If absolutely everything is predestined, and there is no choice, then wouldn't all have to be saved?

[Yarddog]

If absolutely everything and all is predestined, and there is no choice in anything, then wouldn't all have to be saved...?

Or not...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

If everything is predestined, nothing matters. We would all be doing exactly what we were destined to do. We would sin because of destiny, we would do good because of destiny. Nothing would matter.

 

[Micah888]

If we didn't have free will, we couldn't merit either heaven or hell...

While Heaven cannot be merited, the very fact that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God means that all human beings face Hell, unless they obey the Gospel.

Getting back to the OP, some things are clearly predestined by God, but not everything that happens. God's sovereignty allows for the operation of free will and the consequences of making good or bad choices. As to choices, there are always choices.

 

[Neogaia777]

Much has been broached here!

To be direct... classical theology... as born of roots in brick and mortar... and sealed outside of cannon... has no possibility of answering this question.

Was I predestined to say that? If so... illusions of existence become a thing...

Predestination?

Predestined for what?

When we say predestined to say and do... many avenues of thought with one outcome become apparent... and in that... they all suggest us puppets of God’s design.

If we suggest God predestined His Revelation Of Himself to us... we find autonomy and genuine existence becomes a thing again...

The most complex issue to grasp, when thinking dimensionally... about God’s possible perception... is that we are bound to specific dimensional perception... as in... we experience time, sight and such forth in a linear fashion...

But... and here comes the kicker...

Luke 4:

5And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, 6and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. 7If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.” 8And Jesus answered him, “It is written,

“‘You shall worship the Lord your God,
and him only shall you serve.’”

....We have Scriptural record of a specific angel that has fallen, displaying the ability to blur time... or display it in an instant....

Ever see that before?

That’s simply the power of the adversary of God...

But what of God? We know that God’s perception is so much more intensely and infinitely amazing... as in Pure Omnipotence...

How does God perceive the concept of Time... when God is infinite?

Can God relate to us within time in a genuine fashion?

I don’t know how God sees it all... but I’m certain that He isn’t watching reruns and pretending to relate to us...

Me thinks people put God in a box of time and linear relation to us, by our rules and understandings...

That’s all I’ll say for now...



What say you... @Neogaia777 ?

We say that God the Father, at least, has to all-knowing of every other creature, every situation and circumstance, every choice, to be God Almighty, otherwise, he's not maybe...

My question is mainly about God the Father, and not so much about God, the Son...

Did God the Father know long before-hand that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, and fall long before it happened, along with "everything else" that has happened, does happen and will happen, long beforehand, with no surprises fro him... Except God, the Son, or YHWH did seem to be surprised at time and not know some things, yet God the Father knew maybe...

This is mainly about God the Father as far as 100% complete true omniscience goes, not surprised by anything, knowing, and knows it all, even way before anything was even made, or came to be, or IOW, before any of our supposed choices, already knew what we would all do and choose in the way of those choices, including even, God the Son's choices... And, all of ours as well...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

If everything were predestined, there would be no point for us to go through the process of seeing how we act so we know who goes to heaven and who does not, that we are in now. God would already know.

But, if God (the Father) doesn't tell anyone else, (including God, the Son) then what choice do we (all) have but to proceed as if we do have choice in the matter or have a free will in the matter...?

God Bless!

 

[frater_domus]

Those that God preordained will understand this course of action. Those He did not will not care for their hearts are hardened.

Just a thought though. I still do not know what to make of it

 

[Neogaia777]

We say that God the Father, at least, has to all-knowing of every other creature, every situation and circumstance, every choice, to be God Almighty, otherwise, he's not maybe...

My question is mainly about God the Father, and not so much about God, the Son...

Did God the Father know long before-hand that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, and fall long before it happened, along with "everything else" that has happened, does happen and will happen, long beforehand, with no surprises fro him... Except God, the Son, or YHWH did seem to be surprised at time and not know some things, yet God the Father knew maybe...

