If evolution is not valid science, somebody should tell the scientists.

[jewel77]

This is a credible source, if you think it's not exlplain why

Let me get this straight, are you saying this article is all lies?

 

[Gwenyfur]

anything that comes from a Christian or Biblical site is considered unscientific because it's not written or published by pure "scientists" ... no matter the degree the writers may hold...

 

[Dannager]

This is a credible source, if you think it's not exlplain why

It isn't credible because the stated purpose of the organization sponsoring the article is to oppose evolutionary theory because it is in violation of their standard of Biblical literalism. There is a difference between having a stated purpose of examining scientific validity (the scientific community) and directly opposing a scientific theory based on religious conviction (the religious community). One is based on principle (the natural world should be examined), the other is based on bias (the natural world should be consistent with my beliefs).

Furthermore, the article is not subject to peer review by the scientific community at large and thus were there any flaws with the data or conclusions drawn from them they cannot be exposed.

 

[Dannager]

Let me get this straight, are you saying this article is all lies?

Oh, I'm sure it's got a few valid sentences here and there.

 

[Dannager]

anything that comes from a Christian or Biblical site is considered unscientific because it's not written or published by pure "scientists" ... no matter the degree the writers may hold...

Any article that is espoused as "scientific" that doesn't bother to participate in the peer review process that the scientific community ascribes to is suspect. If an article were to be published in both a scientific peer-review journal and a Christian or Biblical site there would be no problem. It is when only the latter occurs that we wonder at why they chose not to publish for peer-review.

 

[jewel77]

I came on this forum stating my beliefs and was not prepared for the nastiness shown by certain members in this forum all because i hold a different view from theirs - Is this really a Christian forum???

I realize it doesn't matter to you people how credible the source is, if it doesn't agree with you're evolutionary theories you pull it to pieces and throw it out.

I am getting out of here, I find the atmosphere here very depressive.

 

[artybloke]

I realize it doesn't matter to you people how credible the source is

It does matter, unfortunately, so far, you have singularly failed to provide a "credible" source. Nor does it seem you're particularly interested in finding one.

 

[Dannager]

I came on this forum stating my beliefs and was not prepared for the nastiness shown by certain members in this forum all because i hold a different view from theirs - Is this really a Christian forum???

This is a debate forum. If you are not prepared to have your views examined (and criticized) upon presenting them you should not be posting here in the first place. The Christian nature of this forum aside, this individual board is not intended primarily for fellowship posts. We have sub-forums for those purposes. I have witnessed no so-called "nastiness" directed towards you by anyone. If you feel that you have been mistreated you could always contact a moderator.

I realize it doesn't matter to you people how credible the source is, if it doesn't agree with you're evolutionary theories you pull it to pieces and throw it out.

This is not the case and I, and many others, do not appreciate you claiming it is. You accuse this forum of "nastiness" and then turn around and say something like this?

I am getting out of here, I find the atmosphere here very depressive.

I'm sorry that you came to this forum with the expectation that you would find the experience uplifting, given that you have refused attempts to provide you with honest information. I would find it depressive, too, if I came into a debate with a closed mind and had nothing but opposing views presented to me. I don't blame you for leaving.

I do blame you for being unwilling to listen.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Any article that is espoused as "scientific" that doesn't bother to participate in the peer review process that the scientific community ascribes to is suspect. If an article were to be published in both a scientific peer-review journal and a Christian or Biblical site there would be no problem. It is when only the latter occurs that we wonder at why they chose not to publish for peer-review.

and of course peer review is the only way that man's "truth" of man's theory can be validated. Given that as the "rule" then that invalidates Y'shua's claim that He is the truth.

We as Christians and Messianics are commanded to "test the spirits" and "discern the truth" measuring it by the word of G-d...

Peer review doesn't quite cut it when compared to that.

Remember young one, that just because something isn't "peer reviewed" doesn't make it's point any less valid...only less explored...

you're entirely too young to be so closed minded.

 

[Gwenyfur]

I came on this forum stating my beliefs and was not prepared for the nastiness shown by certain members in this forum all because i hold a different view from theirs - Is this really a Christian forum???

[/i]


This is a debate forum. If you are not prepared to have your views examined (and criticized) upon presenting them you should not be posting here in the first place. The Christian nature of this forum aside, this individual board is not intended primarily for fellowship posts. We have sub-forums for those purposes. I have witnessed no so-called "nastiness" directed towards you by anyone. If you feel that you have been mistreated you could always contact a moderator.

Where in the forum rules does it through out the Christian standards we are supposed to abide by when posting? It DOESN'T!

I realize it doesn't matter to you people how credible the source is, if it doesn't agree with you're evolutionary theories you pull it to pieces and throw it out

This is not the case and I, and many others, do not appreciate you claiming it is. You accuse this forum of "nastiness" and then turn around and say something like this?

It is the case with this forum, unless of course you ignore the posts that are less than kind...which you seem to be blind to...

