If All Churches/Church History was Wiped out, how would the Gospel Message Continue?

sculleywr

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The Church Militant, by definition, is those of us struggling together on earth, in perfect Communion TOGETHER with Christ. If there are none on earth, then the Church militant has disappeared, and all have been brought into the Church triumphant. The Church Militant will have been removed from the earth, meaning it is either the end, or Christ lied.

Is it narrow-minded? Yes.

But if there is no Church Militant, then the visible church has been prevailed over, because there is then no place for the Truth to be taught in its fullness, as it was intended. Were that possible, I would not be a Christian, because, honestly, that's plain depressing.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Eschatology makes a world of difference, IMHO, when it comes to the issue of how one understands the Church Militant and struggle with Christ. For there are many schools of thought that see parallel dynamics when it comes to the Church Triumphant being HERE and still YET to come when it comes to the future intersecting with the past.....what has already occurred from God's perspective playing out in our time frame.

And for others, it's really not a matter of Christ lied since there were always various ways in which Christ was interpreted when it came to the way the Church Militant would be present. Many tend to have a view of Church Militant from a Futurist perspective - that all things must end at some point for the Church before Christ comes back - while others have a Partial Preterist perspective, that many things have already occurred and were not a clear-cut matter of "All saints disappear from the Earth - then Christ comes back." Some of this was discussed more in-depth elsewhere in #49

T.L. Frazier (an Orthodox Christian) made a solid case on the issue for not having a futurist perspective fully in one of the books he made - it's not partial-preterism per se so much as it's Amillennialism, which tends to carry partial-preterist tones in my opinion. It was a very compelling read, to be sure. It covers a broader spectrum of eschatological belief.... AND critiques (more accurately points out the lunacy of) some of the futurist nonsense that's been peddled the past half century, such as Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth and the Left Behind series by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins and then the second half of the book discusses the historic Christian views in contrast to the futurist views. For more, one can investigate the following:

From where I've come from, it used to be a matter of believing the Church HAD to be on the Earth in order for God to reach the World - and then, once it left (per the End Times mindset I had), then the world would crumble. But in studying more on the issue and seeing partial preterism, I've come to understand how much it was never limited to that view alone when it comes to the Church Militant - and how much we end up making literal stances from things that were never clear cut from Jesus. A Church Militant not being present doesn't mean the Visible Church was prevailed over anymore than a Church hidden by God from persecution/having to remain underground and thus unknown to many above ground has been prevailed over because others may not know about it - in both the case of a Church hidden from others to preserve it and a Church wiped out but still present in Christ, the Lord is triumphant....and God's timing is everything.

If all churches were wiped out, I don't see how it would not be the case that Christ would simply not start over in sharing His revelation with another if it was HIS will that the Church continue on for others since he wishes none to perish and takes His time - it's not as if His hands are tied to the point where if all churches were instantly wiped out, his hand is forced and we end up doing things similar to what's advocated in much of Zionist thought when it comes to assuming we can speed up the hand of the Lord - a mindset many have had to combat for years:


https://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/h...lse&aff_id=0&locale=en_us&ui=1&os_ver=6.1.1.0</DIV>

Who's to say that the Lord could not easily replenish places where Churches were wiped out and share truth again in its fullness? Is anything too hard for the Lord? He's not trapped by man - and if it weren't possible for Him to do just that, I'd not find it wise to follow Him since he is controlled more by His creation than being in Control of all scenarios.... it's depressing to me to live in a world where God isn't capable of doing anything.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Well, any answer on my part is purely speculation.
Of course...
I don't know that I would say that the Twelve would be "replaced", but ...
I do think - since those roles were given to the Apostles - that there'd be some way the Lord would ensure others would learn of them and their history so as to know what occurred. Be it a vision or a download of some sort from the Lord - it's not impossible for such to occur anymore than it was for Enoch to be taken up to be with the Lord and allowed to witness what he did prior to his being taken up.
Previous models of development was meant to imply the same way the Fathers developed up in the times they lived in (as well as how disciples developed) and seeing how they would format if it occurred again...

Nonetheless, indeed, I do think new "Fathers" of a sort would also arise to set the stage for the times they lived in..
Persecution does help to spread things - and in theory, a total persecution/seemingly successful attempt to eradicate things would only lead to a STRONGER come-back when the Church was seen on the scene again.

Take the example of someone leading a rebellion to topple a corrupt regime - and then have them be given a fatal blow when their successful/organized resistance was wiped out. In doing so, it's more than possible that the person would be risen to legendary status amongst the downtrodden who still believed in them even though there were no more physical records/data of them existing and this would allow them to spark a planet-wide popular uprising, by making them into the "hero" who the dominant persecuting camp had failed to kill.

