If absolutely everything is predestined, and there is no choice, then wouldn't all have to be saved?

[Devin P]

I'm not in agreement with that.

God didn't hate Esau, He just didn't choose him to be the progenitor to Christ.

Of course God sees it through foreknowledge like our choices are allready made, but at the same time He deals with each choice in the present moment.

Malachi 1:2-3 -
“I loved you,” says the Lord.

“But you ask, ‘How did you love us?’

“Wasn’t Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “I loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I hated. I turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the jackals in the desert.

 

[zoidar]

Malachi 1:2-3 -
“I loved you,” says the Lord.

“But you ask, ‘How did you love us?’

“Wasn’t Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “I loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I hated. I turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the jackals in the desert.

Hate here is symbolic language. Jesus says we are to hate our family and ourselves to follow him. It doesn't mean we are to hate our family, but to choose Jesus first.

 

[zoidar]

Malachi 1:2-3 -
“I loved you,” says the Lord.

“But you ask, ‘How did you love us?’

“Wasn’t Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “I loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I hated. I turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the jackals in the desert.

Easu was given plenty. I think what you are quoting has less to do with Esau and more to do with the Edomites who were descendants of Esau.

Gen 33

4 Then Esau ran to meet him and embraced him, and fell on his neck and kissed him, and they wept. 5 He lifted his eyes and saw the women and the children, and said, “Who are these with you?” So he said, “The children whom God has graciously given your servant.” 6 Then the maids came near with their children, and they bowed down. 7 Leah likewise came near with her children, and they bowed down; and afterward Joseph came near with Rachel, and they bowed down. 8 And he said, “What do you mean by all this company which I have met?” And he said, “To find favor in the sight of my lord.” 9 But Esau said, “I have plenty, my brother; let what you have be your own.” 10 Jacob said, “No, please, if now I have found favor in your sight, then take my present from my hand, for I see your face as one sees the face of God, and you have received me favorably. 11 Please take my gift which has been brought to you, because God has dealt graciously with me and because I have plenty.” Thus he urged him and he took it.

 

[Devin P]

Easu was given plenty. I think what you are quoting has less to do with Esau and more to do with the Edomites who were descendants to Esau.

Gen 33

4 Then Esau ran to meet him and embraced him, and fell on his neck and kissed him, and they wept. 5 He lifted his eyes and saw the women and the children, and said, “Who are these with you?” So he said, “The children whom God has graciously given your servant.” 6 Then the maids came near with their children, and they bowed down. 7 Leah likewise came near with her children, and they bowed down; and afterward Joseph came near with Rachel, and they bowed down. 8 And he said, “What do you mean by all this company which I have met?” And he said, “To find favor in the sight of my lord.” 9 But Esau said, “I have plenty, my brother; let what you have be your own.” 10 Jacob said, “No, please, if now I have found favor in your sight, then take my present from my hand, for I see your face as one sees the face of God, and you have received me favorably. 11 Please take my gift which has been brought to you, because God has dealt graciously with me and because I have plenty.” Thus he urged him and he took it.

I wasn't referring to how much Esau received, I was referring to the fact that God said that before Esau was born, He hated him. Because He knew what Esau would choose, before He chose it. Before the creation of the world, God had already worked out His plan of salvation. How could He have done so, unless He knew who would and who wouldn't choose to do His will? He had to have known, so that He could knit and weave His plan through the lives of those that would come to be, and still are.

Romans 9:10-13 - 10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Malachi 1:1-3 -
1The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

2I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

 

[zoidar]

.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Hate here is symbolic language. Jesus says we are to hate our family and ourselves to follow him. It doesn't mean we are to hate our family, but to choose Jesus first.

Not according to the Author of Scripture.
He means what He Says.

Man corrupted the translation/interpretation so love is not love, hate is not hate, to so many . Don't continue in error but stop, and believe God's Word. Stop believing man's lies.

 

[zoidar]

I wasn't referring to how much Esau received, I was referring to the fact that God said that before Esau was born, He hated him. Because He knew what Esau would choose, before He chose it. Before the creation of the world, God had already worked out His plan of salvation. How could He have done so, unless He knew who would and who wouldn't choose to do His will? He had to have known, so that He could knit and weave His plan through the lives of those that would come to be, and still are.

Romans 9:10-13 - 10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Malachi 1:1-3 -
1The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

2I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

God didn't act on foreknowledge, but He acted in the present moment with both Jacob and Esau. You are free to believe that God hated Esau, but I'm not of that belief.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

God didn't act on foreknowledge, but he acted in the present moment with both Jacob and Esau. You are free to believe that God hated Esau, but I'm not of that belief.

God always has foreknowledge, according to All Scripture.

Your unbelief , not believing His Word, puts you in great danger.

 

[zoidar]

Not according to the Author of Scripture.
He means what He Says.

