If Calvinism is true....

[Van]

MamaZ, What part of "for the whole world" do you not understand. How did Christ become the propitiation for the whole world. Did you answer that question? Nope.

Christ died for all men, this is incontestable. John Calvin.

 

[Van]

And now Heymikey rewrites scripture to say 1 John 2:2 says the whole world is propitiated. One falsehood after another is how Calvinism is defended folks, just as fast as they can type. How did Christ become the propitiation for the whole world? Folks the answer that everybody knows is He died for the whole world. John Calvin agreed.

 

[Van]

What does "all" mean? It means all of the thing in view. If a chicken pot pie is in view, and someone says I ate all the pie, he is not saying I ate every berry pie in Oregon. So if Christ draws all men to himself, it does not mean all those who did not see him high and lifted up, but it does mean all those who saw him high and lifted up. It sure does not mean some of the men who saw Him high and lifted up. That would rewrite scripture.

So when scripture says God desires "all men" to be saved, that could refer to all mankind or some other subset supported by the context. However the context supports mankind.

 

[MamaZ]

John said Christ is the propitiation for the whole world.

No He didn't..

 

[heymikey80]

What I said is that Salvation is conditioned upon putting our faith in Christ alone, John 3:16.

No, what you said was that Calvinism states salvation is unconditional.

That's not merely a misstatement. We've been through this before. This is beyond simply spreading falsehood.

Does Philippians 1:29 says faith is given or God has allowed them to believe?

The word in Greek is given. Paul didn't speak English.

God granted or allowed them to believe, He did not preclude it.

Ah, so how nice of God to just not preclude the Philippians from suffering:

For it has been given to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake Pp 1:29
​

So God didn't really mean anything at all in Pp 1:29. Giving doesn't mean giving, suffering is just made available to them.

There is absolutely no support in scripture for the fiction of the instilling of the "gift of faith" prior to salvation. And note folks, the shift of subject, the issue is irresistible grace and rather than discuss a verse that demonstrates God's call is not irresistible, the subject is changed to another verse.

Mostly because the verse Van brought, Mt 23:13, doesn't even mention faith. Van shifted the subject without providing any verse in real support of it.

And then yet another denial of Calvinism's doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability. The doctrine says because we are dead in our sins, we have no ability to seek God, to hear the gospel, to understand the gospel, or to respond to the gospel. Everyone is like the first soil in the parable of the four soils according to Calvinism, and that is demonstrated false by the other three soils.

Apparently Van, you can only dish out Boettner, you can't take him?

And then yet another misrepresentation of my position, claiming my view is apparently that babes in Christ are unregenerate. Babes in Christ have the same understanding level as men in the flesh because they have not yet matured, they are not ready for meat.

You're the one who picked 1 Cor 3:1 and stated it referred to the unregenerate.

Retract your assertion and now retract your allegation that I misrepresented your view.

Heymikey's version of Calvinism has redefined Total Spiritual Inability to Limited Spiritual Ability, and Limited Atonement to say Christ died for all men. Thus his form of Calvinism closer to scripture, closer to the truth. And no Calvinist has said he is off the reservation.

Van once again occupies his imagined world of victory in the face of certain defeat.

Van continually chops up quotes. Now he's down to quoting me in two-word sound bites "all men". And pointedly, I didn't say this was Limited Atonement. In fact quite the opposite, Van (another obvious falsehood on your quotation), I said, "Christ died for all men, yet not all men are saved." Do I need to spell it out to you? Christ's death for all men did not atone for every individual, but rather condemned some to destruction. Christ gained the right of Lordship over the entire creation. He did not thereby save every person without exception.

I'm sorry you're drowning in this little word "all", Van. Maybe you should take to heart my prior posting 160, because it's an accurate point about the word.

 

[MamaZ]

MamaZ, What part of "for the whole world" do you not understand. How did Christ become the propitiation for the whole world. Did you answer that question? Nope.

Christ died for all men, this is incontestable. John Calvin.

Christ died for all sin... Difference there.

 

[heymikey80]

No He didn't..

Um, I was asking Van due to his interpretation of this as intentionally propitiating for sins. In that view, John certainly did say so:

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

He even included the verb "is".

Of course to Calvinist eyes this isn't stating Christ's intention. It's stating Christ's uniqueness.

Ah, I just noticed your posting about for sins -- yes, that's what He's turning aside wrath for. The question remains for Van to sidestep(!):

What wrath is left if sins are propitiated for everything in the world, without exception in all detail?

Van?

Bueller?

Anyone?

 

[MamaZ]

Mikey He is for the sins.. Not sinners and not men.. So therefore Jesus died for the Sins of the world.. Only those Chosen have thier sins forgiven through the redeeming blood of Christ.. Those not in Christ still have the wrath of God that abides on them. So this is why scripture shows us that He died for sin.. Once for all.. We have peace with God through His blood..

