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If evolution is not valid science, somebody should tell the scientists.

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KerrMetric

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Gwenyfur,

Hovind doesn't pass muster with most Creationist groups never mind people like me. When you evade taxes, pay for a PhD from a basement business and spurt out the crank material he does very few adults take you seriously.
 
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Romanseight2005

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KerrMetric said:
A word of advice. Those sites aren't going to pass muster on here. drdino is just bizarre by the way. I think most of us regulars on here have probably read most if not every page on AIG.

Why is that? There are creation scientists out there. If they aren't convinced that evolution is feasible, why is it not enough for you? Can you honestly say you can prove evolution?

Rom 1:19-20

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse :
KJV

These passages clearly tell us that God has made it clear to everyone that He has created the world. If you believe that God started the big bang, then created through evolution, then think about this.
Death is not spoken of in scripture until sin entered the picture. Scripturally, sin causes death. According to evolution, death causes life. The two don't go together. So, you either believe God, or you don't. Your argument is not with me, or any other young earth creationists, but with God. So take it up with Him if you have a problem with it.:scratch:
 
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Gwenyfur

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KerrMetric said:
Gwenyfur,

Hovind doesn't pass muster with most Creationist groups never mind people like me. When you evade taxes, pay for a PhD from a basement business and spurt out the crank material he does very few adults take you seriously.
His PhD came from Patriot University *before* it was purchased as a shop/pay/here university and dismantled....

How can you evade taxes when you are tax exempt...He may have been charged, but never convicted ;)

His "crank" material has a stronger foundation than the entire collection of "evidence" for evolution...
Matthew5:25-27 KJV said:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
I've said it before, I'll say it again...

I'll put my faith in the Living G-d of Israel, and when the time comes I won't be left stammering excuses about believing His word to be "allegorical" or "mythical", I will be able to say Yes, L-rd, Thy words are true!
 
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rmwilliamsll

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livingword26 said:
What do YECists or Sabbatarians have to do with weather or not we translate this part of Genesis literally or not. What does the scientific communities speculation of the age of the earth have to do with weather or not we believe in a 7 day creation or not. There is much science out there that gives altenate points of view on the age of the earth, not that this matters to me. I believe the bible regardless.

Sabbatarians have to do with whether or not we translate this part of Genesis literally or not.

i took the liberty of correcting your spelling. it really bugged me *Grin*

it matters because a constantly literal, historical reading of Genesis 1 strongly supports a Sabbatarian position. in fact, the role of the Sabbath in Gen1 is far, far more important than any information about the scientific order you can gain from it.

my big point, is that YECism is a social-religious phenomena, it is not a consistent hermenetical technique or even a school of Biblical interpretation. if it were the two issues: age of the earth, and Sabbath would be as tightly bound in the YECist community as it is in the SDA church which is a consistent hermeneutical community that does take the GEn1 to be very literal .....

my point is that you are YEC and not Sabbatarian which proves that you are not really reading Gen1 literally, but are reading GEn1 as a modern scientific document. the literal label is a red herring.


....
 
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Gwenyfur said:
Hovind and Ham don't pass the mustard here because they dont' agree with TE's
Yeah, not so fair of you to accuse TEs of a priori reasoning. I don't see the purpose in comparing theistic evolutionists and young earth creationists in this regard, especially when you have quite flatly accused TEs of "ignoring God's word".

Be prepared for every word you type to be taken out of context, every source to be denounced as "unscientific"
Dismissal of material occurs on an individual basis. I do not believe that many, or even most, TEs are flippant. They cannot afford to be if they are genuinely interested in fields dealing with genetics and evolution, which at heart are very technical.

and every truth... even the word of G-d to be called allegory or fiction or mythical...
I do not know many TEs who explicitly say that Adam and Eve were not real, historical people. Let's remember that "allegory" doesn't necessarily mean "untrue".
 
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KerrMetric

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Romanseight2005 said:
Why is that? There are creation scientists out there. If they aren't convinced that evolution is feasible, why is it not enough for you? Can you honestly say you can prove evolution?

To be honest, as far as I am concerned they are not scientists. Most of them are not qualified in the areas they talk about or they haven't worked in the area since they were students. They don;t research in the areas and they don't publish in the areas. In other words they are not qualified.

Evolution is an observed fact. The mechanism for the process is what the theory is about. A scientific theory can technically never be proven, be it gravity, quantum chromodynamics or superconductivity.
 
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Gwenyfur

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KerrMetric said:
To be honest, as far as I am concerned they are not scientists. Most of them are not qualified in the areas they talk about or they haven't worked in the area since they were students. They don;t research in the areas and they don't publish in the areas. In other words they are not qualified.

Evolution is an observed fact. The mechanism for the process is what the theory is about. A scientific theory can technically never be proven, be it gravity, quantum chromodynamics or superconductivity.

Wow...it's a fact....

So...then why are chimpanzees and apes still having chimpanzees adn apes...why don't they make another human so we can "observe" and "test" it this time???
Hrmmm????
 