This is mainly about God the Father as far as 100% complete true omniscience goes, not surprised by anything, knowing, and knows it all, even way before anything was even made, or came to be, or IOW, before any of our supposed choices, already knew what we would all do and choose in the way of those choices, including even, God the Son's choices... And, all of ours as well...

God Bless!

But, if God (the Father) doesn't tell anyone else, (including God, the Son) then what choice do we (all) have but to proceed as if we do have choice in the matter or have a free will in the matter...?

God Bless!

In the second Matrix movie, Neo is talking with the Oracle, and she offers him a piece of candy, and he says "You already know if I'm going to take it or not, but, if you already know, how can I make a choice...?" Then she says "Cause your not here to make the choice(s) but to understand why you made/make the choices that you do/did." Then she says "I thought you would have figured that out by now"...?

So, we may not be here to make the choices, but to understand "why" we made/make the choices that we do, or did"...

So, why did or do we, or why have we made the choices that we do or did...?

Were not here to regret any choices that we made, or wonder if we would have made them differently if we had them to do all over again... Cause the simple fact is, we wouldn't have... we would all make the same choices that we did if we had them to do over again... (and I believe all those choices are entirely predictable by God the Father for all of us, including God the Son, our God, with us as our God)

We are here to wonder and question "why" we made the choices that we did, but not to wonder about doing them any differently...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Why He (Jesus/YHWH) is called "savior" is because he is the one who always "tries" to save us, or teach us and show us how to save ourselves...

The Father may have been telling him that it is/was futile and in vain, they will destroy themselves and we will have to take over, and there is absolutely nothing that can done about it/that... it is inevitable, Son...

I can imagine him (The Son) saying, "So I shouldn't even try!" "I refuse to accept that, I can't just sit back and do nothing and watch them destroy themselves, so, I choose to act, I choose to do something, I choose to try and save them"...

This makes him have the exclusive title of "savior"...

It's a lot like the scene with Neo and the architect in the second Matirx movie, The Son is the "anomaly", and he always chooses and is predestined to try and save us always... It's how he was made...

Even if it fails, he will try and do it, cause that is his nature, that is the way and how he was made and designed, even if he and it fails... All part of the Father's plan...

Will it fail, does it fail...? I don't know...? Remains to seen...

After his work or his attempts at saving us were done, he yielded his will and submitted to the will of the Father, but only after he and his work, his attempts to save us were completely done, finished and exhausted, hoping it/they (his efforts, his work) would do or change something...

Then he stopped trying and took his seat at the right hand of the Father and waited upon his (the Father's) will and plan to be done...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Second part is the most important...

He (Christ, God, the Son, our God) is the anomaly, and the problem with the program/system, his "choice" his choice to try and save us always....

And is what has dragged "this" out so long...

His work, his attempts were finished at the cross...

Now it is up to the Father and his "choice" and what he will do about it all...

And no seems to know exactly what he will do or decide...

God Bless!

 

[zoidar]

No.
That would upset the balance.

Yin and yang?

 

[zoidar]

If everything is predestined, nothing matters. We would all be doing exactly what we were destined to do. We would sin be caused of destiny, we would do good because of destiny. Nothing would matter.

True, and I can add to that if everything was predestined there would not exist good and evil.

 

[Neogaia777]

True, and I can add to that if everything was predestined there would not exist good and evil.

Why...? Why do you say that, or how do you figure that...? What is his or your logic or reasoning for or behind that...?

What if both good and evil are all a part of God the Father's plan...?

God Bless!

 

[zoidar]

Why...? Why do you say that, or how do you figure that...? What is his or your logic or reasoning for or behind that...?

What if both good and evil are all a part of God the Father's plan...?

God Bless!

God bless you too friend!

Because God is good and holy. If God predestined everything He would make everything lasting good, because there wouldn't be any possibility of choosing evil.

Would a good God who is love predestine something that is totally against his nature? What kind of use would God have of evil when everything is good?

That's how I reason.

 

[Neogaia777]

I feel like giving up...

Everyone seems to have very limited views and narrow understanding... They can't seem to even comprehend the basic difference between God the Father, and God the Son... Heck, most don't even think of the Son being YHWH (yet)... Let alone comprehend the Father apart from that...