I am getting out of here, I find the atmosphere here very depressive

I'm sorry that you came to this forum with the expectation that you would find the experience uplifting, given that you have refused attempts to provide you with honest information. I would find it depressive, too, if I came into a debate with a closed mind and had nothing but opposing views presented to me. I don't blame you for leaving.

I do blame you for being unwilling to listen.

You and the rest should be sorry for running off another person who only wished to converse and share her beliefs. Being ridiculed by fellow "christians" is depressing and hurtful. Such unkindness within the body...for shame...

While I don't care about how much you and the others belittle my beliefs and the stance I have on creation being of G-d and not of death, well...others are more sensitive...and yet they have every right to share the truth as you do to spread the lies of evolution and a reasonable expectation of kindness from their brethren in the L-rd.

Unwilling to listen? No, unwilling to swallow a lie hook and sinker would be more like it...Willing to stand for the Creator and Savior of her soul...not something you understand too well based on your posts here...

It's a shame you and others are more concerned with crushing other Christians instead of uplifting them, and maybe getting out of the habit of shredding people's ideas, research and beliefs simply because they don't add up to your own man made beliefs and theories might be something to consider.

The true shame of it is that the behavior on this forum does more to hinder the kingdom of the Father, than increase it...

We're to be a light in the darkness, and yet, the darkness dwells here, where "christians" tear each other to shreds...truly a way to further the kingdom and teach the Gospel...

 

[notto]

Anybody sell new irony meters? (or maybe it is a hypocracy meter I need).

 

[Gwenyfur]

it is not hypocrisy to call a spade a spade

nor is it irony to rebuke a wrong...it's very scriptural sorry if you missed that part of Timothy, Acts, Corinthians, Phillipians and Ephesians in your Bible readings or are unable to recall them to your memory...

 

[notto]

it is not hypocrisy to call a spade a spade

nor is it irony to rebuke a wrong...it's very scriptural sorry if you missed that part of Timothy, Acts, Corinthians, Phillipians and Ephesians in your Bible readings or are unable to recall them to your memory...

So you shouldn't have a problem when less than trustworthy or knowledgeable sources on science and evolution are used and called out for being less than trustworty or knowledgeable.

Your accusations against your fellow Christians are exactly what you are railing against. That is hypocracy plain and simple.

You seem to be willing to 'crush' your fellow Christians with claims that somehow because they accept science and evolution that they are less Christian than you. How is that uplifting to them? Where is the reasonable expectation of kindness in that?

You expect kindness yet you feel free to 'call a spade a spade'. You should practice what you preach when you are that spade.

 

[Gwenyfur]

You seem to be willing to 'crush' your fellow Christians with claims that somehow because they accept science and evolution that they are less Christian than you. How is that uplifting to them? Where is the reasonable expectation of kindness in that?

I don't know where you got that from what I typed, but you're dead wrong in your interpretation of it.

It is possible to deliver that "evidence of evolution" in a manner that is not attacking, vindictive or spiteful...a rarity on this forum. Civilized, courteous conversation is possible

 

[notto]

I don't know where you got that from what I typed, but you're dead wrong in your interpretation of it.

Unwilling to listen? No, unwilling to swallow a lie hook and sinker would be more like it...Willing to stand for the Creator and Savior of her soul...not something you understand too well based on your posts here...

It's a shame you and others are more concerned with crushing other Christians instead of uplifting them, and maybe getting out of the habit of shredding people's ideas, research and beliefs simply because they don't add up to your own man made beliefs and theories might be something to consider.

You seem to be implying that Christians who accept evolution are not standing up for the Creator and Savior as well as others - that would be an attack and certainly doesn't follow the kindness you wish others had for you.

Then you go on and claim that those who point out the bad information pushed by Creationists related to science are somehow intending on crushing Christians instead of uplifting them. I guess the same could be said of you when you accuse other Christians of not standing up for the Savior as an emotional appeal.

You go on to claim that you know why the debate is engaged in and I can tell you for certain that I am one Christian who does not engage in the debate for the reason you give.

You are crushing me and my beliefs and accusing me of things that I and the other Christians on this board are not guilty of. Pointing out the bad science of YEC is not an attack on the Christian beliefs of the YEC yet it seems at every turn, you want to call the Christian beliefs of those who accept evolution into question and seem to claim that the way the debate is engaged in is unChristian yet I've seen you result to emotional appeals that insult the Christians you are debating.

Why don't you try to uplift me instead of tearing me down?

 

[Gwenyfur]

You seem to be implying that Christians who accept evolution are not standing up for the Creator and Savior as well as others - that would be an attack and certainly doesn't follow the kindness you wish others had for you.

Then you go on and claim that those who point out the bad information pushed by Creationists related to science are somehow intending on crushing Christians instead of uplifting them. I guess the same could be said of you when you accuse other Christians of not standing up for the Savior as an emotional appeal.

You go on to claim that you know why the debate is engaged in and I can tell you for certain that I am one Christian who does not engage in the debate for the reason you give.

You are crushing me and my beliefs and accusing me of things that I and the other Christians on this board are not guilty of. Pointing out the bad science of YEC is not an attack on the Christian beliefs of the YEC yet it seems at every turn, you want to call the Christian beliefs of those who accept evolution into question.