In the same way, it'd make sense (if it seemed the entire Church was wiped out on the Earth) for God to be glorified in it even when there was a lack of physical supplies documenting the history of the Church/its background or scripture - people being shown revelation from God on what actually happened....and bringing things back again would have a stronger resurgence in the belief system than before (especially when having access to the memory of how the Church was wiped off the planet before physically - but not eternally) - and they'd be more determined to spread the Word.

Agreed
 
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Noxot

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I don't know what people are doing, most of them seem trapped in a psychosis and almost completely mad.
only in part though since there is also a good angel with all. in some sense history does not matter.
that is not the root of the problem of humanity. the problem is that they are not set free by God,
they are not spiritually mature, they do not have the responsibility of freedom that God gave us,
and thus there are many problems in the world. when more people are set free, there will be more heaven in earth and less hades.
history can teach us, if we were able to properly learn. our hearts could teach us, if they were not so hardened by the world and hades.
I don't think it matters what someone does if they are aware of what they are doing,
and if they are truly aware they don't do things that are evil because they are aware that what they do to themselves or others they do to God.
what i'm trying to say with all this is that the root of the problem is the human condition as opposed to what they do.
what they do naturally comes out of what condition they are in. ignorance births ignorance, love births love.

I honestly have no clue what ( for example ) my countries (USA) mindset is about. it got us this far,
but I saw a lot better things in heaven, if only they knew that heaven is what God offers to them,
that it is what he desires for this world. and yet I guess so many are waiting for the day they die for heaven,
or for the return of Jesus to make everything better. I used to be the same way, except now I realize that God
sent his Spirit here for a reason, to melt to world with his fire and then the evil elements will burn up.
I realized that Jesus never left and he is still working on humanity.

I guess that I am of the mindset that most people are sleeping and don't know it, that they are far more ignorant of
reality than what God desires us to be. awake and praying, like Jesus wanted, he finding even the disciples falling
to sleep at a crucial moment in his life, his very friend assisting in his torture and death, along with all the crowd who
stupidly went along with the insanity of the religious and government leaders condemning the innocent lamb.
but Jesus accepted it all as from his loving Father, knowing that God would use what satan means for evil, for the
most profound and greatest good.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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It can take time for people to truly wake up...
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Gxg (G²)

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without Scriptures, it would be MUCH harder to follow the Holy Spirit. I have no doubt that He could do it, but as for me that is often how I know what I know.
So glad the Lord is who He is - able to do beyond what we could ever think or imagine!
 
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sculleywr

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To be quite honest, Eschatological views about the end times, as viewed by us who aren't in the end times, ends up with enough views, even within ORthodox circles, to warrant caution. It's kinda like the Jewish pictures of Messiah at the time Christ came. Bunches of ideas, but most, if not all, were wrong.

We lack the context of the occurrence of things prophecied with which to read Scriptures about the future.

Yes, the Lord COULD do whatever He wants. But Christ promised His Church would never be prevailed against by even the gates of hell. And since the Church still exists, trying to imagine a time without the Church is like trying to imagine a time without the sun.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Indeed - eschatology can be quite the animal to tackle. One of the reasons why it has been wisdom whenever others note the ways that there should always be a dynamic of focusing on the here/now ultimately with how one lives for the Lord seeing that NONE of us were present in the timeframe Christ and the Apostles spoke on the End Times (nor do we know fully what they were thinking) to have the full picture in place. It's not necessarily a matter of all being wrong as much as all being incomplete and needing to understand we see in part/know in part.

The same dynamic also goes for the issue of the Church Militant and what that actually means - it always becomes problematic whenever people assume they know fully what that meant when even the Fathers themselves had debates on the subject.

But thankfully, there are others that done great presentations on the issue. Fr. Thomas Hopko, a long time minister in the Orthodox Church, once presented what I think is probably on of the best message on fulfilled eschatology (similar to partial preterism...) and the Kingdom/Gospel narrative I have ever heard....in line with the "heaven now" view present throughout Orthodox theology.




Technically, his views were a fusion of both partial prêterism and idealism - as Partial Preterism has been present throughout Eastern Orthodox theology since the early church and dealing with the importance of the destruction of the Jewish temple, the meaning of the "end of the age" and why Christians should be troubled by efforts to rebuild a temple in Jerusalem or what the End Times may look like shouldn't be something believers need to be afraid of tackling - it's not stopping anyone from ultimately seeing that the Kingdom of God is triumphant TODAY.

