LDS If a universal apostasy really happened?

Daniel Marsh

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Not so.
They would just read them to mean something not there. Many today do that.
The Jews did not destroy the Hebrew Scriptures in their great apostasy and total paganism and Baal worship,

1 Kings 19:18 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
I still have 7000 people in Israel who have never bowed down to Baal or kissed that idol.”

It was not a total Apostasy.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I have not read in their entirety all that you have written and presented. But, I will say this:
When white men were found guilty of horse or cattle stealing, they were rounded up and hung from the closest tree.
The same thing applied to Indians.

If a war exists, there will be lives lost. That is the result of war, wherever it exists. The Church of Jesus Christ was told to go to the desert of the great Salt Lake. There were only a few Indians in the whole state, so it was not going to be a huge problem. In fact
BY gave instructions to feed the Indians whenever possible and to be peaceful with them.

Some Indians of course did not like white men in their territory, which they took by bloodshed from other Indians earlier in history. Any expansion of any group of people was going to eventually erupt into conflict and it did for Mormons as well as non-Mormons in Utah.

It is unfortunate that these things happened, but opening up the wild west was not an easy job to tackle.

"
I have fed fifty Indians almost day by day for months together. I always give them something, but I never forget to treat them like Indians; and they are always mannerly and kind, and look upon me as their superior. Never let them come into your houses, as the whites did in Utah [County]. There they would let them lounge upon their beds, until finally they would quarrel and become angry, if the women would not let them lounge upon their beds. Great, big, athletic fellows would want to go into the wickeups of the "Mormons," and lounge upon their beds, and sit on their tables and on their chairs, and make as free as though they belonged to the family. When their familiarities became oppressive to the whites, and they desired them to leave their houses, it made them angry, and I knew it would. This is the true cause of the Indian difficulties in Utah.

I say to the brethren who live in the country, Treat the Indians kindly; and now is the time to finish your forts, and make them doubly strong; and then go to with all your might and prepare places to keep your cattle, that neither white nor red man can, possibly steal them from you. If you want to know how strong to build your forts and your cattle yards, I will answer you as I did the brethren when we left Nauvoo. They wanted to know what kind of lariets they must provide, and how securely they must tie their animals. I said, "Tie them so that the Devil cannot get them." Secure yourselves, then, so that you can lie down and sleep in peace and be comfortable. Now is the time for us to make efforts to build places of safety.

Our meeting has continued about as long as we wished it. The brethren will sing, and we will adjourn till to-morrow morning at ten o'clock. *Journal of Discourses Volume 6 Proper Treatment of the Indians Etc.

Commentary by Phillip B Gottfredson

The above discourse by Brigham Young is bitterly racist. The words he uses to describe the Indian people such as "low" "degraded" "red man" and "treat them like Indians" and "not as your equals" Brigham Young clearly teaches his followers to discriminate, and that both he and they are superior to their "red neighbors," and are "their saviors." Brigham states that "It is our duty to teach them good morals and the principles of the Gospel of Christ" and that "the Lord will take care of the rest of it."

While Brigham acknowledges that his Indian policies in the past have failed and that a new course of action must be taken, and he acknowledges that he and his followers have run them off their land and have caused them to suffer starvation and hardship, still he justifies his beliefs that he and his followers are superior to the Indian people in the eyes of God and are therefore pardoned of any wrong doing.

Brigham admonishes his followers not to treat the Indian people like the rest of the United States has, "the inhabitants of the United States have treated the Indians in like manner. If but one person or only a few were guilty of committing a depredation upon a white settlement, they have chastised the whole tribe for the crime, and would perhaps kill those who would fight and die for them," he says. Brigham's alternative course would be to single out individual perpetrators and bring them to trial in a all white court, with an all white jury, and under white man's law be tried and punished accordingly."
Utah's Brigham Young's Discourses On Indian Relations
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I take it that you didn't dig too deeply into this one, did you?

1. Josh Powell's father was a hard-core anti-Mormon minister who was pressuring Josh into leaving the church, such that Josh was no longer functionally a member, if he was still even on the rolls at all.

