies if this has been said.

"If Evolution is true, what is the meaning of life?" Exactly the same as if it wasn't true. Evolution is just another tool of God in creation. It does not diminish our existance. Because evolution does not equal atheism. Surely you don't want me to use the epilepsy-inducing sign???

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napajohn said:

here you go




http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-b/btg-063b.htm

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Let me quote the sole paragraph in that article that offers an alternate explanation:This leaves a little something to be desired here. Which taxa belong to which "kind?" Why do these created kinds share so many traits and seem to fit neatly in a nested hierarchy? If they were individually created kinds, why would there be any seeming relationship?



Fortunately for creationists, Morris left out the details about which taxa belong to these elusive "kinds." Now there is no way to test his claim that there are no transitionals.

Well, except in the generic sense that they all fit neatly into a phylogeny:


From here: http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/vertpaleo/fhc/Stratmap1.htm

icebreaker said:

I feel that atheistic evolutionists have it very easy. You just life your life the way you want with no eternal consequences. Not that life itself is easy but you just have less worries as far as religion goes.

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I suppose we do have it easier if the God you believe in makes your eternal salvation contingent upon your ability to also believe in a thrice-translated fairy tale written for virtual scientific illiterates.

icebreaker said:

I feel that atheistic evolutionists have it very easy. You just life your life the way you want with no eternal consequences. Not that life itself is easy but you just have less worries as far as religion goes.

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In some ways it is easier than being religious. I have been down both paths, so I can draw some comparisons. It is easier in that I don't have to spend two hours out of every Sunday getting ready for, attending, and returning from Church. I don't have to follow pointless rituals like not eating meat on Fridays during Lent. I don't have to offend my intellect and sense of independence by having certain beliefs forced upon me by Church dogma, such as papal infalability or the virgin birth. And best of all, I am not saddled with the guilt and threat of eternal hellfire if I violate some obscure Church rule that happened to carry with it the label of "mortal sin."

In other ways, it is harder. I used to tithe directly to the Church and not worry about what charitieis to donate to. I just assumed the Church itself was a worthy charity and they would use the money wisely in terms of helping the poor and needy. The Catholic Church certainly does that for the most part, but now I have to decide for myself which charities to give to (I like Habitat for Humanity and the American Cancer Society a lot). I also have to think for myself on thorny issues like abortion. Instead of just blindly accepting dogma and leaving it at that, I have to form my own conclusion.

And being atheist can be socially problematic, especially in the deep south of the USA. A lot of people literally treat you like you have a disease once they find out you're atheist. One woman in my office heard I was an atheist. When the office was taking up a collection for something, she inquired whether "you people do charitable things." And family members can be annoying about it, too.

And then there is the sense to a small degree of being a foreigner in a strange land, of being atheist in a very religious country. Christian complaints about secularization aside, the USA is a very religious country, especially here in the deep south. Churches, church signs, Christian radio and tv, door-to-door evangelists permeate this country. These are constant reminders to an atheist that he is different from most everyone else.

In a lot of ways, it would be much, much easier just to go with the flow simply to fit in. But I can speak for most atheists when I say that would be unthinkably hypocritical for us, the same way it would be for a Christian living in Saudi Arabia converting to Islam just to fit in.

icebreaker said:

Does a Christian that believes that God used evolution to create the world go to hell or does it effect his salvation? I have no idea.

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Of course not. The only way to God is through Jesus. Not through a disbelief of Evolution. Christ is the key to Christianity. Belief in Christ is the fundamental aspect of slavation.

icebreaker said:

I dont see it showing us that he created one thing and everything came from it so I have a hard time leading others to see it that way. Please explain your position on the idea that God used evolution as a tool

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I'm going to copy and paste a previous I've given to this issue:

"The first and foremost thing about being a Christian is believing that Jesus, the Son of God, died on the cross to pay the debt of sin so that we may come into a relationship with God again. This was an act of Love for mankind. That is the core belief that qualifies you as a Christian. Acknowledging God and His love and the sacrifice Jesus made. This, beyond all else qualifies you as a Christian. And I totally accept that this is a matter of faith. It is a matter of the heart as well as the brain whether you accept that.

Regarding reconciling the Bible with science, I think that the most important thing is remembering this: the Bible is not and should not be used as a science text book. The Bible is a guide to becoming closer in your relationship with God. That is what is forgotten often. I'll copy an answer I gave previously when asked about how I view creation, and this is a similar view to most Christians, especially outside the US.

h2whoa said:

Obviously, given that I'm a Christian I accpet God as the Creator of the Universe and all that jazz. However, I do not take a literal stance on Genesis or the Flood.

I believe that when God created the Universe He created the laws of nature and physics that we see. Laws are written by a legislator, in this case God. AS for the actual mechanism that God used to create the first life form, I honestly don't know... yet . However, I concur with the generally accepted view of very simple life gradually evolving over the 4.3 billion years that it's had the chance on this planet. I stress billion, because I think that it is very easy to not let the actual impact of that sheer amount of time sink in.