Why don't you try to uplift me instead of tearing me down?

The first paragraph you quoted was not pointed towards you personally, it was pointed to the person I was directly replying to...

If you don't engage in debate then what are you doing now aside from debating me?

Uplift you? I don't know where you are in order to uplift you...other than to say

G-d bless you and keep you as you travel your path today.

Shalom

 

[notto]

The first paragraph you quoted was not pointed towards you personally, it was pointed to the person I was directly replying to...

And it wasn't very uplifting. Hypocracy.

 

[Dannager]

and of course peer review is the only way that man's "truth" of man's theory can be validated.

Peer review doesn't seek to validate what you call truth. Peer review seeks to, to the best of the ability of the reviewers, discard that which is shown to be false and verify that which can be verified by the peer reviewers. It is as strong as the process allows but it is far stronger than any sort of publication method that lacks a peer review process.

Given that as the "rule" then that invalidates Y'shua's claim that He is the truth.

That isn't the rule. Please familiarize yourself with the peer review process, the reasons it exists and the way it works before fallaciously criticizing it.

We as Christians and Messianics are commanded to "test the spirits" and "discern the truth" measuring it by the word of G-d...

And I firmly believe, as do most others, that God's will is evident in the world around us. I cannot accept that contradictory evidence exists - there is a single truth and it lies with God, in both evident world and scripture. You only accept one half of that: scripture. With that mindset no matter the evidence presented you, you will continue to believe in your interpretation of scripture based on scripture, a self-perpetuating cycle of willful ignorance. Stop that cycle, Gwenyfur.

Peer review doesn't quite cut it when compared to that.

Peer review isn't designed to compete with God. It is designed to compete with misconceptions. God isn't a misconception. Young earth creationism is.

Remember young one, that just because something isn't "peer reviewed" doesn't make it's point any less valid...only less explored...

That doesn't change the fact that a peer-reviewed discovery can be said to be valid with a far greater degree of certainty than something that has not been peer-reviewed.

you're entirely too young to be so closed minded.

I will not tolerate jabs based on age, Gwenyfur. While you may be older, I firmly believe that I have spent more time, effort and dedication on this particular subject than you have. Furthermore, I will not tolerate you conflating my age with close-mindedness. I firmly believe that my actions on this board, including my willingness to openly apologize to you when I made a rash assumption a week ago, demonstrate emotional and mental maturity easily at the same level as your own. In addition, I firmly believe that the level of patience, tolerance and acceptance that I have exhibited during m stay on this board are also evidence of maturity exceeding that of many adults I have known.

I let the issue slide last time we talked, but I will not this time. Age will not be a bearing for your consideration on my standpoint, especially when there is no cause to believe age is a factor. It will not sway me, nor should it. If you wish to persuade me with anything, ever, stick to rational argument.

 

[Gwenyfur]

And it wasn't very uplifting. Hypocracy.

it wasn't intended to be an uplift, it was intended to be a rebuke for that person...something very biblical...

as for the blessing for you being hypocrisy...well...that's on you it was sincere...

 

[Gwenyfur]

Peer review doesn't seek to validate what you call truth. Peer review seeks to, to the best of the ability of the reviewers, discard that which is shown to be false and verify that which can be verified by the peer reviewers. It is as strong as the process allows but it is far stronger than any sort of publication method that lacks a peer review process.

That isn't the rule. Please familiarize yourself with the peer review process, the reasons it exists and the way it works before fallaciously criticizing it.

And I firmly believe, as do most others, that God's will is evident in the world around us. I cannot accept that contradictory evidence exists - there is a single truth and it lies with God, in both evident world and scripture. You only accept one half of that: scripture. With that mindset no matter the evidence presented you, you will continue to believe in your interpretation of scripture based on scripture, a self-perpetuating cycle of willful ignorance. Stop that cycle, Gwenyfur.

Peer review isn't designed to compete with God. It is designed to compete with misconceptions. God isn't a misconception. Young earth creationism is.

That doesn't change the fact that a peer-reviewed discovery can be said to be valid with a far greater degree of certainty than something that has not been peer-reviewed.

I will not tolerate jabs based on age, Gwenyfur. While you may be older, I firmly believe that I have spent more time, effort and dedication on this particular subject than you have. Furthermore, I will not tolerate you conflating my age with close-mindedness. I firmly believe that my actions on this board, including my willingness to openly apologize to you when I made a rash assumption a week ago, demonstrate emotional and mental maturity easily at the same level as your own. In addition, I firmly believe that the level of patience, tolerance and acceptance that I have exhibited during m stay on this board are also evidence of maturity exceeding that of many adults I have known.

I let the issue slide last time we talked, but I will not this time. Age will not be a bearing for your consideration on my standpoint, especially when there is no cause to believe age is a factor. It will not sway me, nor should it. If you wish to persuade me with anything, ever, stick to rational argument.

no problem Dannager

I am sorry for offending you.