Obvious is the case that the Church (thankfully ) still exists - and thankful for the work done. Nonetheless, Christ promising His Church would never be prevailed has never been universally agreed upon to be saying His Church would never have times of immense absence on the Earth (even though present in Him) or that it was possible that the Church may never have a visible presence on the world at times - to consider that things could be wiped out is no different than others considering what would occur if the Sun did go out and discussing how survival would occur. There's a reason scientists have actually made that a point of focus just as they have with other global catastrophes which could occur and knowing how to deal with them - it's not as if they choose to live as if those events are happening (as the sun hasn't gone out/turned into a Super Nova...even though stars like it will eventually...and it's not as if there is a meteor/asteroid that has hit the Earth yet, even though such has occurred before and people prepare for that).

There have been Ice Ages, times where the Sun couldn't get through to many parts of the Earth (Volcanos/ash clouds making a difference at times) and other ecological disasters - and simply because those may be things we're not experiencing today doesn't mean it's automatically a matter of it not being able to occur again or happen on a wide scale/become something others should not have prepared for. Witnessing a time where things were drastically bad on the Earth didn't stop one from appreciating solid weather (just as meteorologists and scientists noting how the climate can alter don't automatically ignore the climate present or man being able to adapt) - and likewise, IMHO, it is the case that understanding/considering the idea of the Church not being present physically on the Earth isn't automatically a matter of the Kingdom of God not prevailing - seasons can change very quickly, but God's Kingdom never ends. Christ in His Church will ALWAYS be Triumphant - how that plays out on the Earth below (Church Militant) is not a matter anyone can know fully (and that includes the issue of what happens on the world we live in).

What is known is that Christ ultimately WINS in the end - with the Resurrection being one of the ultimate signs of that, as the resurrection doesn't happen until the end of time, when "the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Rev. 20:12)

There is one Church, one body of Christ (Eph. 4:4). And there are saints alive in heaven (Rev. 5:8; 6:9-11; 7:9-15), or as Hebrews puts it when speaking of the Old Testament saints: "we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses" (Heb. 12:1). And speaking of a Church triumphant gives full expression, and takes literally, the Scriptural passage which says that "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matt. 22:32). The saints are not disconnected from the body of Christ, but aware of what is going on, even participating with us in the spiritual life. There are a number of arguments based on St. Paul in Gal. 1:24 (fullfilling in his suffering what is lacking in Christ's passion for the sake of the Church ) that echo the race analogy of comparing
the Church to a relay race ( I Cor. 9:21, Gal. 2:2, Phil. 3:14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1 etc.) ....for the saints, who prayed for others during their lives, cannot stop now having won the prize and finished the race successfully until God feels that the race/gathering others into His Kingdom is done.

And it can never be as if the saints in the Heavens above (or the Lord) would freak out if all the believers on the Earth below were removed - if there's still a race to be done, having an interruption to that race or Track & Field event would not mean the other runners are done. It is simply a pause - the race continues until others at the Track Meet feel it is over...and likewise, with the Lord, when he says it's over, that's when it'll be over - but man removing the physical saints from the Earth wouldn't be the same as God saying "Now I'm gonna move in/end it all" since it's the Lord who handles it all....until He feels the Church has become Triumphant and is no longer needing to be Militant.​
 
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sculleywr

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"immense absence"? Is this different in any way from complete absence?

If there is even ONE person in His Church, with real connection back to the Apostles, then the Church persists.

Let us who are here pray we never need to experience a time of immense absence.

Btw: Fr. Hopko is one of my subscribed podcasters
 
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Gxg (G²)

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"immense absence"? Is this different in any way from complete absence?
You could say that - you can never truly eradicate the people of God or His Word in an ultimate sense anyhow

If there is even ONE person in His Church, with real connection back to the Apostles, then the Church persists.
Indeed - and thus, God will ALWAYS win...He's always ahead of the game, with people in places no one would ever know about that get activated even after the enemy thinks he has gotten them all (or before it even gets to that point).
Let us who are here pray we never need to experience a time of immense absence.
Amen..
Btw: Fr. Hopko is one of my subscribed podcasters


That's awesome to hear....He's truly a godsend..
 
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sculleywr

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lol, I think we were debating against completely different things. lol.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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LittleLambofJesus

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If All Churches/Church History was Wiped out, how would the Gospel Message Continue?