I believe that when the Bible says that man was made in His image, it is refering to spiritual aspects. I don't believe in a literal Adam and Eve. The eating of the fruit represents man's choice to turn away from God. As I've said in many other threads, I believe that God told the story of Genesis as a metaphor to get across two basic points:

1) He created everything. The "how's" of Creation would just have left people confused and was not important to the Message
2) Humans have a spirit that is dead because of the things we choose to do that separate us from God.

And Genesis works very well in getting these two points across without each verse of each chapter being the size of textbooks in themselves.

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"

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GoSeminoles! said:

And best of all, I am not saddled with the guilt and threat of eternal hellfire if I violate some obscure Church rule that happened to carry with it the label of "mortal sin."

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Christians don't have that problem. They don't have to be afraid of going to hell because they know that they have already now everlasting life that will never end. And btw, it doesn't make anyone a Christian if he belongs to a certain church or if he performs certain deeds. Christianity is all about relationship between man and God. It's not rules and regulations but it's life by grace, salvation to those who wouldn't deserve to be saved.

icebreaker said:

I am not one to state facts proving creationism or evolution but I started to think about it on my level.

If evolution is true then I am here by chance and not made for any specific reason besides mabye to contiue my species. If it is true then I should be fearful of death beceause it is the end but then again I should careless because this life doesnt mean anything anyway.

I am born put into school and then I am told if I want a decent living then I must go to college so that I can work at a good job. After all my long hours of hard work and studying I eventually die with all the pointless things that I did but in the end had no meaning.

If I was an evolution scientiest and spent all my time trying to prove evolution then I would be trying to let others know that there is no reason for them to be here and that there life means nothing its just an accident or by chance.

Although salmon have a big purpose in the ecosystem etc.. would they do this if they could understand what they were doing? They migrate back up stream
to where they were born and reproduce and then eventially die. Not much of a life if you ask me.

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I am here because my parents loved each other very much and, as a product of that love, wanted to create children whom they could love unconditionally and who would bring delight to themselves, their parents and siblings. The primary purpose of my life is two fold: to live as best a life as I can and to do the same as my parents, bear children whom I, and they, adore. These two things are forced on us by evolutionary biology, by giving us intense emotional needs to fulfill them. Without these two purposes, life would eventually cease to exist. Living a great life and having children are extremely meaningful to me, and to those who love me. There is nothing pointless about it.

icebreaker said:

If evolution is true why do we care about others. Why do we spend so much money through government etc.. to help people when in the end they really dont mean anything except hurt the enviroment etc... Why should I care about the people around me since we are here by chance and I really should only care about myself but then why do I even care about myself since it doesnt mean anything?

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We evolved as highly social animals. Social animals require being with others of their kind in order to have the best chance of survival. In order to bind humans together, we have genetically developed many emotions and traits, but the one relevant to this discussion is empathy. To empathize with someone means to have the ability to understand how they are feeling and for that understanding to effect us emotionally. So that when I see another father who is poor and is struggling to feed his children, I can understand and feel his pain. By helping him, I have made him happier and subsequently made myself happier. Helping others in need makes my life happier and therefore better.

icebreaker said:

With Christianity atleast I have hope for what happens to me after death. I can experience great love and happiness helping others(yes even if you believe evolutionists can experience this) and understand that I was created for a specific purpose and by a God that greatly loves me. My life has great meaning. I dont have to fear what happens to me when I die.

I believe with all my heart that God is real but lets say for some reason none of it is real then I die just like the rest of the world and thats it.

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My understanding of christianity is that you believe your purpose is to go to Heaven and glorify God (correct me if I'm wrong). Ummm, what's so meaningful about that?

icebreaker said:

Besides what is the purpose of life as an evolutionist? How have all the religions come along doesnt that show that something must have happened in the past or were they all just trying to figure out why they were here and that sounded the best? from an evolutionist understanding??

Thanks

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I think religions came along as a way of understanding the world when there was very little knowledge of it. People first saw spirits in other life forms, the sun, the wind, the rain, the forests. It gave them something to ask for help and mercy. Over time, these spirits "evolved" into gods, with histories and stories. Myths developed about the gods (or God) and about human history. These myths were endlessly discussed and embellished upon (as humans tend to do). Eventually, these myths were written down, and believed as true by human leaders, who required their followers to also believe them. They were taught as truth by parents to their children who would grow up believing them with all their heart. And here we are today...

reconciliation said:

Christians don't have that problem. They don't have to be afraid of going to hell because they know that they have already now everlasting life that will never end.

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Some Christians don't agree. Some seem to think their individual salvations are linked to whether or not homosexuals in this country are allowed to marry each other.

And btw, it doesn't make anyone a Christian if he belongs to a certain church or if he performs certain deeds. Christianity is all about relationship between man and God. It's not rules and regulations but it's life by grace, salvation to those who wouldn't deserve to be saved.

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Some Christians don't agree. Some think the Church-oriented minutiae is at least as important as communing with God.

Don't get me wrong, your version of Christianity sounds better to me. It's just that it doesn't seem to sound better to all Christians.