Maybe it's time for me to submit... Submit my will to the Father's will and just give up on all of "this"... Trying to get people to understand... I feel like none of my points, no matter how well made, are just not getting through to anyone...

But i'm driven, I feel compelled to do this, but, it feels like it's all very futile and in vain...

Cast my care... give it all to God... and give up trying to do it myself... Let the chips fall where they may... Let the world be ignorant, and go like lemmings over a cliff into their destruction... It will break my heart, and it will be very hard to do that, but maybe I should... Maybe I must...

Everyone seems to be going their own way, no matter how wrong that way is, and very, very few seem very willing to change it all, or ever...

Maybe it's time to just "let go and let God"... Realize he is in control and I can do nothing...

God Bless!

 

[fat wee robin]

Free will is the flesh's desire to be autonomous and free from God. Our sinful flesh finds certain things about God or the stuff he does in the Bible to be evil/unjust (especially in the Old Testament when he didn't mess around). Unfortunately for those who cling to free will so tightly, nowhere in the Bible it states nor alludes to "responsibility presupposes free will".

Free will causes philosophical and theological problems. God making Josepeh's brothers sell him to Egypt, guaranteed prophecies that come to pass regardless of human's choices, etc.. Sadly it has become a golden calf for some people who adopt open theism in an attempt to reconcile these problems, but end up creating much more and worse.

Only for those who are not yet children of God . He gives the gift of a freer will to those who have already passed the 'test'. He trusts them more while keeping a close Watch on their progress .
Just like in a school or a parent with many children allows the older 'good ones ' more liberty .

 

[fat wee robin]

"Compatibilists" are more or less hard determinists that use esoteric definitions. Just drop free will from your vocabulary.

And whose 'will ', will we follow ? Yours ?
The stuff of dictators ?

 

[zoidar]

I feel like giving up...

Everyone seems to have very limited views and narrow understanding... They can't seem to even comprehend the basic difference between God the Father, and God the Son... Heck, most don't even think of the Son being YHWH (yet)... Let alone comprehend the Father apart from that...

Maybe it's time for me to submit... Submit my will to the Father's will and just give up on all of "this"... Trying to get people to understand... I feel like none of my points, no matter how well made, are just not getting through to anyone...

But i'm driven, I feel compelled to do this, but, it feels like it's all very futile and in vain...

Cast my care... give it all to God... and give up trying to do it myself... Let the chips fall where they may... Let the world be ignorant, and go like lemmings over a cliff into their destruction... It will break my heart, and it will be very hard to do that, but maybe I should... Maybe I must...

Everyone seems to be going their own way, no matter how wrong that way is, and very, very few seem very willing to change it all, or ever...

Maybe it's time to just "let go and let God"... Realize he is in control and I can do nothing...

God Bless!

Exactly what is it you like to tell people, what do you want them to understand?

 

[Neogaia777]

Exactly what is it you like to tell people, what do you want them to understand?

For starters, how about a basic understanding of the difference between God the Father, and God the Son, our God...?

Do you (or does anyone, anyone at all) even get what I mean by that...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

For starters, how about a basic understanding of the difference between God the Father, and God the Son, our God...?

Do you (or does anyone, anyone at all) even get what I mean by that...?

God Bless!

Even if I did manage to make even one point, I feel like most of you, would just be and do like the Bible says, and look at your faces in the mirror (of truth, or a truth), then nearly instantly, just look away and completely forget about it all (and go back to the world and the ways of the world) anyway...

So, what is the point...?

God Bless!

 

[zoidar]

For starters, how about a basic understanding of the difference between God the Father, and God the Son, our God...?

Do you (or does anyone, anyone at all) even get what I mean by that...?

God Bless!

Why do you think this is important? Is it from your view necessary to understand this to be saved?

 

[Neogaia777]

Why do you think this is important? Is it from your view necessary to understand this to be saved?

I can't say... It very might be for some of you, but only God and yourselves can know or say for sure...

It's important cause it might be necessary for some of you...

God Bless!