2. Powell Sr. was found to have been into some very, very awful things, such that he may have even attempted to take hidden camera footage of Susan during what should have been private moments.

3. When Susan disappeared, Powell Sr. and his cohort tried to allege that Susan had run off with someone from church and made all sorts of slanderous claims *about* the church.

Put it together, and we have the horrific prospect that Powell Sr. was the one who killed Susan and that Josh was forced to cover it up to protect him.

Think about that one.

Somehow, that means he can not be speaking the truth? that is funny.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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1. The move to Utah was specifically for the goal of finding a place so abandoned and arid that it was hoped no one other than the members of the church would ever want to be there. And while it was Mexican territory at the time, Mexico wasn't enforcing its claim.

2. Brigham Young offered to assist the federal government during the initial 1859 investigation, something that the anti-Mormon pundits who go on about Mountain Meadows tend to deliberately overlook.

It was Brigham Young himself who said:

"And if the Gentiles wish to see a few tricks, we have 'Mormons' that can perform them. WE HAVE THE MEANEST DEVILS ON THE EARTH in our midst, and WE INTEND TO KEEP THEM, FOR WE HAVE USE FOR THEM and if the Devil does not look sharp, we will cheat him out of them at the last, for they will reform and go to heaven with us." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, page 176)

Brigham Young also stated:

"If men come here and do not behave themselves, they will not only find the DANITES, whom they talk so much about, biting the horses' heels, but the scoundrels will find them biting their heels. In my plain remarks, I merely call things by their RIGHT NAMES. Brother Kimball is noted in the States for calling things by their right names, and you will excuse me if I do the same." (Journal of Discourses, V. 5, p. 6)
 
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Daniel Marsh

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“He [Brigham Young] uttered this sentiment with such a wicked working of the lower jaw and lip, and such an almost demon spirit in his whole face, that quite disposed to be incredulous on those matters. I could not help thinking of the Mountain Meadows massacre, of Danites and Avenging Angels, and their reported achievements.”

- New York Tribune, July 15, 1865

Mormon Quotes on the Danites
 
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Ironhold

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Somehow, that means he can not be speaking the truth? that is funny.

When Powell Sr.'s place got raided, they found extreme hardcore inappropriate contentography and illegal recordings in which he filmed women without their permission.

Some of the footage, if memory serves, included Susan herself.

And you're trying to defend this person why now?

It's because they found this stuff in his possession that people were beginning to suspect that Powell Sr. may have been the one to kill Susan and that Josh merely tried to cover for his dad.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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When Powell Sr.'s place got raided, they found extreme hardcore inappropriate contentography and illegal recordings in which he filmed women without their permission.

Some of the footage, if memory serves, included Susan herself.

And you're trying to defend this person why now?

It's because they found this stuff in his possession that people were beginning to suspect that Powell Sr. may have been the one to kill Susan and that Josh merely tried to cover for his dad.

That is a logical fallacy of attacking the source likely based on rumor until you document your claim with Police Reports. Even if it is a true charge that does not disprove what they wrote.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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And we're supposed to take the Tanners seriously despite their history of doctoring citations because...?

Take that claim to this new thread,
LDS - And we're supposed to take the Tanners seriously despite their history of doctoring citations

When I read their materials, I check sources like I do with anything. I have found them to be accurate.

Please document your claims from primary sources only with links.

I really do not care to read any Propagandized materials at all.
 
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Ironhold

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That is a logical fallacy of attacking the source likely based on rumor until you document your claim with Police Reports. Even if it is a true charge that does not disprove what they wrote.

...So you're saying that you're willing to stand behind a horrible human being and a blight upon Christianity simply because you agree with his theological leanings?

Consider that for a moment.
 
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Peter1000

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Take that claim to this new thread,
LDS - And we're supposed to take the Tanners seriously despite their history of doctoring citations

When I read their materials, I check sources like I do with anything. I have found them to be accurate.

Please document your claims from primary sources only with links.