If there was no way the Gospel Message could continue, that is probably when the end of the world comes,
when Jesus comes to bring the Gospel with Him and Saints to preach the Gospel for a 1000yr period as shown in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation. IMHO

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923-101/
How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

Matthew 24:3
Yet of sitting Him upon the Mount of the Olives, toward-came to Him the Disciples, according to own, saying "be telling to us, when?! shall these-things be
and what?! the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV <3952>
and the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age"

Reve 16:17
and the seventh Messenger pours out the bowl of him into the air and came out great voice from the Sanctuary of the heaven from the throne saying "it is finished!"
[Daniel 12/Revelation 15:1]






.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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It was that bad eh?




.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Eschatological views about the end times, as viewed by us who aren't in the end times, ends up with enough views, even within ORthodox circles, to warrant caution..
Was very thankful for what was noted here, as seen in the following:

To understand eschatology we must begin not with the ‘last things’, but with the past. If eschatology is ultimately the coming of the Kingdom of God, then we must begin with the gospels, in which Christ proclaims that the Kingdom has arrived. This is illustrated in the miracles and exorcisms which Christ wrought. The kingdom of death and sickness was overthrown. And yet, Christ also speaks of a kingdom to come. He speaks also of His second coming and the last judgement. Herein lies the paradox of the Church in its eschatological dimension: the Kingdom of God has already arrived, and still it is yet to come. This is the basis of our understanding of the Church, of the Kingdom of God, of heaven and hell.


The Church is, in the words of Fr George Florovsky, “the image of eternity in time”. Thus it lives both in this age and in the age to come. The “eschatological” dimension of the Church begins with Christ’s Resurrection. This was the beginning of the end. The early Christians spoke of their living in “the last days”, not because they simply got it wrong, but because they understood that the age to come had already broken through in this present age because Christ had already raised human nature into the heights of heaven by His Resurrection and Ascension, and promised to return in glory.​
 
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Gxg (G²)

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That's possible...
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Glad Dr.Jenkins did a video presentation on the concept of having a THEOLOGY of extinction...

 
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Noxot

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Jesus had a lot of the answers already.

people seem to have a natural bias for secondary things and they tend to put secondary things as the head and forget who is the one who truly matters. it is the entire problem of the difference between the soul and the spirit.
Matt 19:16-26 (YLT)
And lo, one having come near, said to him, `Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have life age-during?' And he said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one is good except One--God; but if thou dost will to enter into the life, keep the commands.' He saith to him, `What kind?' And Jesus said, `Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, honour thy father and mother, and, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.' The young man saith to him, `All these did I keep from my youth; what yet do I lack?' Jesus said to him, `If thou dost will to be perfect, go away, sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come, follow me.' And the young man, having heard the word, went away sorrowful, for he had many possessions; and Jesus said to his disciples, `Verily I say to you, that hardly shall a rich man enter into the reign of the heavens; and again I say to you, it is easier for a camel through the eye of a needle to go, than for a rich man to enter into the reign of God.' And his disciples having heard, were amazed exceedingly, saying, `Who, then, is able to be saved?' And Jesus having earnestly beheld, said to them, `With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'

I mean, can something that is dead earnestly behold you?

see how some men are bound by mere compulsion to repeat what has already been done? I know that tradition is a good thing but most things can become good or evil. see how Jesus explains how in the spirit a person is existing in reality and not mere abstract thinking? abstract thinking and set rules and laws have their use and are part of reality but "the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath." reality often logically explains itself because God is the mind behind it. the spirit gives life and without it what are we left with but the old or death or secondary things? if death is destruction and life is preservation then it is the spirit or person that makes the outer garment worthy and God has always refreshed us because he is the Father of lights who gives every perfect gift.
Matt 9:14-17 (YLT)
Then come to him do the disciples of John, saying, `Wherefore do we and the Pharisees fast much, and thy disciples fast not?' And Jesus said to them, `Can the sons of the bride-chamber mourn, so long as the bridegroom is with them? but days shall come when the bridegroom may be taken from them, and then they shall fast. `And no one doth put a patch of undressed cloth on an old garment, for its filling up doth take from the garment, and a worse rent is made. `Nor do they put new wine into old skins, and if not--the skins burst, and the wine doth run out, and the skins are destroyed, but they put new wine into new skins, and both are preserved together.'

so in the spirit we fast and are poor when we are deaf and blind and the spirit makes us rich and able to see but if we are forgiven and then we beat those who have slighted us then have we not thrown away our inheritance in debauchery and forgotten what is greater than riches? all things are pure to the pure but who is your everything?
 
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