 

[heymikey80]

Mikey He is for the sins.. Not sinners and not men.. So therefore Jesus died for the Sins of the world.. Only those Chosen have thier sins forgiven through the redeeming blood of Christ.. Those not in Christ still have the wrath of God that abides on them. So this is why scripture shows us that He died for sin.. Once for all.. We have peace with God through His blood..

The trouble I ran into with this -- the word "propitiation" here is "turns aside wrath".

Again, I'd agree with you on the basic principle, God's wrath remains on those not in Christ.

But if Van's view carries and this verse is not Jesus' role before the entire world, but His actual accomplishment, then Van has no right to add conditions there, "if you receive" (which would be invalidated by Mt 13:20-22 anyway). The verse would be a description of Christ's accomplishment. There would be no more wrath according to this verse. And that would apply to the Whole World, in Van's interpretation: every single person. No punishment for anyone.

Which is not where Van wanted to end up, either. But that's what the text actually says on Van's assumption.

On Calvin's assumption, Christ has taken up the role of sole propitiation. He's the only place where there God's wrath is turned aside. There is no other area of appeal regarding propitiation (which is the actual term used here in Greek, translated "for"). So what happens is, believers have gone to Christ regarding propitiation and found salvation for their sins. Jesus is in the role as propitiation for the world. But He will not propitiate for unbelievers.

But if Jesus actually propitiated for the sins of the whole world, then all wrath is propitiated. Not what Van wants -- but Scripture doesn't always cross paths with Van's theology.

 

[Van]

As I said, just as fast as they can they post falsehoods, one after the other. Did the question, "What did Christ do to become the propitiation for the whole world" get answered or evaded. You be the judge folks.

Notice I get asked one question after another, yet they do not answer my question. What is up with that?

But here is the answer yet again, because they claim they did not "see" it. Christ is the propitiation for the whole world. He did not propitiate the whole world. Pretty simple. Makes you wonder why they asked? To change the subject? You be the judge folks.

Did Christ lay down his life as a ransom for all sin, or all men? How does scripture read to you, 1 Timothy 2:4-6. Calvinism has absolutely no support in scripture. It is false doctrine.

 

[JimfromOhio]

As I said, just as fast as they can they post falsehoods, one after the other. Did the question, "What did Christ do to become the propitiation for the whole world" get answered or evaded. You be the judge folks.

Notice I get asked one question after another, yet they do not answer my question. What is up with that?

But here is the answer yet again, because they claim they did not "see" it. Christ is the propitiation for the whole world. He did not propitiate the whole world. Pretty simple. Makes you wonder why they asked? To change the subject? You be the judge folks.

Did Christ lay down his life as a ransom for all sin, or all men? How does scripture read to you, 1 Timothy 2:4-6. Calvinism has absolutely no support in scripture. It is false doctrine.

From what you are saying, when Jesus died for ALL, then ALL will go into heaven.

While calvinism believes that the gift of faith in Christ's atonement, created in the heart of the believer by the Holy Spirit.

We are to be careful when we are using the word "ALL" because Christian faith is not optimism because it breeds false hope. True faith and true hope is knowing true faith that only the Holy Spirit can teach us. Christ dwells in our hearts, and "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27) is the burning core of the Christian faith.

 

[heymikey80]

As I said, just as fast as they can they post falsehoods, one after the other. Did the question, "What did Christ do to become the propitiation for the whole world" get answered or evaded. You be the judge folks.

Notice I get asked one question after another, yet they do not answer my question. What is up with that?

When you say "give me a break" after posting a highly charged question, it's considered rhetorical. You're not asking the question honestly.

Why should we be forced to answer a dishonest question?

God didn't intend to propitiate for every person in the whole world. You put conditions on that propitiation as well as do Calvinists.

But here is the answer yet again, because they claim they did not "see" it. Christ is the propitiation for the whole world. He did not propitiate the whole world. Pretty simple. Makes you wonder why they asked? To change the subject? You be the judge folks.

Oh, "Christ is the propitiation for the whole world. He did not propitiate the whole world." You're saying that Jesus' action on the Cross did not intend to propitiate for the whole world?!
Yeah, it's really simple. It's Calvinism.

Did Christ lay down his life as a ransom for all sin, or all men? How does scripture read to you, 1 Timothy 2:4-6. Calvinism has absolutely no support in scripture. It is false doctrine.

But you just said, "He did not propitiate for the whole world." See quote above! If He intended to propitiate only for some, then you're singing Calvinism's song. The only difference between you and a Calvinist then would be the condition you place on it. The same complaint you're making about Calvinism, you'd need to address from this your own view.

If He offered propitiation for all, yet all didn't receive it -- then you've got the only proposal that's acceptable to your theology. Unfortunately, it doesn't slip the noose of this verse, which says "He is the propitiation regarding our sins, and not for ours only but also regarding the sins of the whole world." Which is why it can't be dissipated. Jesus is the propitiation for sins. It does not say He is an offerer of propitiation. It says He is the propitiation.