I really do not care to read any Propagandized materials at all.
Then their sources are inaccurate. They are just like any anti-Mormon group. Any lie is OK, we are trying to get the Mormons. Right? Get Serious.
 
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Peter1000

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That is a logical fallacy of attacking the source likely based on rumor until you document your claim with Police Reports. Even if it is a true charge that does not disprove what they wrote.
Oh, like we are going to go to the police department and get all the police reports so we can satisfy your source requirements.
 
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Ironhold

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That is a logical fallacy of attacking the source likely based on rumor until you document your claim with Police Reports. Even if it is a true charge that does not disprove what they wrote.

Since you won't believe otherwise:

https://www.ksl.com/article/4643178...recordings-of-josh-and-steven-powell-revealed

Steven Powell, Josh Powell's father, propositioned Susan while trying to pressure Josh to leave the church. Audio recordings for Steven propositioning Susan have surfaced, while other recordings from Josh talking about his issues with his father have also surfaced.

Powell Home Videos Show Cordiality

Information on Steven Powell's trial for voyeurism and child inappropriate contentography; he was mainly being charged with filming two underage girls as they used the bathroom, but other photos and videos discovered by the police included voyeuristic images of Susan.

Steven claimed that he and Susan were having an affair, but Susan's kin are saying that Steven creeped him out and she wanted Josh to sever all ties.

Don't have time to read all of that?

Headline News uploaded a video about all of this to YouTube:


So yeah...

Steven Powell was a vile human being who was lusting after Susan when he wasn't being perverted towards other girls and women.

Deal with it.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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...So you're saying that you're willing to stand behind a horrible human being and a blight upon Christianity simply because you agree with his theological leanings?

Consider that for a moment.

No, I am saying all Christians are just Human and do sin. The point is If their theology is correct they can be quoted as a historical source. Even JS and BY were no where near being perfect. Study the people in the Bible. The only one who was perfect was Jesus. Paul before he was saved murdered Christians. David had sex with at least one woman who was not his wife and had her husband killed in battle. If you think perfection of human beings ..... to tired to continue that thought.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Since you won't believe otherwise:

https://www.ksl.com/article/4643178...recordings-of-josh-and-steven-powell-revealed

Steven Powell, Josh Powell's father, propositioned Susan while trying to pressure Josh to leave the church. Audio recordings for Steven propositioning Susan have surfaced, while other recordings from Josh talking about his issues with his father have also surfaced.

Powell Home Videos Show Cordiality

Information on Steven Powell's trial for voyeurism and child inappropriate contentography; he was mainly being charged with filming two underage girls as they used the bathroom, but other photos and videos discovered by the police included voyeuristic images of Susan.

Steven claimed that he and Susan were having an affair, but Susan's kin are saying that Steven creeped him out and she wanted Josh to sever all ties.

Don't have time to read all of that?

Headline News uploaded a video about all of this to YouTube:


So yeah...

Steven Powell was a vile human being who was lusting after Susan when he wasn't being perverted towards other girls and women.

Deal with it.

based on news reports, I died several times. News reports are not a valid source. Find the Police Reports and Court Documents.

As I said before, even if your claim about his use of inappropriate content is true, that does not negate what was said that is true.

Abraham for example told a leader of a country that his wife was his sister, not exactly perfect.

Are you saying you never lusted in your life? If you can say that then I am sure your problem is lying. As men, we deal with that temptation.

Encouragement:

Job 31:1 "I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a young woman.
 
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Ironhold

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Now that we did the rabbit hole of the guy. Deal with rest of the sources.
Majoring in minors while avoiding the main dish ..... forgot the rest.

I started with the Susan Powell incident as an example of what happens when critics toss out bloody shirts instead of actual, substantive arguments.

1. Josh Powell hadn't been an active member for several years when Susan disappeared.

2. The same Steve Powell that was pushing Josh to leave the church was the same Steve Powell that was perving on Susan.

3. Do you have any idea what it is to request a police report?

Whether you like it or not, the simple reality is that Susan's fate could have been anti-Mormon violence or brutal violence done on her by a sexual deviant that hid behind Christ's name.
 
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