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Romanseight2005

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KerrMetric said:
Gwenyfur,

Hovind doesn't pass muster with most Creationist groups never mind people like me. When you evade taxes, pay for a PhD from a basement business and spurt out the crank material he does very few adults take you seriously.
Prove these accusations! The fact that he is so slandered may mean that he is hitting a nerve.
 
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KerrMetric

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Gwenyfur said:
His PhD came from Patriot University *before* it was purchased as a shop/pay/here university and dismantled....

It was a joke qualification from a joke school, period.

Hovinds fake qualifications said:
Education

In 1974 he received a bachelor's degree in religious education from the unaccredited school Midwestern Baptist College. Over a decade later, Hovind was awarded a masters's degree and doctorate in "Christian Education" from the unaccredited college (correspondence school) Patriot University (now Patriot Bible University) in 1988 and 1991 respectively.
Critics of Hovind have charged that Patriot Bible University is a diploma mill as it has unreasonably low graduation requirements, lack of sufficient faculty or educational standards, and a suspicious tuition scheme, among other issues. The college itself has claimed that it simply does not "choose" to be accredited by standard associations [10]. The school's current policies allow students to attain bachelor's degrees, master's degrees and even "Doctor of Ministry" degrees in months, rather than years, for less than $40 per month (the university offers a monthly fee, unlike most universities, which only charge per-credit fees[11]) While Hovind finished in 1991, as of 2004 Patriot Bible University is allowed to issue religious degrees, by the State of Colorado Higher Education Commission.
Unusually, Patriot Bible University will not send copies of Hovind's doctoral dissertation to anyone for review. Doctoral dissertations are normally published by the associated university and made available to the public, so that other students conducting research in similar areas may use the information provided by the dissertation as a reference. One copy is on file at the National Center for Science Education (NCSE) in Berkeley, CA. They will not send it either, due to copyright and distribution restrictions, but people may view it at their facility.
Various criticisms have been made of his dissertation, including charges of incompleteness, low academic quality, poor writing , poor spelling, and ungrammatical style. [12][13][14][15][16]. Barbara Forrest claims that Hovind's lack of scientific training makes it impossible to engage him on a professional level [17].
Hovind commonly uses the title Ph.D without specifying its area (Christian Education).Under Florida state law, Hovind can only use his title if he "clearly identifies the religious character of the educational program". However, since his official website is www.drdino.com, some believe he has not done so. Unlike most doctors, Hovind is listed in the phone book as "Dr."[18]
When questioned about his education and qualification, Hovind typically claims that the arguments are ad hominem attacks. The institution where he gained his degree has made similar comments [19].


How can you evade taxes when you are tax exempt...He may have been charged, but never convicted ;)

Hovinds Tax problems said:
Tax evasion

In 1996 Hovind unsuccessfully filed for bankruptcy to avoid paying federal income taxes. Hovind was found to have lied about his possessions and income[20]. He claimed that as a minister of God everything he owns belonged to God and he is not subject to paying taxes to the United States on the money he received for doing God's work (citing US tax code §508(c)(1)(a)) [21]. The court ordered him to pay the money and supported the IRS view that Hovind's claim "was filed in bad faith for the sole purpose of avoiding payment of federal income taxes." In the ruling, the judge called Hovind's arguments "patently absurd." The judge also noted that "the IRS has no record of the debtor ever having filed a federal income tax return," although this was not the court's reason for denying the bankruptcy claim.
On May 13, 1998, Hovind and his wife attempted to evade all responsibility for any previous promises, debts, or legal agreements made prior to April 15, 1998, by filing a document called "Power of Attorney and Revocation of Signature"[22] with the Escambia County Clerk of Courts. The document reads, in part: "I/we do hereby revoke and make void... all signatures on any instruments...". The Hovinds claimed they had signed government documents "due to the use of various elements of fraud and misrepresentations, duress, coercion, under perjury, mistake, 'bankruptcy'."
In the document, the Hovinds argue that Social Security is essentially a "Ponzi scheme" (many conservative and libertarian economists agree, e.g. Thomas Sowell). The Hovinds referred to the United States Government as "the 'bankrupt' corporate government" and said they were revoking their United States citizenship, saying they were each "a natural citizen of 'America' and a natural sojourner." They referred to their home state of Florida as "the State of Florida Body-Politic Corporation." Judges and the IRS did not appear to honor this as a legally relevant document in future decisions.
In 2002 Hovind was again in trouble for not paying his taxes, and unsuccessfully sued the United States Internal Revenue Service for harassment. In 2004, IRS agents raided Hovind's home and business to confiscate financial records. IRS agent Scott Schneider said none of Hovind's businesses had a business license, nor tax-exempt status. The Associated Press quoted Schneider as saying "Since 1997, Hovind has engaged in financial transactions indicating sources of income and has made deposits to bank accounts well in excess of $1 million per year during some of these years, which would require the filing of federal income taxes."[23] On June 3 2004, the IRS issued tax liens[24] of $504,957.24 against Hovind and his son and their businesses. A separate lien was filed for each, due to previous legal maneuverings on the part of the elder Hovind to evade taxation by moving property between himself, his son, and other legal entities.