 

[MamaZ]

It has been answered for the propitiation was for sin of the whole world.. Jesus became sin .

 

[Van]

Here is a typical statement by a Calvinist, If Christ died for all, then all would go to heaven. Sheer nonsense, and they know it. For example Christ is the propitiation for the whole world, but that in no way says everyone has received the benefits of that propitiation. But that is the Calvinist claim. LOL

And yet again, without any reference to scripture the false doctrine of the "gift of pre-salvation faith" is proclaimed.

Then we get evasion, they say the question was not asked correctly so it will not be answered. LOL Did God intend to make the propitiation available to the whole world? Of course.

Christ did not propitiate the whole world, everyone has not received the benefits of the propitiation He provides for the whole world. His intent was to provide the propitiation for the whole world and He did with 100 percent success. He intended for the propitiation to be available to whoever believes in Him, anyone in the whole world.

And note that no Calvinist, not one of the three answered the question "How did Christ become the propitiation for the whole world." The answer is Christ died for the whole world. But that truth from scripture is rejected by Calvinism.

 

[MamaZ]

And note that no Calvinist, not one of the three answered the question "How did Christ become the propitiation for the whole world." The answer is Christ died for the whole world. But that truth from scripture is rejected by Calvinism.

Well leaving out words of scripture to prove your point is noted and seen. You cannot show me in scripture where Jesus died for every man. I have shown this to you. He has died for every sin. HE became sin so that we might become the righteousness of HIM...

 

[JimfromOhio]

Here is a typical statement by a Calvinist, If Christ died for all, then all would go to heaven. Sheer nonsense, and they know it. For example Christ is the propitiation for the whole world, but that in no way says everyone has received the benefits of that propitiation. But that is the Calvinist claim. LOL

And yet again, without any reference to scripture the false doctrine of the "gift of pre-salvation faith" is proclaimed.

Then we get evasion, they say the question was not asked correctly so it will not be answered. LOL Did God intend to make the propitiation available to the whole world? Of course.

Christ did not propitiate the whole world, everyone has not received the benefits of the propitiation He provides for the whole world. His intent was to provide the propitiation for the whole world and He did with 100 percent success. He intended for the propitiation to be available to whoever believes in Him, anyone in the whole world.

And note that no Calvinist, not one of the three answered the question "How did Christ become the propitiation for the whole world." The answer is Christ died for the whole world. But that truth from scripture is rejected by Calvinism.

Propitiation points us to the removal of the divine wrath, and Christ has done this by bearing the wrath for us. Redemption, justification, reconciliation, removal of sin, and propitiation are all corollaries of the substitutionary work of Christ on the cross for those who believe in Him.

Calvinism believes that the atonement is limited to those who believe and were chosen by God, whereas the Arminian side of it would say that everybody’s sins have been paid for, all across the world, whether people believe or not.

Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of people who don’t believe. That’s a problem because if your sins are paid for already by Jesus and you go to hell, then that’s double jeopardy. So, in saying that, I say that anything you say in your post are false teachings.

 

[Van]

Still waiting for the answer MamaZ, why not answer the question rather than change the subject? And I referred you to 1 Timothy 2:4-6 which says Christ died for all men. First God says He desires all men to be saved and then says Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. And I do not leave out words to make my point, yet another false charge against me, rather than addressing doctrine.

 

[Van]

Propitiation does not point us to the removal of divine wrath, it points us to the mechanism by which the wrath is removed. When we are spiritually placed in Christ, we receive the benefits of Christ being the propitiation, for we undergo the Circumcision of Christ and our body of flesh (sin) is removed

Calvinism says Christ did not die for all men, but Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, and even John Calvin accepted that it is incontestable that Christ died for all mankind.

And then we get the recycled "double jeopardy" argument yet again. How many times has this bit of fiction been trotted out? Christ is the propitiation for the whole world, therefore whoever is spiritually placed in Him, whether one person, or one zillion people, their sins are forgiven. God accepted His sacrifice as the propitiation for the whole world. Whoever is spiritually placed in Christ is covered with His blood and is forgiven.

 

[Van]

As you can see, folks, one false doctrine after another has been posted, but nothing has been posted to support the T, the U, the L or the I in the TULIP, for they are false doctrines.

 

[Rightglory]

heymikey80,

Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of people who don’t believe. That’s a problem because if your sins are paid for already by Jesus and you go to hell, then that’s double jeopardy. So, in saying that, I say that anything you say in your post are false teachings.

Christ propitiated the sins of the world. It has nothing to do with particular or individual sins. If Christ spilled just one drop of blood it is sufficient for one sin as well as every sin that will be committed ever. But we by repentance and confession place our sin upon that once offering for sin that was completed long time ago. If we do not place our sin upon that offering, in other words, commit them to Christ, for forgiveness those sins remain with you and will condemn you. This is the purpose of Christ being the High Priest in heaven, our mediator, and the one who accepts those sins as having been propitiated, thus He will forgive them.