Man corrupted the translation/interpretation so love is not love, hate is not hate, to so many . Don't continue in error but stop, and believe God's Word. Stop believing man's lies.

"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." /Luk 14:26

Do you really think this is about hate?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." /Luk 14:26

Do you really think this is about hate?

What does it say ? (clearly and plainly)

Only those who love God and are called according to His Purpose are granted understanding.

Believe God. Not emotions. Not man's traditions. Not man's way of thinking.

Yes, you must hate your own life, if you want to be His disciple.

There is no exception.

 

[zoidar]

God always has foreknowledge, according to All Scripture.

Your unbelief , not believing His Word, puts you in great danger.

Did I say anything about God not having foreknowledge? I said He isn't acting on foreknowledge but deals with us in the present moment.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

Why?

Because God wants everyone to be saved. Or do you think Jesus made the Pharisees act the way they did?

 

[zoidar]

Yes, you must hate your own life, if you want to be His disciple.

There is no exception.

I don't understand your answer. What do you mean?

If you really mean we are to hate ourselves, you have clearly missunderstood the main part of Jesus teaching which is about love.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Did I say anything about God not having foreknowledge? I said He isn't acting on foreknowledge but deals with us in the present moment.

?
For sins in the past, if unforgiven, no matter the present moment,
for unbelief, also, people are condemned and resurrected in the future to judgment instead of to eternal life.

God's Judgment is Perfect, and His Word is Perfect; there is no fault or sin in Him.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't understand your answer. What do you mean?

If you really mean we are to hate ourselves, you have clearly missunderstood the main part of Jesus teaching which is about love.

Not at all - when God grants understanding of His Word,
when you see the truth if He grants it,
when anyone sees the truth if He grants it to them,
they hate their own life. Period. That's not the end, of course,
as God would that they be saved.
But they , no one, will be saved if they love their own life instead of hating it as God clearly says.

If you don't understand why, then you have misunderstood God's Word (in this and in everything else apparently) ,
and must seek Him for His Understanding and for His Purpose in Christ Jesus.

He means what HE says. That is what I mean also, as He has granted.

 

[zoidar]

Not at all - when God grants understanding of His Word,
when you see the truth if He grants it,
when anyone sees the truth if He grants it to them,
they hate their own life. Period. That's not the end, of course,
as God would that they be saved.
But they , no one, will be saved if they love their own life instead of hating it as God clearly says.

If you don't understand why, then you have misunderstood God's Word (in this and in everything else apparently) ,
and must seek Him for His Understanding and for His Purpose in Christ Jesus.

He means what HE says. That is what I mean also, as He has granted.

I can only say there is a huge divergency how we understand Jesus teaching. We are to love people as we love ourselves, and that love springs from the love of Christ.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I can only say there is a huge divergency how we understand Jesus teaching. We are to love people as we love ourselves, and that love springs from the love to Christ.

Love as God says to love,
hate as God says to hate.

There is no discrepancy, except in the errors and unbelief of men, not in God or His Word.

 

[Devin P]

Did I say anything about God not having foreknowledge? I said He isn't acting on foreknowledge but deals with us in the present moment.

I completely agree that He doesn't act on His foreknowledge in the sense that, if you will commit a sin that He will punish you for, He will not punish you until after you commit it. But, He does act on His foreknowledge, in the sense that the lamb was slain before the foundation of the earth. What does this mean? That, before we were created, He knew we'd mess up, and He acted on this foreknowledge to bring about salvation for us.

You're right in the sense that He doesn't act on His foreknowledge to punish us, but He does act on His foreknowledge. He is fair and just though, and urges us to do good, even when He knows we will choose the bad. Think on Cain, when even though God knew He'd kill Abel, God said that Cain should lift up his face and master sin, lest it master him.

I agree that the action He doesn't take, is that of punishment, until after the crime has happened. But, He does act on foreknowledge, constantly.

 

[zoidar]

I completely agree that He doesn't act on His foreknowledge in the sense that, if you will commit a sin that He will punish you for, He will not punish you until after you commit it. But, He does act on His foreknowledge, in the sense that the lamb was slain before the foundation of the earth. What does this mean? That, before we were created, He knew we'd mess up, and He acted on this foreknowledge to bring about salvation for us.

You're right in the sense that He doesn't act on His foreknowledge to punish us, but He does act on His foreknowledge. He is fair and just though, and urges us to do good, even when He knows we will choose the bad. Think on Cain, when even though God knew He'd kill Abel, God said that Cain should lift up his face and master sin, lest it master him.

I agree that the action He doesn't take, is that of punishment, until after the crime has happened. But, He does act on foreknowledge, constantly.

I think you are right that God plans according to foreknowledge, but at the same time like you say he doesn't punish or award anyone for something we will do, but deals with us in the present moment.

 

[Freedom~Sprite]

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Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.