His "crank" material has a stronger foundation than the entire collection of "evidence" for evolution...

To the 4 year olds he talks to perhaps.
 
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livingword26

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rmwilliamsll said:
Sabbatarians have to do with whether or not we translate this part of Genesis literally or not.

i took the liberty of correcting your spelling. it really bugged me *Grin*

it matters because a constantly literal, historical reading of Genesis 1 strongly supports a Sabbatarian position. in fact, the role of the Sabbath in Gen1 is far, far more important than any information about the scientific order you can gain from it.

my big point, is that YECism is a social-religious phenomena, it is not a consistent hermenetical technique or even a school of Biblical interpretation. if it were the two issues: age of the earth, and Sabbath would be as tightly bound in the YECist community as it is in the SDA church which is a consistent hermeneutical community that does take the GEn1 to be very literal .....

my point is that you are YEC and not Sabbatarian which proves that you are not really reading Gen1 literally, but are reading GEn1 as a modern scientific document. the literal label is a red herring.


....

Ok. Lots of labels. To that I can only say that when possible, why should we not take the bible literally. There are many things that obviously must be taken as metaphore or prophecy, but what reason do we have to say that the day was not a day?
 
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rmwilliamsll

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livingword26 said:
Ok. Lots of labels. To that I can only say that when possible, why should we not take the bible literally. There are many things that obviously must be taken as metaphore or prophecy, but what reason do we have to say that the day was not a day?

lots of labels
yes theology is a technical field and has it's own technical vocabulary. if you wish to play in someone else's sandbox the least you can do is properly learn their vocabulary so you can communicate with them. why else be there?


you miss the point entirely.
if you took Gen 1 literally you would be SDA or at least Sabbatarian. But YECists are (in general) not. Why?


do you have any idea of the history of biblical hermeneutics?
who is the first consistently literal theologian that justified the "primacy of the literal"? why?

btw.
i am TE yet understand Gen 1 to be using 24 hour days, so what?
 
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KerrMetric

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Gwenyfur said:
Kerr::

Nice to see you can use the copy/paste function from wikipedia...a source known to be evolutionary biased...

However go to the Patriot University records site and you'll find something interesting adn credible there ;)


I believe AIG used to have a page saying basically the same thing. He got a fake qualification from a correspondence degree mill. End of story. The guy is a loon.

How is Wikipedia evolution biased. You mean non-Creationist biased I think becuase they try to keep junk out.
 
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The Lady Kate

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Gwenyfur said:
Kerr::

Nice to see you can use the copy/paste function from wikipedia...a source known to be evolutionary biased...

However go to the Patriot University records site and you'll find something interesting adn credible there ;)

Perhaps if Patriot University (and the fact that I don't put that name in quotes shows how tired I am) actually had a records site, they'd have something credible to offer. ;)
 
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Scholar in training

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livingword26 said:
Ok. Lots of labels. To that I can only say that when possible, why should we not take the bible literally.
Why is a literal interpretation the watershed and default principle of the interpretative process? Context should be our defining principle of interpretation; it should help to establish whether or not the entire passage in question is literal or not, or what parts of the passage are literal or not. Internal AND external evidences are part of this process. Scientific theories are one type of external evidence that the creation account should be interpreted in one way and not in another. If YECists can appeal to external evidences like the teleological argument, then they should not complain when TEs appeal to their own external evidences like the theory of evolution.
 
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KerrMetric

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Gwenyfur said:
Amazing that Patriot, at the time Hovind recieved his degree was housed inside of Colorado Bible College...

amazing....

What a school:

Critics have charged that Patriot Bible University is a diploma mill as it has unreasonably low graduation requirements, lack of sufficient faculty or educational standards, and a suspicious tuition scheme, among other issues. The college itself has claimed that it simply does not "choose" to be accredited by standard associations [7]. Patriot Bible University is however authorized to operate as a Bible college and to legally issue "religious degrees" by the State of Colorado Higher Education Commission.
That Patriot Bible University has existed since 1979 and has been legally issuing degrees since then, plus the fact that fewer than 100 degrees are usually issued per year, does little to quell concerns about Patriot being a degree mill. Patriot's tuition and curriculum practices are unusual at best, and decidedly questionable, and a degree from any such school is worth no more than the paper it is printed on.
Some of the criticism is leveled by critics of one of its controversial, well-known graduates, American creationist and evangelist Kent Hovind, who received a Ph.D. degree in Christian Education from Patriot in 1991 (it no longer offers this degree). Hovind's use of the title "Doctor" in particular has provoked extensive scrutiny of his education credentials and his dissertation.






ROTLF. LOL



Even accredited Bible colleges aren't usually worth a darn, this place is a joke.
 
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KerrMetric

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Gwenyfur said:
Not hard to find www.patriotuniversity.com
guess you really are tired if ya can't find that...

I did find it. It tells you nothing. the fact they are uncredited and basically unknown speaks volumes.
 
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